Out of interest, when do you fail a card?

If you cannot produce the kanji after seeing the key word.

OR

If you cannot produce the kanji after reading the story.

You should not be doing the latter, ever.

The former, always. I'm not testing my ability to follow a set of instructions on how to write a character, i'm testing my ability to *remember* how to write a character.

If I get it wrong.

If I can't remember one or some of the primitives or if I get them in the wrong order that's a fail for me.

If I cannot reproduce the kanji, period, then it's a fail. Doesn't matter if the story was involved or not.

When I was actively learning RTK I was strict on reviews. A few months after finishing it, if the keyword is too similar to another kanji keyword I just write down both and pass it regardless. E.g plug up 窒 and plug 栓.

Kysen Wrote:When I was actively learning RTK I was strict on reviews. A few months after finishing it, if the keyword is too similar to another kanji keyword I just write down both and pass it regardless. E.g plug up 窒 and plug 栓.

Yeah, i tend to do this a bit too. Especially if it's a kanji i know i know and can easily write in the context of a word.

If they keywords are obnoxiously similar, I put a hint on the front side of the card that is meant to distinguish the character from other similar characters, sometimes a hint at the start of the story (but not including any elements), sometimes a reminder of a connotation that applies to one word and not the other, and sometimes just 'not (other keyword)!' Most recently with confusion between 'pursue' and 'chase' for an example of obnoxiously similar keywords.
If I can't get the character from the keyword + any such hints I've left, then I fail the card - I never waste time looking at the story, I'll remember the story the second I see the character anyway. (Actually, I don't even write the story down anywhere anyway, so I couldn't check the story if I wanted to.... )

So would most of you say it's okay if you have to hit 'S'/look at the story, and should not count as a failure?

I, personally, fail cards if I can't recall them with only any disambiguating hints that I might have left for myself. However, many people pass the card even if they look at the story (often choosing 'hard' if they need to look at the story). It's really a matter of personal choice. You'll eventually learn them either way.

The first time I see a kanji, I'll pass it even if I need its story.
After that, I'll pass it only if I can reproduce it (with or without story as there are some kanji I know without stories as I learned them when I was learning Chinese).

To me, though, the important thing is being able to make my kanji look good. I can write them as a collection of primitives just by recalling the story. However, If it isn't aesthetically pleasing, I will fail the card, then ask my brother for help.

P.S. Writing kanji in pen is impossible.

I use pencil.

Marble101 Wrote:The first time I see a kanji, I'll pass it even if I need its story.
After that, I'll pass it only if I can reproduce it (with or without story as there are some kanji I know without stories as I learned them when I was learning Chinese).

To me, though, the important thing is being able to make my kanji look good. I can write them as a collection of primitives just by recalling the story. However, If it isn't aesthetically pleasing, I will fail the card, then ask my brother for help.

P.S. Writing kanji in pen is impossible.

I write it in pen though. Writing in pencil makes it looker better though.

I took the recognition only route, I would right them out and it had to match the the answer or a failed it.

At first I tried going with the book reccommend route of just trying to do recog in the head and not writing, but then I tried writing down the kanji, ones thought I had down pat had bits missing so now I write them.

I saved production for "actuall Japanese cards" usually a listening card where I try to write out what I hear.

What I've learned is that: from RTK the goal is simple: be able to write it via a story (being able to write kanji) and second, being able to associate an English meaning to it. If you have trouble doing both(initially making a good story will take time but the key here is remembering how to write it via a story, eventually you will be able to recognize that kanji effortlessly) then you should fail the card. Only add the default amount of cards per day(20). So you don't overflow yourself with reviews you cannot handle.

Learning real japanese keywords is for another task but it's a great stepping stone for the initial goal of recognizing kanji characters.

ta12121 Wrote:What I've learned is that: from RTK the goal is simple: be able to write it via a story (being able to write kanji) and second, being able to associate an English meaning to it. If you have trouble doing both(initially making a good story will take time but the key here is remembering how to write it via a story, eventually you will be able to recognize that kanji effortlessly) then you should fail the card. Only add the default amount of cards per day(20). So you don't overflow yourself with reviews you cannot handle.

Learning real japanese keywords is for another task but it's a great stepping stone for the initial goal of recognizing kanji characters.

I would modify your fail criteria and simplify it.

For the RTK, you should fail a card simply if you can't write the kanji, period.

If you can write it from the keyword alone but can't recall the story? Pass

The front of your card should only have the keyword. The reasoning is simple, if you want to use the RTK to write the kanji, then what are the chances when you want to write a kanji that you will have the story in front of you?

I'm relatively new at this, but my personal 'fail criteria' depends on how long I've been studying a card. If I've had it for a while and it's closer to being mature (anki hasn't yet rated ANY of my cards mature, so this is relative), if I can't write/draw/produce the kanji correctly, I fail it, period. On the other hand, if it's a relatively new card, I'll pass myself if I more or less get it right (for example, if I put the primitives on the wrong sides, or next to one another instead of on top of one another, or forget a stroke); ie, as long as I have a basic idea of what it is comprised of and what it means.

smoshea Wrote:I'm relatively new at this, but my personal 'fail criteria' depends on how long I've been studying a card. If I've had it for a while and it's closer to being mature (anki hasn't yet rated ANY of my cards mature, so this is relative), if I can't write/draw/produce the kanji correctly, I fail it, period. On the other hand, if it's a relatively new card, I'll pass myself if I more or less get it right (for example, if I put the primitives on the wrong sides, or next to one another instead of on top of one another, or forget a stroke); ie, as long as I have a basic idea of what it is comprised of and what it means.

You *can* do this... but i'd probably say you're better off just failing it. The goal is to be able to write the character, not just remember the list of primitives in it. There's nothing particularly wrong with your strategy; as long as you do eventually fail them then it'll force you to learn them properly. But it's more complex than necessary.

One of the things it's best to get over quickly when using SRS is that "failing is bad" idea you got from school. Once you stop seeing failing as something to be ashamed of, you'll ditch the need to give yourself partial credit.

vix86 Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:What I've learned is that: from RTK the goal is simple: be able to write it via a story (being able to write kanji) and second, being able to associate an English meaning to it. If you have trouble doing both(initially making a good story will take time but the key here is remembering how to write it via a story, eventually you will be able to recognize that kanji effortlessly) then you should fail the card. Only add the default amount of cards per day(20). So you don't overflow yourself with reviews you cannot handle.

Learning real japanese keywords is for another task but it's a great stepping stone for the initial goal of recognizing kanji characters.

I would modify your fail criteria and simplify it.

For the RTK, you should fail a card simply if you can't write the kanji, period.

If you can write it from the keyword alone but can't recall the story? Pass

The front of your card should only have the keyword. The reasoning is simple, if you want to use the RTK to write the kanji, then what are the chances when you want to write a kanji that you will have the story in front of you?

That makes prefect sense actually, that's why I decided to delete my RTK deck after 2.5 years of using it. It's because I'm noticing that it's more productive to learn to write the kanji from it's reading and japanese meanings instead. One could say just add JPN keywords but I feel that would take a lot of time (and starting it all over again but with JPN keywords may not be good for me time-wise). Then again, I'll play around with it and see what happens.