Yeah there are a lot of jobs where getting JLPT2 or 3 are good enough.
My company would kill for a certified mechanic with even JLPT4.

erlog Wrote:Here's the question I'll pose to you. Every single year both the test and the test takers change. Which of those variables is more likely to fluctuate wildly and which one is more likely to be fairly solid? Which one should you be worrying about more than the other?

The students could vary for all sorts of reasons, and would almost certainly vary depending on country. The test itself should not vary wildly (and I doubt it does, knowing the pace of change in Japan). It should however be on a general trend of getting closer to doing what it says it does, ie accurately estimate Japanese level. It seems absurd to me that someone would get extra marks for correctly answering an obscure vocab or kanji question that a lot of others fail. But then if that same person misses an easy question it wouldn't cost them much because hey it was "easy". In all likelihood, the "easy" question is more fundamental to Japanese and the getting the obscure answers may reflect just cramming from the official wordlists. The fact is, if someone can be objectively determined to know the material, they should pass the test irrespective of how anyone else does.

What erlog says is true. However, you have to keep in mind that the reason many learners idolize the JLPT1 is simply because they're not even at the level to be able to realize how limited a subset of language skill the JLPT1 actually represents. When you're that far from mastery, attaining a goal such as the JLPT1 appears such a distant, lofty, and unimaginably difficult feat that all who have managed to do so are surely gods of Japanese. They just lack the insight to realise that this isn't the case.

Anyone who has passed JLPT1 has reached the level where they can competently assess their own skill level, and they can keenly see the difference between themselves and natives. The majority of learners never make it that far.

zigmonty Wrote:

erlog Wrote:I think every once in a while it's necessary to remind people that all the jawing and clawing we're doing in order to pass the highest level of this thing leaves us with the same understanding of Japanese as...a reasonably well-educated 14 or 15 year old. Even then, that 14 or 15 year old also has fluent speech, a much better handle on nuts and bolts grammar, and an innate understanding of many idioms.

Which is why every time this comes up (no, you haven't offered any fresh insights), many of us suggest that maybe, just maybe, trying to compete with japanese people on japanese ability a bit of a fools errand. You know, there are other skills in life, right?

Here's the thing, my japanese ability is *not* on the level of your average 14-15 year old. I'm not fluent and i couldn't pass the JLPT N1. But i'm a qualified engineer, and i can read and understand technical japanese at a reasonably high level. I can read and understand stuff that even some native engineers would be baffled by. Guys like me aren't hired for our japanese ability. We're hired for our other skills. A JLPT cert is simply piece of mind that we've attained some level of competence in the language.

If your only skill is watching dramas and anime then... yeah... there are millions of natives who will always be able to do that better than you.

Why do people think that the only jobs involving japanese are either "english teacher" or "translator"?

I never claimed to specifically be giving fresh insights on any of this, and I don't see how the comparison to native speakers isn't a useful one overall. As I said, the higher levels of 英検 and TOEIC are higher than JLPT 1. This doesn't mean lower levels of those tests are invalid or that people don't get jobs involving English with lower levels of English than that. I was pointing out that the specific kind of things the JLPT is measuring for aren't actually that useful when it comes to getting a job. Also, that passing JLPT 1 specifically is not a skill in and of itself because it corresponds to such a low level when compared to native speakers.

I can tell that you didn't actually read my post very carefully because you're agreeing with me while being combative and arrogant about it. The main point of my post was simply that JLPT 1 isn't the be all and end all, and the thrust of your argument in forcefully disagreeing with me about that is saying that as an engineer you get by just fine with your JLPT level not being as high as JLPT 1. Welp, you sure destroyed my argument that JLPT 1 isn't the be all and end all.

Your specific example of being an engineer also reinforced the point I was making. A Japanese 14 or 15 year old couldn't do the job you do as an engineer and yet that's what the JLPT is preparing you for. Having JLPT 1 on your résumé isn't going to do as much for you as having the engineering experience or the specific knowledge of technical Japanese. I understand you said that you're not doing it for your résumé, but you're still agreeing with me.

I also don't really like your dig at translators. Just because you crunch a bunch of numbers or whatever with your technical Japanese doesn't mean people who write professionally for a living don't have skills that are just as worthwhile or valuable as yours are but in fundamentally different areas. Why is it people like you only ever see value in things like numbers, and completely ignore the importance of art and being able to communicate ideas properly.<--See I can be a condescending jerk about career skills and make judgements about other people based on absolutely nothing just as well as you can!

I passed JLPT1 6 months ago and I still fail to understand/have to rewind and relisten plenty when watching anime. It's not going to be much good if I go to an interview and ask the interviewer to repeat what they said every so often. >_>

You already claimed that there are only a few foreigners in japan with jlpt level 1, that alone shows how hard it is.

JLPT IS relevant to each person for many different reasons. Saying it isnt good to get a job in japan doesnt mean it loses anything, maybe just a small percentage of usefulness (say the amount of people in the world taking the jlpt to get a job in japan over the amount of people in the world taking jlpt).

When it comes to get a scholarship in japan, JLPT does matter a lot.

At least for what I heard from friends that went to japan, saying you have JLPT1 to a professor or friend that actually knows what that means turns you into a completely different person in their eyes.

Yeah, I completely agree its not the end of learning japanese. But it is like the final mark you can test if you're not actually living in japan.

dizmox Wrote:I passed JLPT1 6 months ago and I still fail to understand/have to rewind and relisten plenty when watching anime. It's not going to be much good if I go to an interview and ask the interviewer to repeat what they said every so often. >_>

Yeah, I don't understand what people who are below N2 level are talking about when they say they understand 90% of anime or whatever. I'm not sure whether I passed or not, but I'm right around N1 level and I miss a lot when watching anime.

Oh, I believe 90%, missing out 10% is quite a lot isn't it?

Not sure, it's hard to tell. I'm not sure how you measure really.

I'd say now I understand 90% or more, but even around when I passed JLPT2 I think I was closer to 60 or 70%?

These numbers are all made up, haha. (I'll note that I've been able to understand, for example, an anime about high school in its entirety for a long time. So genre matters.)

I do remember someone saying that JLPT N1 is only important to get your first job. Was that Jarvik? I forget. I think it was someone here.

You can say the same thing about your college degree =)

I feel like there's so much stuff in N2/N1 that I've never seen yet in "real" Japanese so I'm really not sure how it applies to real life... especially the grammar. And reading is a much different beast than listening, so I wouldn't be surprised if people can understand anime and not be able to read.

erlog Wrote:Also, that passing JLPT 1 specifically is not a skill in and of itself because it corresponds to such a low level when compared to native speakers.

It's a test for non-native speakers of Japanese. Why is what level it compares to native speakers relevant?

Because language abilities are ultimately judged against the native standard?

[Zgarbas]

astendra Wrote:Because language abilities are ultimately judged against the native standard?

Nope.

Conversational level(which is where most language learners aim to be)
Fluent level(usually reserved for people who either have a real passion for the language, or have been studying it for a long time, or need the language to advance in their career or because they move to a country where the language is spoken and what not)
Native(or native-like) level is usually reserved for natives, people who have been raised bilingual, people who have moved and lived in the country where it's spoken, etc.

English is kind of expelled from this rule since it's so common, though. But still, most foreigners don't reach native-like level without living in that country because there is only so much books and the media can teach you. Heck, even when you're a native you can stumble across things you don't understand or make mistakes of your own. It's ok; no one cares as long as they can understand you.

Languages are there so people can communicate. Everything above that level is merely a detail. Can you hold a proper conversation with someone in that language? Can you get your way around the country if you're there? If you had to do your work in that language, could you? That's great; you know all you NEED to know. Nothing says that you should stop there, but unless you're into the language biz there's no NEED to do so. Only the pricks will judge =)

And I think any official proof you have that you know what you're doing is great. My mom still takes yearly exams to prove that she knows what she's doing, despite having 20 years in the field. My sister is taking her ACCAs despite working with the Big4. I took my CPE after I got my authorization to translate. It's always nice to have an objective piece of paper as proof of your abilities in case anyone wonders, ya know?

Well, of course. I didn't say anything about goals. Neither did I mean to come off as judgmental. The problem being raised was the difficulty of assessing real-life skills through a written, standardized test. Since the society in which the language is used primarily consists of natives, I figure their level is indeed relevant to such a test, since it to some degree decides how well we can interact with their environment. It's also their language we are trying to learn, so their level would denote the 'standard'.

erlog Wrote:I never claimed to specifically be giving fresh insights on any of this, and I don't see how the comparison to native speakers isn't a useful one overall. As I said, the higher levels of 英検 and TOEIC are higher than JLPT 1. This doesn't mean lower levels of those tests are invalid or that people don't get jobs involving English with lower levels of English than that. I was pointing out that the specific kind of things the JLPT is measuring for aren't actually that useful when it comes to getting a job. Also, that passing JLPT 1 specifically is not a skill in and of itself because it corresponds to such a low level when compared to native speakers.

BS. There are millions of researchers, engineers, etc who read and write scientific papers in english despite it not being their native language. When you read these papers, it is evident that they're not natives and there are mistakes nearly every sentence. I'm talking grammatical mistakes far below JLPT1 equivalent (complete lack of *any* plurals is a typical example). It doesn't matter. Their idea is interesting, so you read past the mistakes.

The problem is the straw man you built. Who the hell ever said JLPT1 represented native fluency? This was a thread for people who were taking the test. Unless i missed something (quite possible), none of them expressed the view that they didn't think native speakers could pass. Hell, i've been told that a smart 6th grader probably could (pass, not ace). Who exactly were you arguing with? The fact is, the language skills of a smart 6th grader are adequate for many, many jobs. And having recognition of that *does* help your career in many cases. As Jarvik7 said, for some roles, *any* level of japanese competency is a bonus.

erlog Wrote:I can tell that you didn't actually read my post very carefully because you're agreeing with me while being combative and arrogant about it. The main point of my post was simply that JLPT 1 isn't the be all and end all, and the thrust of your argument in forcefully disagreeing with me about that is saying that as an engineer you get by just fine with your JLPT level not being as high as JLPT 1. Welp, you sure destroyed my argument that JLPT 1 isn't the be all and end all.

No, you argued that having JLPT1 on your resume is a negative. Considering the reaction i got at work when i showed them my N2 certificate, i find that extremely hard to believe. If you're going for a job as a proof reader at a newspaper... yeah, i can see how putting JLPT1 on your resume may seem odd. But for any job where japanese ability isn't the primary thing you're being hired for?

erlog Wrote:Your specific example of being an engineer also reinforced the point I was making. A Japanese 14 or 15 year old couldn't do the job you do as an engineer and yet that's what the JLPT is preparing you for. Having JLPT 1 on your résumé isn't going to do as much for you as having the engineering experience or the specific knowledge of technical Japanese. I understand you said that you're not doing it for your résumé, but you're still agreeing with me.

No, i did it for my resume. And it was one of the factors that got me an early promotion. Engineer who can speak broken japanese > engineer who can't. I never claimed that having JLPT1 was sufficient to apply for an engineering job, the degree is kinda required too. But having it puts you above someone with an otherwise equal resume.

erlog Wrote:I also don't really like your dig at translators. Just because you crunch a bunch of numbers or whatever with your technical Japanese doesn't mean people who write professionally for a living don't have skills that are just as worthwhile or valuable as yours are but in fundamentally different areas. Why is it people like you only ever see value in things like numbers, and completely ignore the importance of art and being able to communicate ideas properly.<--See I can be a condescending jerk about career skills and make judgements about other people based on absolutely nothing just as well as you can!

I wasn't digging at translators. Hell, there are two of them in my group at work, and they help make up for my lacking japanese. I highly respect several of the members of this board who are translators and the level they've achieved. I was simply lashing out at the idea that translator-level abilities are required for every job. The time investment to become a good translator is huge, more than those with another skill they are trying to learn can usually afford to invest. That's why good technical translators are so damn expensive. I'll take a slightly less than fluent translator who understands the concepts that are being communicated over a fluent bilingual any day.

I think in the end it comes down to this:

Does JLPT 1 show that you have mastered Japanese?
No, it shows that you have a decent understanding of the language and are ready to move onto more advanced study. It also shows that you have a relatively advanced level compared to other non-native speakers.

Does JLPT 1 help you get a job?
It depends completely on the job. Due to the lack of people learning Japanese and the time required to learn it to a high level there are some jobs where even a lower level is considered an asset when combined with other skills (the most obvious one being your own native language). However, it wont be anywhere near enough for a job that requires native or near native ability.

I just have to point this out.

when people say 'native level', that could mean any number of things.
I would say that I am a native English speaker. yet I haven't achieved the highest level of English fluency. When I, for example, read a Charles Dickens book I come across 5-15 words per page that I do not know the definition of. My younger sister has an even lower vocabulary. 1% of Americans are illiterate all together even though many of them are natives. I know an 11 year old boy who can't read just because the school he went to didn't/couldn't teach him in a way he could understand.

so when you say 'I have native-like fluency' that might mean you can hardly follow the Anne of green gables children edition, or maybe it means you can read Charles Dickens' David Copperfield and never miss a word. only the natives who study their own language for years with set intent actually reach a level like that.

maybe you have fluency like some natives. but it really depends how much that native reads or writes, how much they enjoy linguistics. I know many English speaking people who don't even know all the difference between an adjective and an adverb.

@erlog, you have strange timing. Kind of like using a wedding toast to discuss the pointlessness of marriage, give details of your own unhappy coupling and point out the divorce statistics (and getting them wrong).


JLPT is something to celebrate. It's fantastic that this forum lets people connect immediately with others around the globe experiencing the same pre-exam jitters and post-exam euphoria and relief. I've enjoyed following people's progress - some from zero to JLPT1! Congrats to everyone.

Thora Wrote:@erlog, you have strange timing. Kind of like using a wedding toast to discuss the pointlessness of marriage, give details of your own unhappy coupling and point out the divorce statistics (and getting them wrong).

JLPT is something to celebrate. It's fantastic that this forum lets people connect immediately with others around the globe experiencing the same pre-exam jitters and post-exam euphoria and relief. I've enjoyed following people's progress - some from zero to JLPT1! Congrats to everyone.

This.

I dont think people came to this thread to have someone write at length about how useless this test is. Yes, it is not the be-all, end-all and doesnt mean you are king of Japanese if you pass N1. But its still an accomplishment and a good goal to set on the way to mastery (or whatever one`s final goal with the language is). Friends of mine that now work at Japanese companies all took it and had it on their resume and they all said it helped.

I find myself coming to this forum less and less because I always end up running into some post of someone who knows better than everyone ruining the party. Yes, none of us will ever work at a Japanese video game company or as interpretors for the UN, so why even try. Feels bad, man.

Hey, I almost got a job as a UN liason for a Buddhist sect (which frankly creeped me out), but they chose the son of a member instead

julianjalapeno Wrote:

Thora Wrote:@erlog, you have strange timing. Kind of like using a wedding toast to discuss the pointlessness of marriage, give details of your own unhappy coupling and point out the divorce statistics (and getting them wrong).

JLPT is something to celebrate. It's fantastic that this forum lets people connect immediately with others around the globe experiencing the same pre-exam jitters and post-exam euphoria and relief. I've enjoyed following people's progress - some from zero to JLPT1! Congrats to everyone.

This.

I dont think people came to this thread to have someone write at length about how useless this test is. Yes, it is not the be-all, end-all and doesnt mean you are king of Japanese if you pass N1. But its still an accomplishment and a good goal to set on the way to mastery (or whatever one`s final goal with the language is). Friends of mine that now work at Japanese companies all took it and had it on their resume and they all said it helped.

I find myself coming to this forum less and less because I always end up running into some post of someone who knows better than everyone ruining the party. Yes, none of us will ever work at a Japanese video game company or as interpretors for the UN, so why even try. Feels bad, man.

I never said the JLPT was useless, but go ahead and rail against me for saying that. My post was pointing out that JLPT isn't as useful for people's careers as I've directly read people make it out to be, and also that it's not as high of a level or as difficult as I've directly read people make it out to be. Me pointing this out doesn't mean I think the test is useless. In the real world there exist shades of gray between black and white.

I don't think the JLPT is useless. I wouldn't take it if I thought it was useless. I just think it's not as useful in a lot of the areas people like to claim it's useful. I'll admit that I wasn't really responding to anyone directly who had posted recently with that post. I was just elaborating on my thoughts on the JLPT.

I also find your last paragraph interesting. I used to post here a lot more and read this forum a lot more too. I started to post less because I got sick of having to defend every single thing I wrote like a masters thesis against people who don't have as much experience with Japanese as I do or don't seem to understand English well enough to actually read the things I was writing.

People will either find my advice or my perspective useful or they won't. I will tell you that I've been studying Japanese for a while. I made a bunch of mistakes along the way based on terrible advice or things that ended up being completely wrong. I also don't necessarily mean people on this forum when I say I was given terrible advice. Some of the worst advice I've ever gotten has been from my Japanese teachers, and one of the most inaccurate descriptions of the JLPT I've ever read has been on the official JLPT site.

So a lot of you should stop taking so much personal offense to what I was writing because chances are I probably wasn't taking issue with you directly. There's a reason I didn't quote anyone directly so much when I was making those arguments. I wasn't going around pointing fingers shouting "You're wrong! Objection!" at anyone on this forum.

I took the JLPT on Sunday like the rest of you. I'll take it again no matter what next July. So the idea that I'm just coming into this thread to tell everyone taking the JLPT how useless it is and how dumb they are just doesn't really hold any water. All of the stuff I'm saying also applies to me directly.

I can dig all that. The impression I got from your initial post was a bit different, but I can relate with you here.

I think people should be realistic about this test, but also we should try to encourage each other along the way. If passing N5 gives someone the confidence to keep going then I think it was worth it, but for those beginners who look down the road at N1 and think it's the finish line, its really just another benchmark.

btw, maybe I'm alone here, but was the N1 listening on Sunday really hard? Definitely not my strong point, but I got hosed at that part. Vocab and grammar were surprisingly easy though.

Quote:I also find your last paragraph interesting. I used to post here a lot more and read this forum a lot more too. I started to post less because I got sick of having to defend every single thing I wrote like a masters thesis against people who don't have as much experience with Japanese as I do or don't seem to understand English well enough to actually read the things I was writing.

Have you tried looking the other way?? Maybe when you write things like this people just cant let it pass, even if its true its arrogant to say such things.

You should mind what you are talking about in each thread you post.

When you say things about JLPT in a thread that was supposed to just make ppl say if they did and how well they did the exam, that's more faulty than making grammar mistakes or not understanding "english well enough to read your post".

In other forums it would be called trolling which usually leads to flamewar. Im not saying that was your intention, though.

Erlog your original comment was something like 'having it on your resume means nothing, next to nothing or is a negative'. To me that sounds like a pretty damning assesment of the JLPT (pretty much all black with a tiny hint of gray if you will). You can't really blame people for arguing against that if they disagree, even if seems your actual opinion isn't quite as extreme as that comment might have suggested.

I also think it'd be nice to have another higher level to aim for after N1, but I think once you get to that level there would probably need to be quite a big change in the style of the test to make it more worthwhile anyway (e.g. writing, speaking, non-multiple choice questions).

Maybe if people didn't take their opinions so seriously, we wouldn't have discussions like these.