I've come to believe that particles are one of the biggest pains in the keister in using Japanese. I've studied these little buggers in several different textbooks, read descriptions and rules of usage on websites, in books, and received explanations from Japanese tutors and teachers. I can probably give you a textbook explanation on how and when to use them, but I swear that when it comes time to actually use the bastards, I am completely incapable of putting the right one in there. Particularly with で and に、and to a lesser extent を。

Granted, part of the confusion comes because there is a bit of crossover sometimes. But I swear that every time I use で or に, whatever Japanese person is reading it, or whomever I happen to be speaking to, will correct me and say it should be whichever one of the two I didn't use. To make matters worse (and where the confusion truly sets in), I will correct it the next time I use it (with the same exact sentance, even), only to be re-corrected and told by the next Japanese person who reads/hears it that the way I'd orginally had it was correct. It's gotten to the point that I swear the particles are completely interchangeable despite the textbook rules, and that telling gaijin to switch で and に is just a nation-wide joke that Japanese people play on foreigners attempting to speak their language.

Another part of it is that often it seems to me that the Japanese sort of gloss over and don't really speak all the particles when speaking (much as us English speakers sort of breeze past a lot of the "a, the, on, at" type of words in the way where we say them, but they sort of blend in and are hard to hear for non-native speakers), so I don't always get the re-inforcement of hearing them in natural usage unless I'm really paying attention.

I guess I'm not really looking for advice here (I've got multiple texts, books, and sites to look back to, after all, and at least one of the books is devoted entirely to particles), but just venting my frustration at these little tacks on the seat of learning Japanese.

Maybe I can take it as a small consolation that so many of my former students had so much trouble with in, at, and on.

As an exercise, why don't you describe for us your understanding of them now. Imagine you are a teacher explaining how to use them to a complete beginner. That way people can tell you very concretely where you may be mistaken in your understanding.

We all know that in Japanese you can write "people," "study" and "Japanese" in various orders. It is particles that make sense out of all of it. I feel that particles are the hardest thing to learn as a beginner student of Japanese, because it is an entirely new concept. I have to agree that they are just like "in" and "at" in English, but much more extensive. On thing that I would suggest is to consider 私が having two words 私 and が. You said that you have many books, but do you have a book for Japanese students?

six8ten Wrote:I guess I'm not really looking for advice here (I've got multiple texts, books, and sites to look back to, after all, and at least one of the books is devoted entirely to particles), but just venting my frustration at these little tacks on the seat of learning Japanese.

I understand your frustration. I've been learning Japanese for almost a decade now and I still don't feel I have a good grasp of particle usage.

One suggestion that I can offer is use sentence decks for learning words and try and read or skim the sentences when you review. I suspect that with enough exposure you can eventually gain a solid enough grasp of particle usage. After all this is pretty much how kids eventually learn the correct particle usage. Through enough exposure to hearing where particles go, they eventually figure out when and where they can and can't use them.

Prepositions will be a problem whatever language you learn. Japanese is no exception. If anything, there are very few particles in Japanese, making it easier than in most other languages.

six8ten Wrote:Another part of it is that often it seems to me that the Japanese sort of gloss over and don't really speak all the particles when speaking (much as us English speakers sort of breeze past a lot of the "a, the, on, at" type of words in the way where we say them, but they sort of blend in and are hard to hear for non-native speakers), so I don't always get the re-inforcement of hearing them in natural usage unless I'm really paying attention.

This is precisely why I think reading is so useful. None of that is an issue with written language, so you can get the exposure you need to learn how to use them.