I think there is a thread like this already but couldn't find it. The question I ask here is that: if you were given the funds to make a language class(Japanese in this case). How would you teach it to people? What type of methods would you give them? How would you explain that it would take a solid amount of effort for complete fluency(all skills).

On a side note: I was just searching around for fun sentences to add to my sentence deck and I was searching for some youtube videos along the way. I always thought "What type of reaction would someone get if they watched this in Japanese?"

(Imagine giving this to a beginner class. They'd be running away from Japanese)

I wouldn't waste time explaining to people that it will take them a long time to become fluent in all aspects of the language. Anyone with half a brain knows that's true of any language - anyone who thinks otherwise is either in denial or thinks very highly of their own capacity. Either way, that explanation is simply a waste of time unless you have a personal goal of scaring the less serious students out of your class.

The way I'd -like- to structure a Japanese class is to have an introductory lesson, tell them about the importance of Kanji, and then have them go do RTK and come back in three months to start learning the language to go with the characters, but that's not realistic.

Once they are there in the classroom, I'd go with a light-on-kanji or even no-kanji approach (hiragana and katakana from the start, though. They can have a week of romaji crutches before it's all kana, I suppose.)

I'd focus on grammar explanations and start with plain forms, because that's the direction the grammar logically builds in and gets people soonest able to get from written words to dictionary entries for any independent study/reading they do. (But for various reasons, like not getting lynched by a mob frightened of the monstrous army of plain-speaking barbarians I'm creating, ahem, I'd get to basic formal with masu/desu conjugations within 60 days, closer to 30 if possible.)

Ideally I'd want to give them a fair amount of text and matching audio to work with, staying in the 1500 most common words as much as possible (that's the 1500 most common words from a mixed corpus of fiction, scripts, textbooks and magazine articles or some such representative set - not the 1500 most common words from the leading financial newspaper, ahem.)

Partly I say that because the first few hundred of the most common words are almost undefinable, intrinsically part of the grammar (hello いる、　しまう、　and 気) - those words are ideally taught with a teacher to ask questions of, unlike the average noun or verb that has only one meaning or at worst a few closely related meanings. Partly I say it because I would have such a class be quite limited in vocabulary - face-to-face class time is all about building grammar. Memorizing is a fundamentally solitary activity anyway.

And partly I'm trying to say I want a set of example dialogues that are very much what is called 'comprehensible input'; use the same words (and common ones) over again in different ways to reinforce the vocabulary and demonstrate the range of the grammar.

Oh, and of course, my dialogues would be fresh and interesting, and flawlessly performed. There'd probably be a major cinematic film based on them, they'd be so exciting!

Well, okay, you can only do so much with the other restrictions around example dialogues, but for goodness sake, I'd teach 'dropped' 'lost' 'stole' and 'police box' in the same lesson where something important is stolen from the characters instead of asking directions at a police box in one chapter, dropping a pencil in another chapter, and using 'lost' and 'stole' only to chastise a child character.

(You did say we had the funds to -create- the course from scratch right? )

Just read your post(long one as it is). I get where your coming from when you say don't really go explaining to people about how long it would take to learn another language fully (most people know it will take a lot of time. Like a few years or even more than that).
I think the first thing I would do is: get people motivated and get them to explain reasons for learning the language. In the long-term, that drive, that motivation is what leads people to succeed. It's critical at the beginning stages but once you reach the advanced levels,you may not even need any motivation keep going on, since you've got a good grasp on things.

Introduction about the Japanese language, what it is, what are the writing systems, how does it compare to other languages like English,etc. Then kana would probably be a good way of mastering basic Japanese. Kanji should slowly be implemented, as it's scary in the beginning. Also introducing an srs deck for the class, would be helpful for everyone and what is the srs/how to use it well.

Show enjoyable material that people would enjoy or at least strive to learn/understand. Most people are interested in anime,movies,games,books,manga(basically interesting native material). Relating the learning to what they want, will make class room learning fun and effective.

Although I really have no experience teaching a class, so take what I say with a grain of salt here.

Stress the importance of studying on their own time. Let them know how much fun it can be to actually immerse themselves in the language. Probably assign homework that would include videos or readings that are interesting. Basically, make sure that they know that in order to get good, they have to do a lot of work on their own.

During class I'd try to structure the class about half and half between going over new material in a sort of studious manner, answering questions. The other half would be about interaction -- playing games, conversing, trying to get them out of their "I'm too shy to speak" shell. I feel it adds a little bit more fun into it, and especially at a beginner level, will probably be their only outlet to produce any Japanese, so I'd give it to them.

In short, I'd let them they have to do a lot of work outside the classroom (and it doesn't even have to suck!), introduce new material, and use class time as an outlet for production and interaction.

I'd basically do Japanese: The Spoken Language, but I would do it in Japanese script rather than romaji.

I would spend time at the beginning getting down basic pronunciation, hiragana, and katakana.

Then I would give handouts of Japanese: The Spoken Language, but with all the romaji replaced with kana (the Core Conversations are already available in Japanese script, but I would also do it for the grammar explanations).

I would do JSL pretty much the way it's usually done. Three days a week the students would do activities from JSL entirely in Japanese, with a native Japanese speaker, and English would be forbidden in classroom. Two days a week I would instruct the students primarily in English, giving them grammar explanations, lessons on reading and writing, and tips.

Kanji would be introduced gradually. After one year of study I would give them RTK w/ Anki or this site as a summer homework assignment if they wish to continue. After that we would be able to use kanji more regularly. I'd try to do one book of JSL each year for three years.

Well, I actually have 6 years of experience teaching Japanese (as a TA, but functional duties the same as the actual lecturers minus the actual schedule planning), and I think I would basically follow the JSL idea although it would be nice if there were a new edition.

First year focus mostly on speaking and *reading* (i.e. not deciphering) simple stuff written in kana and some kanji. Second year increase the amount of reading but still emphasize the speaking. Third year split into two tracks -- an intensive speaking class and an intensive reading class (majors should take both of course) and continue that in fourth year.

Unfortunately my dream textbooks don't exist, so I'm not sure how I'd do this in a practical sense. But after I get my PhD this may become a non-theoretical issue...

All of the above, but I would also have a well resourced "Japanese" room on campus stocked with as much material as I could gather, Students could take out books, borrow graded reading material, play games in Japanese, watch DVDs etc or just turn up to practise their conversation. I would also hire a TA to be staff it, to be there to answer questions regarding study, translation, and run informal classes. I have seen this work for English, but it does take someone with a great deal of dedication to set up and maintain.

I"d want to have five classes a week, but assuming only 3 classes a week, I'd have the classes on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

I'd have a target number of new words to introduce per lesson. Say 40 new words per lesson on average. It would probably start lower, and then ramp up as the students level increases and once they have acquired some writing ability. So if they get exposure to 120 words per week for say 40 weeks, that means they'll have been exposed to 4800 words by the end of the year (in practice, it may be less or more, I don't know). I'd have a notebook for each class in which I track which vocabulary has been introduced. I'd give each student a notebook to use for the same purpose. I'd also encourage them to collect new words for themselves too. Also if a student asks in class "how do you say X?" or other otherwise unplanned vocabulary pops up in the class, that will be added to the lists too. I'd want my students to be hungry for new words.

I'd try to speak Japanese only in class as much as possible, making heavy use of the currently known words. Students are allowed to answer me in English or Japanese. For the most part, there would be little or no forced use of Japanese. Grammar would not be taught in any fixed order. I might have something like a printout of something like taekim on hand to have some vague idea of useful new patterns to introduce. Most likely I wouldn't teach grammar much except to answer student's questions, or I would limit it to one day a week. I would teach hiragana from day one by teaching japanese words that use the characters, rather than going through the hiragana chart. Romaji would never be used. Kanji would be introduced loosely following Heisig order while teaching vocabulary. Katakana would start being introduced at some point in the same way as hiragana.

At the beginning, the lessons would probably involve a lot of story telling involving pictures and drawing on the black board and asking the students easy questions (which they are allowed to answer in English). I'd instruct (in Japanese of course) the students to write all the new vocabulary into their notebooks maybe at the end of the lesson. And I'd also do various vocabulary building games. Basically listening and vocabulary building would be the focus at first. Once the students are ready, I'd probably get them reading stories and using dictionaries a lot more. This might make up half of each lesson, or I'd devote 1 day a week to it.

The big question I believe is what is the goal of your Japanese class. Is it for beginners? Everyone was assuming they were making a class for every level for multiple years. Direction is important. If it is beginners you won't be making beginners fluent, especially if their age range is 18-20. Also if these classes are aimed at students that are thinking "Well I'm kind of interested in Japanese, but I need to focus on my major's classes (Math, Science, etc.)." Then you need to really readjust your class(es).

Assuming usual situation at US campuses for Japanese study on MWF.
Week 1 & 2: Hiragana study. Start basic study on 何々は何々です pattern.
Week 3 & 4: Phase out romaji. Start on Katakana.
Week 4-8: Continue using kana and drilling basic grammar patterns
Week 8-16: Phase in kanji. Try to work in RTK

I would make sure that whatever textbook I'm using, that I can continue it for 4 years and that stuff builds in a decent matter. If I have it my way class would be 5 days a week, but this isn't very realistic. You could up the difficulty level if its a well put together Japanese course and has lots of classes done in Japanese.

A lot of these class ideas are assuming that every student is as obsessive and driven to reach fluency as many of us. This isn't always the case, especially if some people are having to split their time between a language and having to learn high level Math for an IT or science major. Even humanities classes can be rough because it interrupts the immersion factor.

ta12121 Wrote:

(Imagine giving this to a beginner class. They'd be running away from Japanese)

I don't see what the big deal is....there's a bunch of vocab in there you can learn.

Hyperborea Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:First year focus mostly on speaking and *reading* (i.e. not deciphering) simple stuff written in kana and some kanji.

What do you mean by "deciphering" in comparison to "reading"? Isn't "deciphering" just an early stage of reading where you are groping around more for meaning?

Thanks.

By deciphering I meant having a selection that contains a huge amount of unknown vocab and structures, so that what you're doing is just constantly referring to dictionaries or vocabulary lists. This isn't reading, it's decoding or deciphering. It's OK do to this some on your own, but it's a waste of class time and not as productive as people think.

yudantaiteki Wrote:By deciphering I meant having a selection that contains a huge amount of unknown vocab and structures, so that what you're doing is just constantly referring to dictionaries or vocabulary lists. This isn't reading, it's decoding or deciphering. It's OK do to this some on your own, but it's a waste of class time and not as productive as people think.

This basically explains some of my Junior High English classes exactly. The students run to the back of their book for every word they can't figure out and I really feel it creates a certain dependence on J<>E dictionaries and a certain degree of mental stagnation. And ya, it wastes so much class time.

ta12121 Wrote:"What type of reaction would someone get if they watched this in Japanese?"

Some would certainly see a challenge in it, but I suppose not even Japanese themselves would be able to read a few kanjis in there without furigana unless they are otakus, dedicated to bleach whatsoever. On top of that, for what is it needed? I mean, being able to read stuff like that? I find this is not Japanese but purely "Bleach Japanese" that is needed if one is interested in watching and following the Anime as a series or whatever. Then it would be naturally useful to learn these words as vocabs, but otherwise I'd say your pupils would feel kinda screwed up when you showed them this video (when they know already the basics of Japanese, comprehending there are kanji, kana etc., getting the hang of that what you show them will never appear outside of bleach).

Edit: The only word I hovered over with Rikaisama was 呪文 lol

i think, understanding what it really takes to learn a language, there isn't much wrong with classes as they are now. The focus should be on grammar and conversation in class, like it already is, and the rest left for you to do on your own.

i guess my ideal class would be a structured exchange, with half japanese students learning english and half students learning japanese, and the topics to discuss given beforehand so you can learn the right vocabulary, and then just practise conversation in one language at a time.

btw, yeah, i wouldn't show them that video, i mean, it's basically just nonsense spells... i wouldn't show a class learning english nonsense either.

EDIT: unless it was the jabberwocky. that's grammatically useful.

Realism Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

(Imagine giving this to a beginner class. They'd be running away from Japanese)

I don't see what the big deal is....there's a bunch of vocab in there you can learn.

True but let's say someone who has no background of Japanese or Asian languages. They would be annoyed at not understanding it. Some may even challenge it and try to understand it. It isn't hard per say to read it but it's just something I find fun/interesting to learn. Even if it's not used in real-life situations.

Tori-kun Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:"What type of reaction would someone get if they watched this in Japanese?"

Some would certainly see a challenge in it, but I suppose not even Japanese themselves would be able to read a few kanjis in there without furigana unless they are otakus, dedicated to bleach whatsoever. On top of that, for what is it needed? I mean, being able to read stuff like that? I find this is not Japanese but purely "Bleach Japanese" that is needed if one is interested in watching and following the Anime as a series or whatever. Then it would be naturally useful to learn these words as vocabs, but otherwise I'd say your pupils would feel kinda screwed up when you showed them this video (when they know already the basics of Japanese, comprehending there are kanji, kana etc., getting the hang of that what you show them will never appear outside of bleach).

Edit: The only word I hovered over with Rikaisama was 呪文 lol

I agree with what your saying completely. Outside of bleach, this would be pretty useless. It's just something that's fun/interesting to learn, even if it's not going to be used in real-life. I don't have understanding any of this actually (thanks to my vocabulary deck). It's really about getting a hang of the vocabulary words/context. It becomes easy after a while

Tori-kun Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:"What type of reaction would someone get if they watched this in Japanese?"

Some would certainly see a challenge in it, but I suppose not even Japanese themselves would be able to read a few kanjis in there without furigana unless they are otakus, dedicated to bleach whatsoever. On top of that, for what is it needed? I mean, being able to read stuff like that? I find this is not Japanese but purely "Bleach Japanese" that is needed if one is interested in watching and following the Anime as a series or whatever. Then it would be naturally useful to learn these words as vocabs, but otherwise I'd say your pupils would feel kinda screwed up when you showed them this video (when they know already the basics of Japanese, comprehending there are kanji, kana etc., getting the hang of that what you show them will never appear outside of bleach).

Edit: The only word I hovered over with Rikaisama was 呪文 lol

Bunch of words in there shows up outside of Bleach.....in newspapers, on websites, books....bunch of normal vocab as well.

ta12121 Wrote:

Realism Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

(Imagine giving this to a beginner class. They'd be running away from Japanese)

I don't see what the big deal is....there's a bunch of vocab in there you can learn.

True but let's say someone who has no background of Japanese or Asian languages. They would be annoyed at not understanding it. Some may even challenge it and try to understand it. It isn't hard per say to read it but it's just something I find fun/interesting to learn. Even if it's not used in real-life situations.

but what's the point of even showing it?

would you show calculus to preschoolers after you taught them how to add? it's pretty much the same thing.

kainzero Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

Realism Wrote:I don't see what the big deal is....there's a bunch of vocab in there you can learn.

True but let's say someone who has no background of Japanese or Asian languages. They would be annoyed at not understanding it. Some may even challenge it and try to understand it. It isn't hard per say to read it but it's just something I find fun/interesting to learn. Even if it's not used in real-life situations.

but what's the point of even showing it?

would you show calculus to preschoolers after you taught them how to add? it's pretty much the same thing.

True, well the point was just to show how hard Japanese may seem. If a beginner were to watch that video, it would be scary at first. Eventually all this becomes easy and not a problem anymore.