dizmox Wrote:Just get a permanent residency visa.

I don't really view being a permanent "guest" as acceptance.

Wouldn't acceptance be when you have equal rights and an actual voice in the direction of the country you love?

[Zgarbas]

Errr...Japan is actually pretty much begging people to move there these days...and from some points of view they are much more accepting than the US and UK will ever be. Mainly because they have politeness in their genes. I mean, I don't think I've ever heard of Japanese people jumping on gaijin because they don't speak Japanese, unlike a gazillion other inccidents...

BUT, politeness aside, they don't share the same outsider immersion that the US and UK eventually come to have. So in a way, though it is much easier to be let into Japan, it is much harder to become one of them.

Get what I'm saying?

And I get people trying to emigrate, I think it's just a bit...well...unhealthy to hate your surroundings in hopes of a land in which you've never lived. Like, seriously unhealthy. And no, visiting for a while doesn't count; visiting and moving are two completely different experiences. Hell, I switched CITIES and I got to live through that, I can only imagine that doing so with countries makes the culture shock that much worse.

(when I was visiting my current city everyone would be very nice to me. Once I moved in I got lots of hate directed at me for polluting their beautiful city with outsiders)

kitakitsune Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:Just get a permanent residency visa.

I don't really view being a permanent "guest" as acceptance.

Wouldn't acceptance be when you have equal rights and an actual voice in the direction of the country you love?

Not really, there'd be little difference to me between citizenship and permanent residency. It's not like I've ever voted here. There are far more important things to worry about than what your title is in some government database and I really don't think it's the same thing as being accepted or not accepted.

I wouldn't want to take citizenship if it forced me to relinquish my British citizenship anyway. The advantages don't outweigh of having the old one in reserve.

If you're following AJATT, please ask yourself the following questions:
1) Are you setting alarms and such to do the most common daily tasks (brushing your teeth, etc)?
2) Do you avoid real people? When you meet people, do you look away, avoid direct communication, or text them to communicate even if they are in the same room?
3) When you are on a date, do you text your partner instead of talking?
4) Do you avoid touching your loved ones?
5) Do you hate physical intimacy, and pass quick, harsh judgement on those who do not?
6) Do you avoid bathing?
7) Do you ignore pain and suffering of your loved ones, instead of help them?
8) Do you ignore the advice of your loved ones?
9) Do you avoid exercise?
10) Do you love your electronic devices more than you love your significant others?
11) Do you only take one earphone out when talking to your loved ones?
12) Do you try to listen to things when you sleep?
13) Do you avoid leaving your room?
14) Do you plan to use an SRS for the rest of your life?

If you answered "yes" to any of these things, you are not alone. I've heard personal accounts of all these, by AJATT users. Most of this behavior isn't good for those who are susceptible to depression.

leosmith Wrote:If you're following AJATT, please ask yourself the following questions:
1) Are you setting alarms and such to do the most common daily tasks (brushing your teeth, etc)?
2) Do you avoid real people? When you meet people, do you look away, avoid direct communication, or text them to communicate even if they are in the same room?
3) When you are on a date, do you text your partner instead of talking?
4) Do you avoid touching your loved ones?
5) Do you hate physical intimacy, and pass quick, harsh judgement on those who do not?
6) Do you avoid bathing?
7) Do you ignore pain and suffering of your loved ones, instead of help them?
8) Do you ignore the advice of your loved ones?
9) Do you avoid exercise?
10) Do you love your electronic devices more than you love your significant others?
11) Do you only take one earphone out when talking to your loved ones?
12) Do you try to listen to things when you sleep?
13) Do you avoid leaving your room?
14) Do you plan to use an SRS for the rest of your life?

I think what you're saying here is that people with an obsessive-compulsive AND a social anxiety complex (and/or depressive) may be drawn to the method in an unhealthy way. But I think I have followed ajatt in as much as it does encourage you to veer off onto your own path after a while... and I dont do any of that except number 12. (still don't see what's bad about it... as an item it kind of sits out from the others)

kitakitsune Wrote:I don't really view being a permanent "guest" as acceptance[...]
Wouldn't acceptance be when you have equal rights and an actual voice in the direction of the country you love?

Somebody's been reading too much Arudou Debito... you guys are trying to martyr yourselves on this fake cross of racism. Japan is a far cry from Selma, Alabama.

You think your government loves you in your home country?

kitakitsune Wrote:

dizmox Wrote:Just get a permanent residency visa.

I don't really view being a permanent "guest" as acceptance.

Wouldn't acceptance be when you have equal rights and an actual voice in the direction of the country you love?

Just like in many countries you have to be a citizen to vote. There is nothing special about that.

I have to admit, Im having trouble making sense of this thread. Is this directed at AJATT (as in what Khatz recommends) or the very idea of Japanese immersion? In either case, I don't agree that it can cause depression any more than 'All English All the Time' or 'All Music All the Time' can. The concept is really simple in that you're incorporating Japanese into your life, NOT treating it as something separate from it. If you have anti social characteristics, that's not a product of learning Japanese, having your OS in Japanese, spending 6 hours a day on guitar jazz chords or majoring in engineering.

Its all about balancing the method used to attain a goal. The goal is the objective NOT the method.

dtcamero Wrote:I think what you're saying here is that people with an obsessive-compulsive AND a social anxiety complex (and/or depressive) may be drawn to the method in an unhealthy way. But I think I have followed ajatt in as much as it does encourage you to veer off onto your own path after a while... and I dont do any of that except number 12. (still don't see what's bad about it... as an item it kind of sits out from the others)

Like so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation..._causation

dtcamero Wrote:and I dont do any of that except number 12. (still don't see what's bad about it... as an item it kind of sits out from the others)

12) may be the worst one of all. Without a normal night's sleep, you increase your susceptibility to many mental and physical problems.
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm

sesshomaru Wrote:It's all about balancing the method used to attain a goal. The goal is the objective NOT the method.

Well said.

leosmith Wrote:

sesshomaru Wrote:It's all about balancing the method used to attain a goal. The goal is the objective NOT the method.

Well said.

i disagree. You shouldn't view Japanese as a goal to be reached at all. If you can't appreciate the process of learning, it's going to be very difficult.

As a matter of fact, i think treating knowing Japanese itself as the goal can cause more isolation, because you would be more willing to give up other things for now because you think you'll get the benefits later (of being fluent or whatever).

If you treat the learning itself as the goal, you should naturally only do it to the extent that it's healthy and beneficial to your life, i think...

IceCream Wrote:

leosmith Wrote:

sesshomaru Wrote:It's all about balancing the method used to attain a goal. The goal is the objective NOT the method.

Well said.

i disagree. You shouldn't view Japanese as a goal to be reached at all. If you can't appreciate the process of learning, it's going to be very difficult.


As a matter of fact, i think treating knowing Japanese itself as the goal can cause more isolation, because you would be more willing to give up other things for now because you think you'll get the benefits later (of being fluent or whatever).

If you treat the learning itself as the goal, you should naturally only do it to the extent that it's healthy and beneficial to your life, i think...

Just to clarify, I don't agree with or ever argue over Japanese fluency. To me that's ridiculous and misses the point. As a goal, I my aim is to become "functional" within the Japanese language. My growth, development and interest continue just as it would in English, but now extend into the Japanese language, and cultural perspective.

I enjoy the process of learning and think doing so helps students embrace the subject matter. Thus, I don't see (or fully understand) how and why people insist on making AJATT (ie immersion) into a form of punishment.

I think we agree more than you may think.

IceCream Wrote:i disagree. You shouldn't view Japanese as a goal to be reached at all. If you can't appreciate the process of learning, it's going to be very difficult.

Yes, we definitely disagree on this. I don't really enjoy learning. But I really enjoy using the language. This can be a fine line, of course. I think the current fad of trying to make people believe they will fail if they don't enjoy learning is ridiculous. It would be nice if people would stop spreading this obvious lie, but I don't expect it to end any time soon. There are so many people out there who are afraid or not willing to work hard for something. A language product or method that advertises itself as "fun" or "easy" is more likely to sell.

Language just has to be Fun™ and you'll Get Used To It™ !!
　

icecream Wrote:you should naturally only do it to the extent that it's healthy and beneficial to your life, i think...

I think this really hits the nail on the head. Is attempting to spend 100% of your time learning Japanese beneficial to your life now or in the foreseeable future? If the answer is honestly yes then by all means go nuts. If it's just a hobby though, probably best not to go overboard.

re: fun

I tend to feel that if something remains difficult for an extended period of time, you're probably doing it wrong, either studying something pointless, too difficult or using slow ineffective methods. Studying a language is pretty easy in my opinion. Whether it's fun or not will differ for different people of course and patience is obvously required. But if the process is prohibitively difficult/boring and or seemingly futile that simply continuing it becomes difficult then it's probably an indication of poor methods or disinterest. Either way probably a good time to reassess.

nadiatims Wrote:I tend to feel that if something remains difficult for an extended period of time

I just want to point out that when people talk about the difficulty of a language, they are usually talking about how long it takes to learn. Otherwise "difficulty" is pretty hard to quantify. So for me, "a language that remains difficult for an extended period of time" is a redundant statement. All languages are difficult, some more than others, depending on the learner.

leosmith Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:i disagree. You shouldn't view Japanese as a goal to be reached at all. If you can't appreciate the process of learning, it's going to be very difficult.

Yes, we definitely disagree on this. I don't really enjoy learning. But I really enjoy using the language. This can be a fine line, of course. I think the current fad of trying to make people believe they will fail if they don't enjoy learning is ridiculous. It would be nice if people would stop spreading this obvious lie, but I don't expect it to end any time soon. There are so many people out there who are afraid or not willing to work hard for something. A language product or method that advertises itself as "fun" or "easy" is more likely to sell.

ah, i think you're mistaking me for someone else

i wasn't saying that language learning has to be easy or fun.

i was refferring to the wider philosphical point that chasing goals without enjoying the process of getting there, and thinking the benefits lie somewhere in the future instead, is a bad way to go about things.

I think that going about things with that mindset often leads to giving up other stuff too much too. "Oh, well, i'll just not see my friends for a few more months, because my Japanese'll be so much better by then, and i'm going to Japan, and i want to be fluent / have reached X level by then". Whereas, for example, if you really think about enjoyable either a date or listening to japanese with one earplug in is, the answer is quite clear

btw, i don't think difficult equates to unenjoyable, at all.

@sesshomaru: maybe we do agree more than i thought

IceCream Wrote:i wasn't saying that language learning has to be easy or fun.

I'm sorry, but I read your whole post, and I think this is exactly what you're saying.

IceCream Wrote:i was refferring to the wider philosphical point that chasing goals without enjoying the process of getting there, and thinking the benefits lie somewhere in the future instead, is a bad way to go about things.

It's not necessary to enjoy the process. Period. It's nice that you do though. Kudos to you. But please don't tell people that there's something wrong with them if they don't.

IceCream Wrote:I think that going about things with that mindset often leads to giving up other stuff too much too. "Oh, well, i'll just not see my friends for a few more months, because my Japanese'll be so much better by then, and i'm going to Japan, and i want to be fluent / have reached X level by then".

That's a little extreme, but I wouldn't fault someone for that without hearing the complete situation.

IceCream Wrote:Whereas, for example, if you really think about enjoyable either a date or listening to japanese with one earplug in is, the answer is quite clear

huh?

oh, i see, you're arguing for the sake of it.

no, it's not what i was / am saying. They're different concepts.

If you think about it for a while, you might understand.

good luck.

Thora Wrote:Language just has to be Fun™ and you'll Get Used To It™ !!
　

Well.....it certainly doesn't hurt for it it be and yes you do.

Reading about AJATT fosters depression?

IceCream Wrote:no, it's not what i was / am saying

Hopefully you'll stop telling people there's something wrong with their plan if they don't "enjoy the journey", but I doubt that will happen.

sesshomaru Wrote:

Thora Wrote:Language just has to be Fun™ and you'll Get Used To It™ !!
　

Well.....it certainly doesn't hurt for it it be and yes you do.

Sweet! Thora's TM's are already paying off. Can I buy stock?

caivano Wrote:Reading about AJATT fosters depression?

touche

lol, you're funny.

Have you ever actually tried learning a language for a significant period of time?

By all means, go ahead and waste your time spending years doing something you're not enjoying with the vague hope that at some point you'll have reached some magical level that you can enjoy the benefits of having achieved. Even if that level somehow exists, it probably doesn't justify the amount of work you hated doing to get there.

Or, don't waste your time and go and do something else that you can enjoy spending time on. If you don't enjoy learning languages, perhaps you're better off learning something you do enjoy. Up to you.

IceCream Wrote:Have you ever actually tried learning a language for a significant period of time?

Spanish C1, Swahili B2, Thai B2, Japanese B1, Mandarin B1, French B1, Russian A2, more or less.

IceCream Wrote:By all means, go ahead and waste your time spending years doing something you're not enjoying with the vague hope that at some point you'll have reached some magical level that you can enjoy the benefits of having achieved. Even if that level somehow exists, it probably doesn't justify the amount of work you hated doing to get there.

You realize you just admitted what you denied in the previous 2 posts, right?

It's not a waste of time to work towards a goal, just because the work is hard or unenjoyable at times. Have you ever heard of someone not enjoying their job? Would you tell them that they need to quit and find a job they love? What if they don't care, because they enjoy the things that the money allows them to do in their time off?

The reward is the fun I have using my languages. Travel is fantastic, and so are the girls.

It's perfectly valid to be motivated by a goal. You don't have to enjoy your studies to succeed, so please stop trying to convince people that this is true.

^^??? if you actually read my posts, you would realise that that's exactly what i've been saying. I'm not sure if you're trolling or...

Again, you seem to be equating hard work with unenjoyable. Actually, i think something being hard work or in some sense difficult is often what makes it enjoyable.

You don't actually need to learn languages to travel, or to meet girls while travelling. You could do so easily with the bare minimum, or nothing at all. So i don't think that really justifies the time. (though you seem to be a beginner in most of your languages, so, you probably already know that). I think we may have a different idea about what learning a language actually is. I'm not talking about learning a few phrases here and there. If that's all you're doing, and you don't enjoy it, well, no big deal. It's not like you're investing much in any of your languages in the 1st place.

And yes, i would advise someone to look for a new job if they really didn't enjoy what they were doing. It's difficult to find a job that you LOVELOVELOVE, but not so difficult to find one that's enjoyable day-to-day. And since most people spend at least 1/3rd of their life at work, i completely don't see the point of wasting so much of your life doing something you hate. Other jobs also, yknow, pay money that you can enjoy on your time off. So why not have both?

IceCream Wrote:^^??? if you actually read my posts, you would realise that that's exactly what i've been saying. I'm not sure if you're trolling or

You say it's necessary to enjoy your studies, and I say it's not. It's pretty clear that we disagree on this.

IceCream Wrote:Again, you seem to be equating hard work with unenjoyable. Actually, i think something being hard work or in some sense difficult is often what makes it enjoyable.

I don't equate hard work with being unenjoyable. I have been talking about both. I'm glad that you don't deny that languages take hard work, but disappointed that you insist on telling everybody that they need to enjoy their studies to succeed.

IceCream Wrote:You don't actually need to learn languages to travel, or to meet girls while travelling.

It depends on how you intend to travel and what kind of girls you want to meet. I like to get deeply into the culture and understand as much of what's going on around me as possible. Knowing languages is critical. Using them and traveling is my favorite hobby.

IceCream Wrote:you seem to be a beginner in most of your languages

Ouch. I'm quite "fluent" in all my languages, except for perhaps Russian. Writing (and in the case of Japanese reading) keeps me a little low on the scale. Since you criticized me, do you mind listing your languages?

IceCream Wrote:And yes, i would advise someone to look for a new job if they really didn't enjoy what they were doing.

Most people don't have that luxury, or are satisfied not "loving" their job, but loving their life.