hey

i think by "shows natural phenomena" you mean "is used with intransitive verbs". if that's correct, i think it's more helpful here to contrast this with を (and explain what transitive / intransitive is) than it is to contrast it with は. You can use an explanation similar to Nadiatims / explaining emphasis to explain the specific differences between は・が seperately in a much more clear way i think... since as such, the "natural phenomena" thing has no bearing on whether you should use は or が, only whether you should use が or を.

Yes, I wasnt contrasting ga and wa with that statement. I was just showing what can be used for. I do have a note of intransitivity in the lesson too. I will be working when I get home on a more thought analysis and more examples.

ah, i see. Well then, i'd suggest including an explanation of the intransitive / transitive distinction in that section, and seperating the "existence of a non specific thing" where you contrast with は to a seperate section on the page then.

Also, i think you need to explain more clearly what "existence of a non specific thing" means... i'm assuming you mean words like 誰 and 何, but if i didn't already know about that, i wouldn't understand what you meant there at all.

i like the inclusion of pictures

Ya, I noticed spacing was problematic. It sucks I cant do anything about it now. Non-specific things make sense when you think about interrogatives, which is a point specifically mentioned in 10, but it is also makes sense in the sense that wa is normally viewed as "as for". So, like "as for rain, it is falling", there could be other things that could be falling, but the speaker used that as the theme for conversation.

I will also try making a contrast with my comment about pointing out. Both in their own way do this.

例えば

私が学生です。
私は学生です。

The first is like, i am the student.
The second is like, as for me i am a student, but i am not sure about anyone else.

How about looking what's up now. I did a lot of changes, and I personally think it looks much more prettier and is much more accurate.

well, you still haven't seperated out the different subjects you're talking about, the examples sentences are all mixed together, and the explanations still don't seem very clear to me.

Remember to put yourself in your reader's shoes. If you came to your page knowing nothing about が would you understand it from what you've written? Because i think i couldn't learn much from your page on it...

1. what a subject / object of a sentence is isn't defined.
2. your definition of intransitive isn't helpful, partially because of that, but also partially because you haven't explained what transitive is either.
3. You didn't mention を and still have the "phenomena as it occurs" in the same place as "が marks the subject of the sentence".
4. You don't explain why "this means that it can also be used with verbs that show potential" or what "a verb that shows potential" is, so i don't really understand why it's there at all.
5. You don't explain what "showing specificity" is, and it's not clear from the example. What is being specified? Why is it important?
6. Your next paragraph needs proofreading, and is generally confusing.
7. You haven't made it clear how your 警官がいる relates to your explanation, and i thought 居る was an intransitive verb to start with so i'm not sure why you've put it there.
8. が is used with adjectives in general, not just those that show feeling. You have a bunch in your examples below. The fact that 好き and 欲しい are adjectives and not verbs really doesn't have much to do with が, and so should be in your adverb section.

What i'd suggest is reading through and comparing similar sections in your textbooks and thinking about the way the concepts are explained to readers. See how they seperate out various concepts, and the type of language they use to explain them. Some textbooks are better written than others, of course, but try to read it as a beginner would, and you'll be able to see what works and why.

I've actually done what you suggest in terms of cross referencing sources. However, there are a few things that I don't understand of what you're asking either.

For one, I want to avoid things that should be left to another discussion as much as possible. The reader knows that the particle ga is used with intransitive verbs, and they are given the simplest understanding of it with examples of kind of verbs that are intransitive in Japanese grammar, and there's no need to tell what transitive and wo are.

A verb that shows potential and a potential verb are interchangeable aren't they not? If they aren't, I would like to know and I will be glad to change the wording. A verb like mieru is a completely ok verb to use to describe this, and it was used in a similar way in that article that Eratik sent.

Keikan ga iru is also a perfect example. There is a police officer. Here ga is used with an intransitive verb, check. Here, ga shows that a non-specific thing or person, which is this case is "an" officer, is there, a concrete specific statement of existence.

Adverbs section? Ga isn't an adverbial particle at all. It is important to know that to like and to want are adjectives in Japanese, because once they do learn about wo, they will without thought put it there. Although there are certain instances where something like "anata wo suku" is acceptable, but even mentioning that would be for another conversation in another lesson.

Ga is particularly used with adjectives of feeling. I would stress the word particularly. Not to come off as frank, but it's kind of a duh that both are used with adjectives. They're functions is what separates them. The comparison and contrast in the following lesson further solidify that point.

I will see what I can do to make things as black and white as possible, but there are also restraints that I want to keep in place. We don't need a beginner's lesson ending up 20 pages long simply because someone can see the need to mention this and that, even if it does build the exact big picture of Japanese grammar.

Minor thing, which I guess could actually be open to debate, is that generally on blogs and things online, you don't indent the first word in paragraphs. You have an extra line break in there to signify the change. Right now you have both. Or don't, it's really not important.

I just took a look at the "ga" lesson. It reads a lot better than it did the first time I saw it. I still don't know if I would really grok "ga" by reading the lesson as a beginner, but it's definitely been improved.

Quote:We don't need a beginner's lesson ending up 20 pages long simply because someone can see the need to mention this and that, even if it does build the exact big picture of Japanese grammar.

Definitely try and keep things out of the lesson that aren't beginner-related. The thing with なのだ and XがX structures are the first ones that come to mind. なのだ because I feel it's a different grammar point, and XがX because... idk, I don't feel it's a grammar point -per se- and it's something that you can pick up by running into it.

Either way, definitely an improvement. For what it's worth, I really like nadiatims' post about wa/ga.

I wasn't looking for an argument, i was just pointing out where your page needs clarity and extra explanation.

i won't go through your last post, since you've changed the page since i last looked at it / you wrote the last post. It is better & more clear now!! But really, it would be quicker to just write the damn thing myself than argue with you about it lol

He definitely did note some important things, but I would disagree that mentioning XgaX is unnecessary, because you do indeed find in Japanese dictionaries, and there is a difference between it and saying XwaX which is seen in the next lesson, and it was also mentioned in that article that Eratik kindly shared to us all.

I indent things simply for style, and I also do it so that you can actually find where the next paragraph starts. I got lost in my own work without them, and I'm sure some others are like that too. And, do you know how many wasted hours would be wasted, purposely being superfluous , if I had to go back and get rid of all the indents? It would be a nightmare from hell.

I also just put more edits too. I'm trying to really implement icecream's advice, as I find it extremely helpful and insightful. I know that the example with na no da is probably asking too much, so I have scrapped it.

Well, I personally don't think anyone would completely grasp ga in one setting either. If that was the case, there would be no need to make a dissertation about it and it would be easy. I think it sinks more in as you said over time and with the comparison and contrast with wa that follows.

imabi Wrote:Very true. I'm sure you'll get there yourself too. Maybe you can find a lot of good from what I've made.

I've decided to take you up on this offer

I started at the beginning, because despite not really being a beginner (I've done core 6000, Tae Kim's guide etc), my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills, and after going through a few lessons I must say I really like the site.

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

This.

Like I said I've been through Tae Kim's guide, I understand the basics of Japanese grammar. The reason I started at the beginning of Imabi's site is the level of detail in each lesson, while I've studied the easier stuff before there still seems to be some things I haven't encountered, like the vocabulary for the various grammatical terms.

I had a quick look through the DOJG books last time I was in Japan but I didn't get them because I could see myself buying them and never using them. I hate reading about grammar rules, so for the past year I've just been focusing on studying vocabulary and hoping to pick up the grammar AJATT style via native materials. But that doesn't seem to have worked :/

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

Does this have anything to do with grammar?

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

Does this have anything to do with grammar?

Yes, it does. One thing is to theoretically/passively understand the grammar. Another one is to be able to apply it correctly when producing. From what they said I guess they don't mean "tripping up" as in forgetting vocabulary, having trouble with pronunciation/kanji or not knowing what to say. I guess they mean how to use certain grammatical constructions or how to conjugate certain forms on the fly. If so, I have exactly the same problem.

i think its more to do with choosing the correct grammar than understanding it.

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

"grammar" isn't the same thing as production. There's passive and active grammar skill just like everything else.

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:i think its more to do with choosing the correct grammar than understanding it.

Agreed. But as I mentioned, it's much easier to simplify identify/understand the grammar than to use it. And I'm not talking only about choosing the correct grammar, I'm talking about being able to use it properly as well (using the correct grammar in a correct way, basically).

yudantaiteki Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

"grammar" isn't the same thing as production. There's passive and active grammar skill just like everything else.

This.

kitakitsune Wrote:

HonyakuJoshua Wrote:

bakuchiku Wrote:my reading ability is far ahead of my grammar skills,

surely this cant be possible unless you read the kanji but cant understand the sentence?

My brain has no problems processing written Japanese but once I try to switch over to writing my own Japanese or speaking correctly, I start tripping up big time.

They are both different skills that have to be strengthen, I learned that just yesterday haha.

That is definitely true. For some reason, though, my Korean listening skills are much better than my reading skills--I don't know how that's happened. lol

Anyways, I've been trying my best to make adjustments. I've spent hours getting thousands of more examples on the site, more culture notes, and even a food chapter. I definitely promise that my work will improve as I get closer to finishing up high school and beginning my Japanese major.

Allow me to talk about points mentioned in this thread and provide other items of discussion.

1. The first point I would like to address is that I saw traffic coming to my site from this forum around October 2011. So, I am not a spammer, troll, or fake person that just decided to join here. If that were the case, all I would post is 全面広告.

2. The name of my site is something that was thought up by me and my original members. It symbolizes the beginner's heart of using the readings he or she knows without considering the exceptions. Who here didn't think 今日 was いまび at one point?

3. My coverage of Keigo at the time was by no means perfect. The lessons of the site in general are for teaching grammar, putting practicality on the side at times. For example, aside from phrases like arigatou gozaimasu, the old-fashioned honorific pattern for adjectives "-u gozaimasu" is not common. My point is that I feel an obligation to mention it. I have gone the extra mile to read up on Keigo and ask Japanese people. I did indeed find wrong examples. It is still a work in progress, as should a good resource be, and I have continued to add new examples from real Keigo situations. Even back then, all sentences were based off of real Keigo texts.

4. I see a lot of comments about my English. I have passed almost all of my lessons into Microsoft Word to find the punctuation, spelling, and syntactical errors. In comparison to what the site was at the start of this thread, it is much more appealing and clean. So, if you go back now, I promise that you will find a much improved work, hopefully one that you can support and contribute to.

5. Over the last months, review has increased. What I would have rather liked was the many pages on this thread concerning typos and errors either emailed to me or discussed on my site.

6. My plans for the site include covering Classical Japanese to the best of my abilities. It will be my personal notes for it as I am still studying it myself. There are plenty of you on here more qualified to make such a resource, but I believe it is the most efficient way for me to study, and the results will end up helping more than just myself.

7. Let me thank the members that have been very helpful to me. I am very grateful to Exrulez who has really given some amazing advice as well as friendship. I would also like to thank IceCream who dealt with me when I was being a dick and who pinpointed the errors that I couldn't see.

8. I would love this thread to be reopened or a new one to be started and this one being deleted. I would love to discuss new ideas, appearance changes, etc. I would, again, rather have things like typos and errors emailed to me. I do really need support, and the only way to have many of the actually very good suggestions mentioned here is for people that are good at Japanese or who are native to help me out.

Thank you, and I hope to talk to you guys soon.　Everyone that visits again, please email me what you think.

have you considered making an anki deck for your site?

Yes, but I haven't had anytime to toy around with it.

imabi Wrote:Who here didn't think 今日 was いまび at one point?

*raises hand*