Hey folks,

lately I had been active on lang8 and I recognised that one huge source of my mistakes comes from using grammar wrong a) in function (i.e. は instead of が, vice-versa, screwing up with particles) and b) in syntax. With b) I mean things like:
先生かもしれない。 He/she might be a teacher. ← I'd make a 先生だかもしれない out of it.

This means, I have difficulties remembering when to use だ f.e. and when it is omitted. Sometimes I also forget while writing basic structures like XはYがZだ。 In order to practice that more, I want to use Anki, but I am not sure what deck structure would be most efficient. Also I tend to overuse some forms like から／ので／けど, which makes my sentences sound all the same and just ways too simple. The point why I'm writing this now, is that I know all these forms when I encounter them while reading, but when it comes to producing them on my own there are still mistakes (too many!). I realised that I jumped too fast to 完全マスターJLPT2 just to "get" all the expressions. I understand them when I see them in texts, but choosing which forms to use in a sentence on my own troubles me. Example follows:

ものか
Vる、い・形容詞／な・形容詞+な、名詞+な take ものか／もんか／ものですか／もんですか
How do you learn these patterns by heart? I mean, this one wasn't really special, but there are some expressions that where just past forms of verbs can get used..

I hope you can give me some advice.
Thanks in advance!

If I were you I would not focus so much on production but more on input. Just read/listen more eventually the right patterns will just stick. I honestly don't believe in using formal study materials after a certain level of understanding. Learning how to speak via formulaic grammar constructions is a waste of time and just plain frustrating. You shouldn't have to reason about how you're going to say something, you should just go with your gut and express it in a way that 'feels' right. The only way to develop that 'feel' is too expose yourself to Japanese constantly. That's how I learned both German and English, I barely know any grammar for both of those languages, I just know what to say from having been exposed to them for a long period of time. Also I'm aware everything I've said will be called into doubt, because most people on here seem to think that your brain has erected some strict barrier between passive/active language skills. My experience has taught me the opposite. I've been reading Japanese for atleast 2+ hours daily lately and it has also increased my ability to express myself over that time period. Learning a new language should never be a strictly academic excercise, if anything most of the learning takes place outside of textbooks and grammar explanations.

I understand what you mean. That's exactly how I've learnt English. But I wonder always how people learn Japanese to fluency, with all these tricky grammar rules and exceptions, these different usages of all these forms with different nuances. I guess by making a deck I intended to systematize my learning. Now I realised namely that I forgot all the grammar points I'd learnt once in Genki 1 and 2 for example. I did all the exercises in Genki, but somehow I cannot remember all the rules and usages properly which is really frustrating T_T がっかり～

Edit: This remembers me of the people saying they read DoBJG from cover to cover. I'd read it like a novel, but I would never know every detail from every page, and that is just crucial when mastering a language.. I wonder how you learn grammar without an SRS, because learning vocabulary without Anki is unthinkable for me at least. Kinda got addicted using Anki...

Tori-kun Wrote:I'd read it like a novel, but I would never know every detail from every page, and that is just crucial when mastering a language..

Why wouldn't you? Once you've identified a pattern, it's pretty straight forward (DOBJG is "only" 200 items). At least wait until you arrive to DOIJG (or even DOAJG) before starting to assume you can't learn everything.

EratiK Wrote:

Tori-kun Wrote:I'd read it like a novel, but I would never know every detail from every page, and that is just crucial when mastering a language..

Why wouldn't you? Once you've identified a pattern, it's pretty straight forward (DOBJG is "only" 200 items). At least wait until you arrive to DOIJG (or even DOAJG) before starting to assume you can't learn everything.

Once I finished reading it, I forgot all the patterns/rules etc. from the first page onwards, Eratik. I guess that'd be a lot of wasted time then. I have the feeling of needing to repeat grammar constantly like vocabularies in Anki
Or shall I just.. try reading it once?

i would make MCD cards and cloze out the grammar points you want to focus on. the longer the cited text, the more context you have to really get a feel for the clozed grammar point's individuality.

dtcamero Wrote:i would make MCD cards and cloze out the grammar points you want to focus on. the longer the cited text, the more context you have to really get a feel for the clozed grammar point's individuality.

I'm experimenting with those types of cards now. I'm also putting in monolingual look-ups(want to change how I srs, so I'm playing around with different cards).

of course you would forget the grammar points.. you didn't SRS them just download the big shared deck of dictionaries of grammar and unfreeze each sentence in Anki as you go along... check the deck's sentences for errors as you move along too because there are some... worked wonders for me.

Hashiriya Wrote:of course you would forget the grammar points.. you didn't SRS them just download the big shared deck of dictionaries of grammar and unfreeze each sentence in Anki as you go along... check the deck's sentences for errors as you move along too because there are some... worked wonders for me.

Yeah Do you still have your modified deck or didn't you modify it at all? Did you go through all of the almost 9000 cards?! That's soooo much!!!! I'm curious how to turn that deck into a production deck.
Perhaps highlighting the syntax (see the given examples above) and putting the basic meaning how to translate phrasings in bold/color might help?

[Edit]

OK. I decided trying out what an effect learning grammatical syntax by heart would have on me and I must say, I'm surprised. I just read a few posts in which magamo at least writes that he finds it unnecessary studying grammar, unless one wants to become a teacher (he does not say it's unnecessary at all). I find words and vocabularies are quickly learnt with Anki, but I find Japanese grammar really difficult. There are so many forms that are alike and have only a difference in nuance. Though, using these forms wrongly will make the native speaker shrug and think 不自然・・・

I took Sou matome Nihongo Bunpou N2 and learnt the "remember boxes" by heart. I know what the basic meaning of these expressions are, but I never knew if it is f.e. Ｎであるものの or perhaps　Ｎのものの. I guessed I missed an important step here. When I learnt English grammar I also had to learn that after verbs like 'enjoy, like etc.' an -ing-form must follow. (Or an infinitive construction?) But anyway. I just wanted to keep you all informed. It was really worth trying and I guess I will keep at it. I guess that's the way for me to get more "feeling" what sounds 自然／不自然 and why. I have to learn grammar like this:

usage|function|syntax

I've found that, you really don't know if something is effective or not, until you've done it for a while(few months). When learning by yourself, learning in a systematic manner helps when people don't know what exactly to do. Personally, what one finds ineffective, may be super effective for another person. Try,experiment,read,play around and you will succeed in learning grammar. Grammar is really about learning basic context,vocab and syntax.

[Zgarbas]

Practice makes perfect.

(this is true for all languages).

I think that when it comes to actually using a language there are a few phases through which everyone has to pass.

The kind of OK but not all there yet phase. Where you are now. The words won't come out right, the grammar won't naturally come to you, etc. This is completely normal when you're not used to talking in that language yet, but if what you say can be understood then you have a good start.

The simplistic phase. Everything does come to you when you need it, but you're keeping to the grammar rules. It sounds stiff, slightly unnatural, and the sentences are longer than they should be, but it's correct and understandable. By this point it's all good. It's not native level but you can consider yourself a speaker=).

Continuously improving. Once you've been using it for a while and have more exposure to the language, you slowly get used to it. Unfortunately there is no shortcut, you need exposure, immersion and practice.

Fluency. By this point you have enough exposure to ignore the grammar rules in favor of fluency. This doesn't mean that you'll be speaking grammatically incorrect, but you'll know when and how to use everything and when you can ignore certain basic rules.

So yeah. Practice, practice, practice. Don't be afraid to make mistakes; it's how you learn . It's better to write 5 phrases and have a few mistakes than to write a simple sentence for fear of making mistakes. You have to force yourself a bit. The lang8 community is very understanding =). Try finding a skype buddy and again, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Immersion is good. Watch some movies and listen to some music. Since you already have your foundation set, it'll come naturally in time.


And, just my 2 cents and it's how it goes for ME, but I don't think grammar needs to be SRSd. Especially when you want to learn how to USE the said grammar rather than understand it. Just force yourself into saying whatever you want to say and then learn from your mistakes. Again, the lang8 community is wonderful and very patient, and they don't mind giving you thorough explanations if you ask for them.

(though if you really want to SRS...)I'd suggest making a list of your every mistake/weak point and putting it aside. Take out a piece of paper and write down a sentence for each one. Check to see if the sentences are correct. If they're not, find out why they are incorrect. Rinse and repeat. School-style SRSing 8)

P.S. Also, confidence is vital. Just trust yourself to say the right thing and don't let the mistakes bring you down=).