Back

場合/なら (条件)

#1
A question that troubles me all the time.. Let me explain quickly.

なら gets used like this (I think):

あなたが行くなら、俺も行こう! In case/If it's that you are going (too), then I will go, too.
日本なら、一回も行った/旅行したことがない。 If it's Japan (you're talking about), I have not even visited it (even) once.

場合 is difficult to understand for me, because it states also a condition in a way: "In case.." = "If it's *that*" and therefore it has the same function as なら to me...
It's so ambiguous, I don't understand the function and correct usage of 場合.

Thanks for any help in advance!

[Edit] Using the right conditional is so difficult.. I can't find an easy rule for which to use when.. Magamo!!! 助けてください! :)
[Edit2] Grammatical mistake corrected :3
Edited: 2011-10-01, 7:29 am
Reply
#2
I can't help with your actual question, but since you said you wanted people to point out problems with your Japanese I figured I'd say that 日本なら、一回も旅行することがない。 seems wrong to me. It was probably just a typo, but it should be "shita" (sorry I can't type Japanese right now) not する. I think right now it means I'm not going to visit Japan.

The use of 旅行する also seems pretty odd to me (I'd have just said "iku") and I'd prefer ichidemo to 一回 but maybe thats just because I've heard "ichidemo itta koto (ga) nai" loads of times. I'm probably wrong. Cool
Edited: 2011-10-01, 7:15 am
Reply
#3
Thanks for your correction, Splatted! I editted it..
Reply
May 16 - 30 : Pretty Big Deal: Save 31% on all Premium Subscriptions! - Sign up here
JapanesePod101
#4
Ok Im no pro at japanese so I may be wrong (and on top of it english isnt even my native language, so...).
Anyway,
For what I get, 場合 is used more as a condition for things that may (and that the speaker usually hope it not) happen in the near future and what you should do in case that happens. Usually for things that are out of your "schedule" control (not sure if that word fits in this case).

Things that qualify for 場合 are:
In case a earthquake occurs, what should I you do?
地震の場合は、どうしたら いいですか

In case it rains, there wont be baseball training.
雨の場合は、野球の練習はありません

It also fits for things like getting late at some place, making a mistake, things that happen without you intending it to be that way.

And for what I get, なら is just a normal IF its true (and supposedly yes, cause it already happened, is happening or I heard it will happen) then...
like from DBJG:
松田が来るのなら僕は行きません。 (if its true that Matsuda is to come, then I wont go).


Im not good at explaining things, I just hope to not be wrong (but in forums its easier to find someone to correct you than actually try to explain it from zero, so this might help for more incoming comments Tongue)
Edited: 2011-10-01, 8:23 am
Reply
#5
@jonuhey: Thanks for that explanation. What else are "out of the schedule happenings" besides rain, earthquakes, other natural disasters? Haha..

F.e. 時間割が(突然の)変更する場合、ぜひ連絡してください! Please contact me in case something out of schedule happens/if the schedule changes. <- ?
Reply
#6
Even traffic jam, if you get ill, if you get out of money, depends on context.
If you talking about a machine that you bought you can also use it to say "if it breaks/stop working". Or if you using a machine "in case it stops working then do X and X".
Even if you make a wrong phone call you can use 場合 (according to minna no nihongo Tongue)
まちがい電話をかけた場合は、ちゃんと謝ったほうがいいです

Usually for what I get sounds more like instructions and information on what to do in case bad things happen.
Reply
#7
Ah, ok, thanks for that explanation! So you can use 場合 whenever ("If") something's 'out of order/schedule/not as usual', right?
But: 文章を分からなければ、先生に聞いてください。 VS 文章を分からない場合、先生に聞いてください。
What's the difference?! *confused*

[Edit] From a native (lang8):
Quote:"How about, if a sentence has a verb then you can use "場合" and "なら", but if the sentence has no verb then you can use only "なら". For example,

If it is rain, the event will be cancelled. (雨なら/雨の場合には、イベントは中止になるだろう)
In case of rain, the event will be cancelled. (雨なら、イベントは中止になるだろう)"
Edited: 2011-10-01, 10:57 am
Reply
#8
The next is not an strict grammatical rule but rather my opinion about what I noticed about the use of 場合 and なら
1) 場合 occurs in conversation and text and conveys a general meaning as "In case" or "in the event of" but considering that the event is going to occur eventually.

a. 地震の場合、エレベーターは乗らないで浮ください。
In case of earthquake, do not use the elevator

2) なら is more for conversation (though it may occur in text too) and it may be translated as if in general but conveys a sense of supposition, like something that is not expected to be real or that is still undecided.

b. 行くなら、声をかけてくれ、私も行きたいから。
If you go (after all), call me, 'cause I want to go to

c. あなたなら、できる
YOU can go it. (in the sense, no matter what difficult, if it is you, it is possible)

d. そんなことは、日本なら珍しくないけど、ここではほとんどない。
Such a thing is not uncommon in Japan (it wouldnt be unusual in Japan) but here almost never happens.

As you can see, 場合 tends to be used for generic cases while なら refers to specific one-time situations (in (a), no matter how many earthquakes, you shouldnt use it, but in (b) and ©, we are talking about particular cases).

Hope it helps
Reply
#9
Japanese has various expressions which roughly correspond to "if" just like English also has "when," "unless," "as long as," "in case," etc. If you want to learn them systematically through grammar and translation, it might be better to compare them side-by-side than learn each one-by-one individually.

Here is a good summary of the four major Japanese "if"s, namely 〜と, 〜たら, 〜ば, and 〜なら. It's based on how various textbooks for beginners explain these, so it should be concise but good enough for intermediate learners. If you want more than that, this is a much more comprehensive and thorough explanation about the same topic including 場合. I've never seen a more detailed treatment on this.

Since this topic is too complicated to fully explain in one single forum post, I'll focus on the more important differences between なら and 場合 which generally work for many cases and ignore less frequent usages and exceptions.

But first, let's fix one easy problem you seem to be having. You seem to be confusing the "as for"-ish なら (such as ならs in 日本なら、一回も行ったことがない。and 新聞ならここにあるよ。) with the more "if" kind of なら. You might have learned that particle "は" is "as for," "speaking of," and the like. But this kind of なら also works like these English "topic marking" phrases. In fact, you can replace this type of なら with は without changing the general meaning of a sentence, though it loses the explicit topic bringing sense. You may think this use of なら is closer to "as for" and "speaking of" than particle は, although neither is completely the same as the English equivalents.

This topic marking kind of なら usually follows a noun or noun phrase. A quick and dirty way to check if it's of this kind is to swap it with は and see if the meaning significantly changes and/or the sentence becomes ungrammatical. For example, replacing なら in あなたが行くなら私も行こう results in an ungrammatical sentence while あなたならできる and あなたはできる mean roughly the same. Here is an example where なら is directly following a noun so the swapping doesn't make it ungrammatical but changes the meaning entirely: 風邪なら学校やすめばいいじゃない。(You don't need to go to school when you're sick, you know.).

Your teacher may have treated the two kinds of ならs as the same usage because you can still translate a sentence with "as for"-ish なら into English by using "if", but the meanings and usages are very different. So I recommend you distinguish between the two.

Anyway, we only treat the "if" kind of なら here and see how it's different from the "if"-ish 場合 usage. Note that なら and 場合 have multiple meanings and usages which can be "if" and such in English, so the following explanation is far from comprehensive. Also, I leave explanations about grammatical differences (such as what kind of word can be followed in the grammatical sense) to the links I provided in this post or your teacher/textbook.

One of the biggest differences in nuance is that when you use なら, most of the time you're picturing in your mind a situation where the condition/hypothesis holds or putting yourself in others' shoes in a sense. And often you're stating your subjective opinion. So, it's often used when you respond to what someone just said or talk about the situation you (or someone else) are in right now. For example:

A: 萌えアニメとかどれ見てもマジきもい。(I hate moe anime. They always creep me out.)
B: なら見んなよ。(Don't watch them then. )

A more textbook style Japanese would be 萌えアニメを気持ち悪いと思うなら、見なければよいと思います. And what B is saying is, "If I were you, I wouldn't watch anime that I knew would creep me out, you motherfucker."

The "if"-ish 場合 is generally more objective and analytic. It works very well when you state a logical conclusion in a dry tone of voice. Instruction manuals tend to prefer this kind of 場合. Also, it implies that the speaker knows there are multiple possible cases or situations but one particular case/situation is chosen. Hence, you can't use this kind of 場合 when something is always the case or always happens within a reasonable time frame. Hence, 春が来た場合、桜が咲きます sounds odd in normal context. A possible situation this sentence works in is when you just omitted 予想より早く in the conditional clause because it's obvious from the context. Another possible context would be humans bucked Earth up too much so scientists are saying spring as we know may no longer come.

Here are some comparisons between なら and 場合. 雨が降った場合は中止になります is a dry and straightforward statement that tells you the fact that if it rains, it'll be canceled. But 雨が降ったなら中止になります sounds like the speaker just heard that it rained and is saying, "If that's the case, it'll be canceled."

まちがい電話をかけたなら、ちゃんと謝ったほうがいいです sounds like the speaker just heard or noticed that you got the wrong number. And he pictured this situation in his mind and thought you should say sorry. So he is suggesting you say sorry as his "if I were you" kind of opinion. Also, this is not a general statement. It may be a general truth that it's better to say sorry when you get the wrong number. But what the sentence is referring to is one specific instance.

まちがい電話をかけた場合は、ちゃんと謝ったほうがいいです is a dry statement about what you're supposed to do in such a situation. What this sentence is saying is that there are two possible situations, i.e., you get the right number or the wrong one, and that when the latter is the case, it's better to say sorry. No specific instance is in the speaker's mind.

Since the difference is mainly what's happening in the speaker's mind, either wording may work in many situations. But the nuances they carry are always different.
Edited: 2011-10-03, 6:23 am
Reply
#10
magamo Wrote:Since the difference is mainly what's happening in the speaker's mind, either wording may work in many situations. But the nuances they carry are always different.
Thanks for your wonderful explanations, magamo! Especially the last examples were really helpful to me at least! The explanation you gave here reminds me of the one you gave to explain the difference in そう(Non-hearsay) and よう: the latter involved something emotional and the speaker empathises with, whereas the latter is a really "dry" preposition what seems to be based on facts (f.e. visible).
What I want to say is that I got the impression 場合 and なら are interchangeable in some way, depending on what you want to stress/say with the (huge) difference in nuance.
Having said this, except for a few general, but somehow difficult to remember, rules for conditionals (と: cannot express volitionals etc.), it seems they are interchangeable, too. (http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson8.htm)

Sorry, if that gets a little bit too off-topic, but I somehow need some easy rules that are easy to keep in mind when talking about these conditionals. (At least your little 「はXが」 rule helps a lot understanding the problem/issue about these two particles and the correct usage, magamo!:))

To make it more complete..
たら=ば, basically "the same" (I'm being careful here now, you see..), whereas the first one does only get used in speech not in writing. As far as I understood, the latter puts more emphasis on S1 and the former on S2. Like f.e.
風邪薬を飲めば、体調がすぐ良くなる。 *If you drink this medicine against colds*, then your body condition will become better. <- S2 states that something will turn out to be good when S1 happens, in a way.

と was the conditional for rational/logical conditionals of the "if you add one to one, you will get 2"-type. It has lots of restrictions (s.a.) in its usage.
Reply