Besides the fact they don't use kanji (which makes it more difficult to read) the grammar used in children books is very hard for me and in general, reading a simple picture book usually recommended for 3 or 4 year olds is completely out of my league. How is this possible?

Because you're not used to Japanese.

Yeah... I know the feeling! Heh. I'm pretty sure it's, well, the kanji issue to start with; plus the vocabulary that people only use with children; plus the run-on sentences with lots of (often redundant) adjectives and adverbs chained together...

I also think the culture gap affects children's stories more. As foreigners, we know less about being a Japanese child than about being a Japanese adult (every textbook is full of stories about what it's like to be an adult in Japan and cautions about how it differs from the west! Plus all the relatively accessible adult media and communication with language exchange partners, etc.) It's easy for a children's story to make brief mention of something that every child will know about and imply a lot in a quick phrase, while a foreign adult has no clue what just happened.

I gave up on children's stories a long time ago, although I do peek at mukashibanashi sometimes, which have the challenges of modern children's stories plus antiquated language! And yet there are people that do start their learning with mukashibanashi and keep at it.

magamo Wrote:Because you're not used to Japanese.

Sometimes I wish there was a Facebook-style "Like" button on forums.

drdunlap Wrote:

magamo Wrote:Because you're not used to Japanese.

Sometimes I wish there was a Facebook-style "Like" button on forums.

there is on some forums. =)

some forums are even built on it! like reddit.

I find kids books weird (even in English). I remember trying to read one ONCE in Japanese and after the end of it I was like... this is kinda messed up, the language it uses is odd, it's not in anyway helpful and it was totally not even fun.

After that I promptly ditched the whole childrens book thing. Lots of people seem to go for it and I don't get why, it's not like you're children. I see the appeal of "It's aimed at kids so it will be easy" but in my experience I found that they we're just an anomaly better left alone.

Kids tv is another one. It's funny... I mean look at some of the things kids watch and as an adult it makes you want to die a little inside... It's also baffling as to how children actually enjoy watching that stuff. Though, when we were kids it was great and adult programs we're boring and didn't make sense. I think as an adult learning a foreign language, sometimes we and go back to how kids learn language (which is a good thing) but we ourselves can't go back to the mentality we had when we were a child.

I'd say... if you find they're not your thing, ditch em and find something that is.

magamo Wrote:Because you're not used to Japanese.

hiragana or katakana ONLY text are deadly, ask any native. They prefer kanji in there, it makes understanding text so easy

mezbup Wrote:I find kids books weird (even in English). I remember trying to read one ONCE in Japanese and after the end of it I was like... this is kinda messed up, the language it uses is odd, it's not in anyway helpful and it was totally not even fun.

After that I promptly ditched the whole childrens book thing. Lots of people seem to go for it and I don't get why, it's not like you're children. I see the appeal of "It's aimed at kids so it will be easy" but in my experience I found that they we're just an anomaly better left alone.

Kids tv is another one. It's funny... I mean look at some of the things kids watch and as an adult it makes you want to die a little inside... It's also baffling as to how children actually enjoy watching that stuff. Though, when we were kids it was great and adult programs we're boring and didn't make sense. I think as an adult learning a foreign language, sometimes we and go back to how kids learn language (which is a good thing) but we ourselves can't go back to the mentality we had when we were a child.

I'd say... if you find they're not your thing, ditch em and find something that is.

haha i know your coming from, not sure why I liked all those cartoon shows pack in the day, but when I do look at it now and compare it to the stuff I watch now. It's quite different but then again, with language learning it's really a different thing. I still look back at old shows I used to watch and see why I like them, it was fun to watch. That's the key here.

P.S. kana only texts are really hard to read, not sure if it's just me...

I don't know the background of any of you but assuming you are all native English speakers I can understand why you would dismiss the idea of studying from children material so easily.

My L2 was English and after many years of studying the language there was still a huge gap between my L1 level and L2. However, I only realized this when I decided to make my L1 as good as my L2. Some people are not even interested in this, I understand, but have this in mind in order to see where I come from with my posts. When I accepted that language is not just communication but culture as well, I started looking at other options to cultivate my English and started closing that gap. The same goes for Japanese.

You grow up reading these stories and watching those shows. They shape they way in which you think and help you develop your language skills. I know this is true because had I taught myself English otherwise I wouldn't be able to really understand the language.

It happens very often in the classroom that I want to express something that is hard to translate in Japanese. Obviously Japanese is not deficient, the problem is that I am not thinking in Japanese, from a language and cultural point of view.

I am not saying this is essential to learn Japanese but I think studying these books would help me understand how to actually think in Japanese which would lead me to a much better understanding of the language and allow me to communicate better.

**

It's like trying to understand pointers without understanding the architecture of a computing system. You can only get so far.

I think it's because of the unfamiliar vocab and context. Ogres, witches, kings, etc.

mezbup Wrote:Kids tv is another one. It's funny... I mean look at some of the things kids watch and as an adult it makes you want to die a little inside... It's also baffling as to how children actually enjoy watching that stuff. Though, when we were kids it was great and adult programs we're boring and didn't make sense. I think as an adult learning a foreign language, sometimes we and go back to how kids learn language (which is a good thing) but we ourselves can't go back to the mentality we had when we were a child.

are you just talking about japanese kids tv, or kids tv in general?

i remember a few years ago i started watching sesame street on youtube and i thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

bcrAn Wrote:I am not saying this is essential to learn Japanese but I think studying these books would help me understand how to actually think in Japanese which would lead me to a much better understanding of the language and allow me to communicate better.

perhaps, but you don't necessarily need children's books to think in japanese. there are many other things you can do.

昔話 are fun to read!
i used to read aesop's fables all the time when i was kid. i could still read them now, so　昔話 is quite refreshing and takes me back.


i also just randomly remembered how, in high school class, i was taught that green eggs and ham was written in iambic pentameter. >_<

bcrAn Wrote:I don't know the background of any of you but assuming you are all native English speakers I can understand why you would dismiss the idea of studying from children material so easily.

Did you mean to say "can't" here? It looks like you did. It appears only one person in this thread so far has dismissed studying from children's materials.

bcrAn Wrote:Besides the fact they don't use kanji (which makes it more difficult to read) the grammar used in children books is very hard for me and in general, reading a simple picture book usually recommended for 3 or 4 year olds is completely out of my league. How is this possible?

Children master the majority of their native language's grammar very quickly (particularly in comprehension). Even 4 year old children have very little trouble with relative clauses, causatives, passives, etc.

Kana being difficult to read is fairly typical but it should be considered a weakness in your Japanese, not a fact of life. Native speakers might groan about all-kana but they have no trouble reading a children's book.

bcrAn Wrote:Besides the fact they don't use kanji (which makes it more difficult to read) the grammar used in children books is very hard for me and in general, reading a simple picture book usually recommended for 3 or 4 year olds is completely out of my league. How is this possible?

Can you read this one? I'm sure you can read this one.

Yeah I meant can't.

I have to get that book now, but I would still prefer whatever his littler brother is reading (or being read to). I guess is just that I am doing things like Core and looking at all these adult-like sentences and feeling I am covering a lot but I can't understand material for babies, it's frustrating you know.

You shouldn't really consider it frustrating. People want to view things for children as "basic" but they're really not -- children have huge vocabularies and a good grammatical knowledge, and they're very good at learning new words. Some children's books are simple, but not all of them are.

"People want to view things for children as "basic""
This. I can't agree more.

Anything that contains a lot of unknown vocabulary is going to be difficult. Children's books aren't difficult, just the vocabulary that pops up is less likely to be something you've learned in a textbook or jlpt 対策 book or something. I think children's books make bad study materials though because they are expensive and don't actually contain all that much content (cool illustrations though), and a lot of it won't really be that useful to you. Surely the point of studying Japanese is to be able to access the kind of media that is actually interesting to you as an adult. I don't see why some people feel the need to fill-in knowledge gaps just in case. Just learn the words you need when you need them.

I think short novels aimed at 小中学生 are good study materials for beginners though, because they demonstrate well formed language, and have a lot of furigana so dictionary looks up are easier.

I'd say: Because they're boring and unusual for grown-ups.

I find them endearing, interesting, inspiring and I could go on.

I do agree that they are kind of expensive and contain little material though. I borrow them from my school anyway.

Another poster mentioned that they are a part of the shared cultural experience. I think that's a hugely important point and is one reason why I hold a slight interest in reading them at some stage. To learn from? Well, not my style but to get a broader understanding on the cultural background I think it's important.

I remember thinking/feeling that for the first time when I knew an Japanese 80's song and I felt a lot more in the loop for some reason. So, overall I think they have their place.

I went into the bookshop on my way to the groceries looking for whatever in Japanese with furigana in it but I couldn't find anything. I am specially looking for native sources that contain furigana, any ideas?

It depends on the book; some books are meant to be read to the kid from the parent, those are pretty hard. Then there are books that assume that the kid will read the book themselves (at least partly) - those are very helpful, as the grammar isn't overly complicated and they use simpler words.

@phyrex Would you provide examples or a way for one to search for what you are talking about? I can imagine there are books like that you are saying but I don't know their titles or a way to find them.

Some children's books are really hard. I once heard an interview with a best-selling children's author (can't remember his name but he also writes for adults) who said he doesn't simplify the language at all. For him the main difference between writing for children and writing for adults is the content of the story, not the complexity of the language.

He's not alone in this either. I remember helping my cousin ,who was two or three at the time, read, and finding I didn't know a few of the words she got stuck on. This was one of those big double-page picture with a single sentence books, and probably only had about a hundred words in total, so thats a very high concentration of unknowns. You might think I'm just stupid, but I usually get through an adult novel without coming across a single word I don't know (excluding made up ones).

So basically I'm saying don't be discouraged. There are books that are designed to be easier for children to read, but don't assume that they're all like that. The only Japanese childrens story I've read was Momotarou, and that was harder than the Souseki Natsume and Akutagawa Ryuunosuke short stories I'd read first. You're right about them being an important part of the culture though; I come across references to Momotarou all thetime. I'm definitely going to read the other famous children's stories, but I'll stick to simple manga and novels until my Japanese is better. =)