I think the answer to this question is that any material for native speakers is hard for learners at first. Children books are difficult, but not nearly as difficult as books written for adults.

@sunflower - What's up? ta12121 said he's not really into debates, yet you continued with "strawman fallacy", bolded quotes and criticism. Them's fightin' words. If you're in the mood to pick a fight, argue with Jarvik7. He likes it. ;p

You seemed rather aggressive from the get go. (Good that you deleted some comments.) You've been lurking, so you should know ta12121 readily admits any mistake and accepts constructive feedback (even out of line comments like yours) with extraordinary grace. He said "That was my mistake." Back off. I read the next line as: "I do remember [now] that it was a phonetic system with kanji." Benefit of the doubt?

You're probably also aware that ta reports on his progress to motivate others and has already responded to feedback from others on the details and frequency. In any event, it's totally unrelated.

Here's some background on kanji topic that might help:

We've had a few discussions here about natives being initially much slower reading all-kana text (in connection with how kanji are processing when reading.) Learners have even more difficulty b/c they go through a phase relying too much on kanji information and not enough on context. Those studies involved regular texts that'd been converted to kana. When ta12121 clarified that his comments weren't limited to kids' books, I imagine he also had those discussions in mind. He wasn't arguing that Heian authors weren't able to read their own pillow books...

J7 and ydtt dropped by to add correct historical info, so the high quality of the RTK Knowledge Base is safe. ;p It's all good. Breathe. (And maybe stop following twitters and blogs that bug you?)

Thora Wrote:@sunflower - What's up? ta12121 said he's not really into debates, yet you continued with "strawman fallacy", bolded quotes and criticism. Them's fightin' words. If you're in the mood to pick a fight, argue with Jarvik7. He likes it. ;p

You seemed rather aggressive from the get go. (Good that you deleted some comments.) You've been lurking, so you should know ta12121 readily admits any mistake and accepts constructive feedback (even out of line comments like yours) with extraordinary grace. He said "That was my mistake." Back off. I read the next line as: "I remember [now] that kanji have phonetic readings." Benefit of the doubt?

You're probably also aware that ta reports on his progress to motivate other people and has already responded to feedback from others on the details and frequency. In any event, it's totally unrelated.

Here's some background on kanji issue that might help:

We've had a few discussions here about natives being initially much slower reading all-kana text (in connection with how kanji are processing when reading.) Learners have even more difficulty b/c they go through a phase relying too much on kanji information and not enough on context. Those studies involved regular texts that'd been converted to kana. When he clarified that his comments weren't limited to kids' books, I imagine he also had those discussions in mind. He wasn't arguing that Heian authors weren't able to read their own pillow books...

J7 and ydtt dropped by to add correct historical info, so the high quality of the RTK Knowledge Base is safe. ;p It's all good. Breathe. (And maybe stop following twitters and blogs that bug you?)

I didn't delete anything in here. I corrected a typo and changed "meant to" to "intended". You are reading too much into my posts (I even apologized several times). Regardless you want me to continue even though you chastise me for doing so in the first place. If we are talking in school yard talk "them's fightin words" then why don't you let ta12121 stand up for himself? Really what do you really hope to gain by continuing this?

yudantaiteki Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:There was time period in japan where there was only hiragana texts. No kanji, no katakana, just hiragana. They later developed katakana and adopted kanji into there native text. The switch was because, hiragana only texts couldn't distinguish between meanings (that's why kanji was implemtend and made meaning clear and to the point. I'm sure you know kanji can have several of the same readings that other kanji have, so if it was only in hiragana-based texts, then it would be hard to know what it's "Real" meaning is)

Jarvik responded to this already, but just to explain further, this is completely backwards. Japan borrowed the kanji from China and used them to write Japanese in a confusing mix where you sometimes read the kanji phonetically, and sometimes read them for the meaning (i.e. kun-yomi). The Kojiki and Man'yoshu were both written in this mix, and there are still controversies over exactly how to read portions of these works (especially the parts where the kanji are supposed to be read with kun-yomi).

Katakana and hiragana were both developed independently from kanji -- the katakana by taking pieces of kanji, and the hiragana by simplifying cursive forms of the kanji. In the Heian period, much of the vernacular literature was written mostly in hiragana, although kanji were still used.

Using kanji was never a conscious decision made because hiragana were hard to read. It was a natural product of the fact that Chinese was considered prestigious and learned (sort of like Latin in the west), so using Chinese characters and loan words was a way to make your writing more educated. It also helped separate your writing from the writing that was considered feminine -- that is, writing mostly in kana and using few Chinese loan words.

Thanks for the reply. Yea I wasn't too familiar with this story but it's good to know about it in detail. Next time, I'll research things before discussing them (I'll at least state that It's coming from my own version and may not be what's the real story to it)

Sunflowersamurai Wrote:I didn't delete anything in here. I corrected a typo and changed "meant to" to "intended". You are reading too much into my posts (I even apologized several times). Regardless you want me to continue even though you chastise me for doing so in the first place. If we are talking in school yard talk "them's fightin words" then why don't you let ta12121 stand up for himself? Really what do you really hope to gain by continuing this?

I didn't need to read anything into your posts; your meanness was quite evident on the surface. Obviously I don't want it to continue. I responded b/c your post #48 was totally uncalled for.

ta12121 would rather acquiesce and avoid this kind of confrontation (which is understandable and probably wiser). :-) But I didn't think he should have to put up with your mean comments and opportunism. I don't think it's cool to slam someone twice out of left field and claim each time that you're not trying to argue or attack (oh...and if you're wrong about all that O/T criticism, you're sorry...)

I also thought the explanation about kana reading might clear up some apparent confusion. You know, the thread-related stuff?

About the deletion: I had glanced back at your post accusing ta1212 of letting the praise "get to his head" (nice) and thought you had deleted your snide observations about his project and twitter boasting and your criticism of his accent. (nice nice nice) But it turns out that friendly stuff was actually part of your previous post. My error, sorry. Pity I was wrong though. (Did i also miss your apology for that stuff?)

We've both expressed our views. No need to continue.

Good job, you should exchange phone numbers now(or Skype, it's free).

Thora Wrote:

Sunflowersamurai Wrote:I didn't delete anything in here. I corrected a typo and changed "meant to" to "intended". You are reading too much into my posts (I even apologized several times). Regardless you want me to continue even though you chastise me for doing so in the first place. If we are talking in school yard talk "them's fightin words" then why don't you let ta12121 stand up for himself? Really what do you really hope to gain by continuing this?

I didn't need to read anything into your posts; your meanness was quite evident on the surface. Obviously I don't want it to continue. I responded b/c your post #48 was totally uncalled for.

ta12121 would rather acquiesce and avoid this kind of confrontation (which is understandable and probably wiser). :-) But I didn't think he should have to put up with your mean comments and opportunism. I don't think it's cool to slam someone twice out of left field and claim each time that you're not trying to argue or attack (oh...and if you're wrong about all that O/T criticism, you're sorry...)

I also thought the explanation about kana reading might clear up some apparent confusion. You know, the thread-related stuff?

About the deletion: I had glanced back at your post accusing ta1212 of letting the praise "get to his head" (nice) and thought you had deleted your snide observations about his project and twitter boasting and your criticism of his accent. (nice nice nice) But it turns out that friendly stuff was actually part of your previous post. My error, sorry. Pity I was wrong though. (Did i also miss your apology for that stuff?)

We've both expressed our views. No need to continue.

You are mistaking directness for meanness because you disagree with that I said.

Also where is it accepted to not argue with someone simply because they do not want to argue? That's rubbish, like saying "no offence" then expecting people to not get mad if you say something offensive. It's childish, he doesn't want to argue because he doesn't know what he's talking about half the time. I don't claim to be an expert or even fluent in Japanese but I don't go around boasting about it either. edit: I should clarify this point, I don't think it's wrong to boast, but the fact that he has done so much doesn't remove him from criticism either.

He will start selling Japanese lessons or his "services" as he's stated many times, someone needs to hold him accountable to see if he actually has accomplished what he's only claimed to have done before he actually starts asking people (and trust me he has many followers that will) pay him for his method. I suppose you will be one of those that lines up to hand him your money right?

If nothing else I hope those other silent people that agree with me, but understandably don't want to say anything, I hope you guys do call out ta12121 when he starts trying to make money. It's possible he's totally legit, but everything we've seen from him doesn't exactly point to yes either. He can start whatever business he likes, he has a right to do so but what kind of community wouldn't police our own. If he's legit, it'll help him so he has nothing to lose anyway.

haha, I've been punk'd... right?

After talking to a few people it appears as though I have mistaken you for another forum poster, my bad I should have confirmed before posting, I've removed the offending paragraph.

Sunflowersamurai Wrote:It has bothered me for a while, and people seem to listen to TA as if he's one of the more knowledgeable people here like Jarvik7 or Nest0r(rip) to name a few...

First of all, I generally agree with you. But I really don't think anyone is being led astray by TA, under the impression that he's some kind of expert. Seriously, his posts mostly consist of random musings over fluency time-frames and statements that roughly equate to "I'm realising that if you put in effort, you get results".

Nothing wrong with that. As for the stats, it used to bother me too, but he has clarified multiple times that sharing updates on his progress is not intended as boasting. Furthermore, when requested by multiple users to mention it less frequently... he did.

Quote:...I've mostly been a lurker here, perhaps it's better I go back there.

I think you've got valuable things to contribute, and it'd be a shame if you go back to lurking. But... I really think it's fine to let people work out for themselves, as you have done, who's comments and advice they will notice/follow, and who's they will ignore.

Yes! We need need to to rise up against the insidious lies of Ta12121 and his polite motivational posts! He's the kind of scum that actually believes the nice things people say about him...

Sunflowersamurai Wrote:Weird I just saw this thread. I got to say I have no idea what you guys are talking about, I read about 200 or so kids books after finishing RTK and doing Tae Kim and a bit of Genki. I wanted something that I could read right away without too much trouble. I didn't have any trouble reading them despite lack of kanji. I had to look up words I didn't know, but that's about it. I actually quite enjoyed reading them as there was a limitless selection of topics to choose from and most of them have awesome illustrations not to mention they were easy and fast reads.

Also, I have never heard a native say "kana only texts are hard", seriously outside of this forum I've never heard anyone say that. It's not as if they are 500 page epics, or translations of the Odyssey. We are talking about 10-15 page books with maybe 8-10 sentences total, maybe twice as many sentences but really simple ones. Seriously, it wasn't even hard for me a total beginner at the time. Anything I found with more sentences than that, started to introduce kanji.

The book I read that was called something 王様 had about 120 pages, 10 or so pictures and about one kanji per page. The font was slightly larger than an adult book, but the text still filled the page. All the ones I found in the second-hand bookshop were similar. I assume they'd be 小学生 level or thereabouts, rather than the kindergarten stuff you're talking about.

Sunflowersamurai Wrote:I'm sorry I just do not buy natives thinking these are hard. I think that's what non-natives say to make themselves feel better. I even asked a native on skype just now and she said "of course not".

Again, I doubt people are talking about kindergarten books. ドラえもん has very few kanji, but it's very easy to read. If we're talking about a normal piece of text stripped of kanji, I don't see how you could argue that it wouldn't be more difficult.

bcrAn Wrote:Good job, you should exchange phone numbers now(or Skype, it's free).

lol

Splatted Wrote:Yes! We need need to to rise up against the insidious lies of Ta12121 and his polite motivational posts! He's the kind of scum that actually believes the nice things people say about him...

haha

Ok I'll set things straight here. I don't mind admitting making mistakes in what I say and I definitely know I am no expert on the matter of language fluency. All I can really say is what comes from my past experience so far. I don't mind answering any concerns anyway may have about me and my ridiculous stats I used to have. Even if people accuse me of anything, I'll still reply back and answer the questions you may have. I am not the type of person who runs away from being accused of anything, I'm a nice person so I have no worries when people say or accuse me of anything.

@Sunflowersamurai
I didn't think you were outright debating or intending anything mean from what your saying. You were just trying to point out some flaws in what I was saying and point out that people should question what I'm doing and what I'm saying. As for the online business, that is still a bit off (before I start launching it at the end of this year) but I do intend to make money off of it when I do start that. One thing I will do is be honest and answer questions that people may have (so it really be all about the users). So if you do have anymore questions, I don't mind answering anything you may have.

On the original topic-
Are children's books full of kana hard for adults to read?
I think yes, in terms of that they are awkward to read quickly, distinguishing where one work ends and another begins.
Are they hard for adults to understand?
No

I think they can be supprisingly difficult to read for foreign language learners because they use a very different vocabulary set to that of typical adult oriented textbooks (try having a conversation with a 5 year old Japanese kid about insects).
Also, they can often be quite stylised, with characters who have interesting ways of talking, or the whole book may be written in a slightly old fashioned style (again there is no exposure to this just reading textbooks etc.).
I also think that most young children, when they read a book, are not too concerned if they don't completely understand everything, as long as they get the general idea of the book and can enjoy reading it (therefore there is no need to completely avoid the use of obscure words in them).

mutley Wrote:I also think that most young children, when they read a book, are not too concerned if they don't completely understand everything, as long as they get the general idea of the book and can enjoy reading it (therefore there is no need to completely avoid the use of obscure words in them).

I think they understand all of it since they've had japanese exposure straight for at least 5yrs 6 yrs straight... whatever average age we're assuming. I personally don't remember not understanding words when i was reading children's book when i was a child... but then agai nit's just my old old memory.

I recently came to the conclusion that it is all about vocabulary. If you know the words, which even in kana texts can be told apart from one another, you can understand the text. I too thought, that kana only is a problem, because one word can potentially have many Kanji alternatives. And that it would make it easier to read and understand, because when it is Kanji, it can only mean this or that. But the truth seems to be that it is all about context that you can tell what it means in both Kanji and Kana forms. When a text comes with Kanji and Kana, you still have to know when and in which context a word is used in, to be able to say this means this and that means that.

So, yes, I think Kana only text is hard to read, when one is used to the mixture of Kanji and Kana in a text. Children books or not doesn't matter.

Anecdotal evidence: Back when I was teaching English (in Japan), every once in a while I would use a Dr. Seuss book with some of my higher-level adult students (this included people who lived overseas and were "studying" at the eikaiwa just to maintain their level). I always prefaced it as an exercise in getting the general meaning rather than worrying about each and every word. They still always found the books very difficult in large part due to the use of made-up words. As mutley said a couple of posts up, the stylized language and different vocabulary style make a huge difference.

For what it's worth, the books I used were How the Grinch Stole Christmas and The Lorax (tied in with the textbook lesson about the environment, conservation, etc). With the kids classes, I would use Green Eggs and Ham or 1 Fish 2 Fish once in a while.

Dr. Suess is kind of a special case though--like 20% of the words aren't even real words. They're meant to give an impression and feeling, or to be part of the poetry, and that is extremely difficult for non-native speakers.

I know that if I gave Dr. Suess to my high school students, they wouldn't be able to understand it at all. But there are plenty of more regular children's books that would be waaaay too easy for them.

I remember doing one series of lessons for 中三 where I had the class read through a children's book (Harry the dirty dog) over the course of 2 or 3 lessons. They were able to read it slowly with dictionaries and get the meaning of most sentences quite accurately, and this would have been their first exposure to authentic materials. It's all about knowing the words.

nadiatims Wrote:I remember doing one series of lessons for 中三 where I had the class ...

Sorry but I had to post. I'm sure you are talking about middle school, but Rikaichan gave 「中三」 the meaning of "highest ranking prostitute in Yoshiwara".

中三...! 'Harry the Dirty Dog'...! He he... The mind boggles : )

Nagareboshi Wrote:I recently came to the conclusion that it is all about vocabulary. If you know the words, which even in kana texts can be told apart from one another, you can understand the text. I too thought, that kana only is a problem, because one word can potentially have many Kanji alternatives. And that it would make it easier to read and understand, because when it is Kanji, it can only mean this or that. But the truth seems to be that it is all about context that you can tell what it means in both Kanji and Kana forms. When a text comes with Kanji and Kana, you still have to know when and in which context a word is used in, to be able to say this means this and that means that.

So, yes, I think Kana only text is hard to read, when one is used to the mixture of Kanji and Kana in a text. Children books or not doesn't matter.

same here. I noticed that it really comes down to getting used to the vocabulary,structure,patterns and understanding/memorizing it for the long-term. Other than this, later on kana only will be annoying and even hard at times. Kanji does make it easier than harder but initially it will probably be kana words easier than kanji words

I agree, kana only texts are really difficult to read and understand. Not only can the same 'word' actually be more than a dozen words, kanji also serve as spacing and makes me tumble over. Also, knowing just the kanji meanings can be enough to understand (most of) the sentence, kana forces you to know the kanji reading that is substituded as well. Most common words have common ways to write them, if 幸せ　is suddenly written as シアワセ, I'd tumble over and have no idea what is meant, and I'll check the text before what kanji it could be, check the text again if the katakana was meant to emphasize something (katakana is sometimes used that way) and end up being busy for 2 or 3 seconds, while the kanji form will be interpreted instantly.