on yomi and kun yomi means I do not know the difference between the too can someone help and give an example of both. I would be very grateful thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#Readings

Thank you but i have read this before and i still do not understand. When do i use the different types of meanings like in sentences for example.

different types of meanings? you mean readings?

generally kanji grouped together uses on yomi, kanji by itself uses kun yomi; that's a good rule of thumb though there are probably exceptions.

also think of it as being part of a word.

when you read "hour" you know the h is silent. you don't say "hower", or... "whore."

likewise when you see 僕の時計です。 you know that 時計 is not じけい because the word is とけい。

The short answer is: don't worry about it.
If you learn words with the kanji, you'll know that they mean and how to pronounce them, and probably won't ever need to worry about it.

But a little longer explanation. This is by no means a historical account of how it happened, but it's a really dumbed down version of what I think might have happened.

Kanji came from China, in their own language -- Chinese. The Japanese thought kanji was cool, so they tried to use them in their own language -- Japanese.

So when they tried applying these characters to their own language, they took the characters for their meanings; as for the meanings, they would either use the Original reading (the Onyomi) from China, ie in words that were mainly of Chinese origin; Or they would Konstruct a reading for it (the Kunyomi) by issuing it a Japanese word.

For example, we have the character 楽, which is used to mean "fun."
They used this character in the word 音楽 (おんがく） which (for sake of argument) is originally a Chinese word that they imported. It's pronounced がく because that's the Original reading from the old Chinese.

But wait, the Japanese already has a word for "Fun," and that's たのしい. So they decided to apply the character and make the word 楽しい. Thus, they Konstructed a new reading for 楽...that being たの.

So Kunyomi is the reading used in straight up Japanese words. You can tell, because Chinese doesn't have ひらがな, so if you see a kanji with ひらがな, it's probably using the Kunyomi.

On the other hand, Onyomi is the Original reading from Chinese. It's often used in compounds...because China has no ひらがな. So if you see a word all in kanji, there's a better chance that the kanji are read using the Onyomi. Not a hard rule though...

That's how they differ. The meanings generally stay the same throughout all the uses. Just worry about learning the words, along with the kanji that make them up, and you'll be fine.

kainzero Wrote:likewise when you see 僕の時計です。 you know that 時計 is not じけい because the word is とけい。

This is the takeaway point from my post too. You know the words, which helps you get used to the readings. Learning on/kun yomi and trying to fit it onto words is more difficult in my experience.

one more question I am close to finishing RTK so would you guys advise that I start making senteces maybe like 3 a day so when I finish I can jump right into sentences.

I recommend that after you finish RTK you either start looking through Genki Japanese (not that I've used it, but people seem to like it) or else Tae Kim's Guide http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar , at least up through 'essential grammar'. Add all the words and sentences from whatever grammar reference you choose to your deck first.

Once you have a rough understanding of Japanese grammar, you can go find sentences 'in the wild' ... try reading a manga or playing a game or whatever it is you want to know Japanese for.

I suspect you're trying to learn by immersion, but it's important to understand that even advocates of immersion learning don't advocate -pure- immersion learning. You do need to read about the basics to get oriented well enough to get started, and that means -some- kind of grammar text.

jordan3311 Wrote:one more question I am close to finishing RTK so would you guys advise that I start making senteces maybe like 3 a day so when I finish I can jump right into sentences.

are you coming from zero japanese level, and you started with RTK?
do you know kana?

depending on who you ask you will get all sorts of answers.

I know some japanese I taught myself hirigana and katakana then used smart.fm and then i came here

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I recommend that after you finish RTK you either start looking through Genki Japanese (not that I've used it, but people seem to like it) or else Tae Kim's Guide...You do need to read about the basics to get oriented well enough to get started, and that means -some- kind of grammar text.

This, although I'll add that Japanese the Manga Way is also good (especially since it deals with slang that's quite important for understanding real speech).

If you haven't already learned the kana then just get Heisig's Remembering the Kana- it literally only takes 3hrs (he even has you fill in the time spent on each section in little boxes to prove this)- then just grab an anki deck and SRS it. I'd do this before reading the grammar book.

After reading a basic grammar text you can start doing real sentences. A lot of people like the modified Rikaichan firefox plugin for grabbing sentences while skimming Japanese articles, but personally I get the majority of my sentences via subs2srs. You should have no problem jumping straight into subs2srs sentences of an anime/jdrama you've seen before and enjoyed if you just focus on the easy sentences (ie, i+0 and i+1). Morph Man can automate that last bit.

Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji are the three main writing system in Japanese. Don't let the differences intimidate you.

Onyomi is the Chinese derived reading of a Kanji, and Kunyomi is the Japanese derived reading. That is it.

Kanji dictionaries using Kana will using Katakana for Onyomi, and Hiragana for Kunyomi.

Kanji will range from having many Onyumi and Kunyumi, to having Onyumi or Kunjumi but not both. Also, some Kanji will be special readings.

Knowing the difference will allow you to find words quickly in a Kanji dictionary in aiueo order, as words will be ordered by their Onyomi followed by Kunyumi.

If you are still planning on using RTK don't worry about a general rule of thumb until you are finished, or start learning words.

Omoishinji Wrote:Kanji will range from having many Onyumi and Kunyumi, to having Onyumi or Kunjumi but not both. Also, some Kanji will be special readings.

It's "yomi" (読み), not 'yumi'.

Watch compounds. They can also have combinations:
例)　目上／目下(2 kun-readings, if i'm not mistaken)、根絶やし(same here, two kun-readings. Sorry for that stupid example, it was the first that came to my mind now lol) etc...

Tori-kun Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:Kanji will range from having many Onyumi and Kunyumi, to having Onyumi or Kunjumi but not both. Also, some Kanji will be special readings.

It's "yomi" (読み), not 'yumi'.

Watch compounds. They can also have combinations:
例)　目上／目下(2 kun-readings, if i'm not mistaken)、根絶やし(same here, two kun-readings. Sorry for that stupid example, it was the first that came to my mind now lol) etc...

It was a typo. Are absolutely sure that 目上 has two readings, and that 目下 has two Kunyomi.

Hiragana, Katakana, and Kanji are the three main writing system in Japanese. Don't let the differences intimidate you.

Onyomi is the Chinese derived reading of a Kanji, and Kunyomi is the Japanese derived reading. That is it.

Kanji dictionaries using Kana will using Katakana for Onyomi, and Hiragana for Kunyomi.

Kanji will range from having many Onyomi and Kunyomi, to having Onyomi or Kunyomi but not both. Also, some Kanji will be special readings.

Knowing the difference will allow you to find words quickly in a Kanji dictionary in aiueo order, as words will be ordered by their Onyomi followed by Kunyomi.

If you are still planning on using RTK don't worry about a general rule of thumb until you are finished, or start learning words.

Exceptions

楽　（らく） Onyumi
受付　（うけつけ）　Kunyumi
倶楽部　（クラブ）　Special Reading

楽
ガク　ラク　たの・しい　たの・しむ

So just have fun learning Japanese

Omoishinji Wrote:It was a typo. Are absolutely sure that 目上 has two readings, and that 目下 has two Kunyomi.

I only have seen: 目上【めうえ】、目下【めした】. I do not know any other reading, but perhaps someone can help out? 目上【もくじょう】 sounds strange to me.. Rikaisama only gives me the known めうえ reading. Or did I misunderstood you, Omoishinji? What did you mean with "two readings"? 下 has not only two readings, f.e. :)

Don't forget about 重箱読み (jyuubakoyomi) (which is an example of itself).

http://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/重箱読み

It's when a word contains a mixture of the two readings. An onyomi and a kunyomi. 重箱 is an example because じゅう is the 音読み for 重 and はこ is the 訓読み for 箱. Other examples are listed on the wiki page but really there are a lot. I learned about this when I studied for kanken. It's what makes Japanese a bitch.

Tori-kun Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:It was a typo. Are absolutely sure that 目上 has two readings, and that 目下 has two Kunyomi.

I only have seen: 目上【めうえ】、目下【めした】. I do not know any other reading, but perhaps someone can help out? 目上【もくじょう】 sounds strange to me.. Rikaisama only gives me the known めうえ reading. Or did I misunderstood you, Omoishinji? What did you mean with "two readings"? 下 has not only two readings, f.e.

I think by "2 kun readings" the person meant that the compound uses kun-yomi for both kanji. (You generally don't talk about a compound having a kun-yomi anyway).

I hesitate to post this in a thread started by a beginner (don't want to scare people too much), but Professor Unger, in one of his books, posted a list of ways that compounds can have odd readings that will trip you up:

1. On-kun (e.g. 利幅)
2. Kun-on (e.g. 更地)
3. On readings used unexpectedly (e.g. 頭が高い)
4. Kun readings used unexpectedly (e.g. 真に受ける)
5. Jukujikun (e.g. 玄人,　昨日)
6. Kanbun-derived readings (所謂, 為替)
7. Lack of rendaku where expected (間髪に容れず)
8. Rare alternate on-yomi (殺生, 行灯, 出納, 蛇行, 疾病)
9. False clues from phonetic elements (弛緩, 進捗)
10. Recent Chinese/Korean loanwords (飲茶)
11. Historical sound changes resulting in unpredictable readings (反古, 所為, 雪隠)
12. Unexpected sokuon (気風, 素気)
13. Unexpectedly dropped syllable from normal reading (読経, 音頭)
14. Unvoiced on-yomi that is normally voiced (読本)
15. Voiced on-yomi that is normally unvoiced (精進, 上戸)
16. Multiple kanji for one word (早い・速い, etc.)
17. Western loan words written in kanji (頁)
18. Same kanji compound read multiple ways depending on context (物心, 一見)
19. Compound that changes when embedded (文書 -> 古文書, 眼鏡 -> 天眼鏡)
20. Compounds that when flipped, result in a different set of readings (多数 vs. 数多, 隙間 vs. 間隙)
21. Kanji with multiple kunyomi that have the same representation (i.e. 暇 = いとま or ひま, 汚す = よごす or けがす)

Omoishinji Wrote:It was a typo.

..but you spelled it that way twice in that post and in your next post you spelled it yumi again.

You may KNOW that it's yomi, but in your active memory it seems to be yumi.
Slips of the tongue sometimes illustrate things that might need more study.

My granny says that it doesn’t really matter what kind of reading it is, what matters is how to pronounce WORDS in sentences. You'd better listen to everything you're learning. Neither kana nor kanji mark pitch accent, by the way.