I'm trying to plan to go to Japan as a foreign exchange student next fall
demo many of the foreign exchange programs require 2 years of highschool or university level Japanese or the equivalent to go with their program. since I am self studying I have no idea how much vocab/kanji/grammar I need to know in order to equate myself with that level of Japanese. any experiences or information any of you can share would be most helpful. arigatou gozaimasu

2 years of Uni are probably around JLPT N3, of course it depends on the uni. 2 years of HS Japanese are most likely much less than that, I guess around JLPT N4.

I took up to Japanese 201 with classes at two state universities, with the 201 class using Japanese: The Spoken Language/Written Language (which I wasn't a fan of), and the first two using Nakama. JSL sort of impairs its' users' writing by not teaching many kanji, and using romaji throughout the main book, which upset many of my classmates (though Nakama wasn't much better with kanji). 202 didn't go over much more from the looks of it. I'd guess that if JLPT 3kyuu/N4 tests are easy to you, then you've past the level that 2 years of classes would get you to. 2kyuu/N2 is way past it.

Honestly, It depends. Some programs are great, others terrible. I've had professors who have said, learning kanji isn't everything, just know how to recognize them, meanwhile other professors have suggested two hour a night regiments of studying kanji and vocab. Even with in the same program, same class, people finish at vastly different levels of ability After two years of College Japanese some people still couldn't read kana very fast, or string together basic sentences on paper or out loud, others knew 500 kanji and could have full, but basic conversations in Japanese. Even with a good program, it depends more on the student, than the program, book, or even the teacher. I speak from the personal experience of taking two and half years of college Japanese.

But to answer your question, after two years of Japanese, most beginning textbooks will have taught you the following

300-500 Kanji
1500-2000 Vocab Words
JLPT N4 Grammar

2 years of Classes only but nothing else?

- You won't be able to read a newspaper
- You won't be able to read a novel
- You won't be able to read Japanese websites
- You won't be able to understand mostly anything on TV
- You won't be able to have a decent/normal conversation with a Japanese person (unless he dumbed it down for you)


2 years of Classes + self-study?

- Then you can do everything above to a certain extent.

a.. sou desu ne

thanks for your replies I have a good idea of where I need to be by then I think
I'm at about 600 vocab and 500 kanji (RTK) and I don't know how far my grammar is

before you helped - itsu dare to doko de nani o shimasu ka.

after - ima wa wakarimasu
ganbarimasu
mo ganbatte ne

Realism Wrote:2 years of Classes only but nothing else?

- You won't be able to read a newspaper
- You won't be able to read a novel
- You won't be able to read Japanese websites
- You won't be able to understand mostly anything on TV
- You won't be able to have a decent/normal conversation with a Japanese person (unless he dumbed it down for you)


2 years of Classes + self-study?

- Then you can do everything above to a certain extent.

sums it up pretty well

semperanimus Wrote:a.. sou desu ne

thanks for your replies I have a good idea of where I need to be by then I think
I'm at about 600 vocab and 500 kanji (RTK) and I don't know how far my grammar is

before you helped - itsu dare to doko de nani o shimasu ka.

after - ima wa wakarimasu
ganbarimasu
mo ganbatte ne

i'd be wary of claiming to know 500 kanji with the RTK method.

when you're expected to know 500 kanji, that means you can read and produce common words with the kanji. writing kanji based on keywords in RTK doesn't mean much in real japanese (but it sets you up to learn real japanese).

at the end of my 2 years in community college we finished both genki 1 and genki 2. that would put you around a good chunk of JLPT N4 but not necessarily all of it.

4 years of high school is like 1 year of community college.

i do agree with leonl. some classes give out very easy tests, others are very strict and demanding and require exact translation and give out rough tests.

if you pass N4 it would probably be good enough proof for your exchange program. passing N3 would be like O_O!

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merlin.codex Wrote:Of course, there are people who slack but generally most people aim for JLPT (N)2 after the aforementioned 2 years.

Where do you to go university? Either you guys are working much harder than most Americans or you have a different system (more class time, different schedule, etc?). I went to a pretty reputable university with a well known Japanese program (I didn't take any Japanese classes, but some my friends did) and most people will be around JLPT N2 level after about 3 years, or 6 Japanese language classes w/ 5hours of class time per week.

I think it's pretty clear that when it comes to foreign language education, Europe (and much of the rest of the world) are a little more clued-in than us in the anglosphere... Much of Europe is effectively fluent in at least English by the time they graduate high school. Heck my mother learned 3 languages to fluency in highschool.

So for Merlin and his classmates, Japanese is most likely their third not second language, which would make it easier.

A guy from the UK told me he took 1kyuu after a year of study in the UK and a year in Japan- that was the way his course was set up. It sounded pretty intense.

But yes, the typical American/Aussie Japanese course won't get you very far after 2 years. Even after a full 3 year degree in Australia, I personally know a lot of students who still struggle to pass N2. I also know some who passed N1.

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Quote:I think it's pretty clear that when it comes to foreign language education, Europe (and much of the rest of the world) are a little more clued-in than us in the anglosphere... Much of Europe is effectively fluent in at least English by the time they graduate high school. Heck my mother learned 3 languages to fluency in highschool.

So for Merlin and his classmates, Japanese is most likely their third not second language, which would make it easier.

I was born and went to school in Europe as well so I'm pretty familiar with the system. I also learned 3 languages in High School (one of which I completely forgot afterwards). However, that didn't make learning Japanese any easier. I don't think that knowing any other language except for Korean (Grammar) or Chinese (Kanji) will make learning Japanese significantly easier. It's just too different from all the European languages.

I'm just really curious about merlin's curriculum in university. I think American higher education is by far the best in the world (and I'm saying this as a European) so I'm kind of interested in comparing the curriculum. I mean, if the European (Bulgarian?) curriculum requires more time spent per week it's no wonder that people reach a higher level faster. But if it doesn't I'm curious why it's working better and what the differences are. Another thing to consider is that Americans only have around 30 weeks of instruction per year (summer is optional and I don't consider it in my calculations). Maybe Europeans just go to school more? Do you have a link or something like that to your curriculum?

I don't think it's extremely impressive that reach JLPT N1 after 2 years of study if Japanese language is your sole focus. However, it would be very impressive to reach that kind of level after 2 years of study if you are only spending a few hours per week or you are studying Japanese on the side like most people in American university do. Even if your major is Japanese you'll only be spending a few hours a week (less than 10 including homework) on the actual language, a lot of the other stuff will be history, culture, and totally unrelated classes about subjects you are interested in. Maybe that's different in Europe?

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merlin.codex Wrote:Personally, I never really thought JLPT could accurately scope out your actual ability, since many of my classmates study hard for the exams (some want to be able to write words down and others just want to read them) and less in their free time. You can easily just study for the JLPT (the old format was way easier in my opinion) and take it without much worries.

It (at least N1) actually does a pretty good job of testing ability because, as far as I can tell, studying for the test doesn't land high scores. Knowing Japanese lands high scores since, as I've said before someplace around here, what the N1 is asking is simply if you're used enough to the language to get by as a native would. Even then, even if you ace the N1 that only says you have approximately the equivalent Japanese knowledge of a freshman in Japanese highschool. That doesn't include highly technical subjects, etc etc.

55-60% isn't a passing grade. It just passes the test. 8)

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In the UK at least, 2 years would equate to about JLPT N2, and 1000 Kanji. That's from about 10 hours of classes a week.

merlin.codex Wrote:What's the name of the program you're applying for, OP?

was thinking about twoworldsunited but am rethinking after reading some reviews on it
since I'm homeschooled it's kinda difficult to find a program that will accept me, especially in japan for some reason.

merlin.codex Wrote:That's certainly true but before the new format arrived, you could just breeze through it all (at least that was my impression when I used the old ones as reference). The new one is kind of random in terms of vocabulary and grammar used, so the whole experience is different, I think. Most of the ones who passed the old lvl1/2 had around ~95% on grammar just by memorizing the patterns (which you might as well forget in the next month), so I can hardly believe it gauges your skills properly. Same applies for most of the words.

You might be one of those who can't concentrate on a test, have a cold, want to go to the toilet, suck at listening only (having trouble remembering all the details, for instance), live in a different place so you couldn't get enough sleep and so on. Whatever the result, you get to see what you did right/wrong, so 55-60% is as a passing grade as any other from my point of view.

Not to derail too much more, but people should really stop selling themselves short. Not being good at taking tests is one thing, almost every single Westerner taking the JLPT N1 making a 60% on the test and being satisfied with that as "passing" is something completely different. That's not passing no matter how bad you are at test-taking. Let's wake up and aim for real proficiency. Which means acing the test and continuing forward. People who know the subject (in normal school classes) but suck at test-taking tend to make B's and C's instead of the A's they deserve. People who take the N1 end up making D's and F's. Let's change that standard. The idea that 60% = pass is おかしい enough. The idea that 60% = yay I know Japanese is even moreso.

While I was in Japan I saw a very nice scholarship requiring N1 proficiency. Korea, Taiwan and Chinese students were expected to make 165 or above on N1 (over 90%) to receive the scholarship. All other (=Western?) students were expected to make 135 or above (~75%). This is ridiculous. A large part of the problem is expectation. Even acing the N1 simply tells you that you're ready to start acquiring Japanese.

Let's make this Japanese thing a part of ourselves. Seriously.

More on topic- 2 years of classes will get you stuck in this idea that 60% is passing.
2 years of flooding (really, flooding) yourself with Japanese will put you in a prime position to receive 80 - 90+% on the N1 and begin your acquisition of the language on steady ground.

Wow, reading other people's posts on this makes me realize how bad American foreign language classes are. Most of the 4th year Japanese majors I talked to were around (or a little below) N2.

drdunlap Wrote:Not to derail too much more, but people should really stop selling themselves short. Not being good at taking tests is one thing, almost every single Westerner taking the JLPT N1 making a 60% on the test and being satisfied with that as "passing" is something completely different. That's not passing no matter how bad you are at test-taking.

A pass on the test is a pass on the test. Whether you pass your own standards is a different thing.

I do get your point tho, a marginal pass on N1 still means you have a way to go. Actually, on re-reading I probably agree with what you're saying, it's just worded kinda confusingly.

caivano Wrote:

drdunlap Wrote:Not to derail too much more, but people should really stop selling themselves short. Not being good at taking tests is one thing, almost every single Westerner taking the JLPT N1 making a 60% on the test and being satisfied with that as "passing" is something completely different. That's not passing no matter how bad you are at test-taking.

A pass on the test is a pass on the test. Whether you pass your own standards is a different thing.

I do get your point tho, a marginal pass on N1 still means you have a way to go. Actually, on re-reading I probably agree with what you're saying, it's just worded kinda confusingly.

Yeah that's why I put "passing" in quotation marks. It's technically enough to pass the test, but getting a little over 50% on a test that's supposed to ask if you understand a language.. that shouldn't mean too much unless the percentage goes up steadily as one continues to take the test. I just want to call people to strive for proficiency and not sell themselves short. 8)

drdunlap Wrote:Yeah that's why I put "passing" in quotation marks. It's technically enough to pass the test, but getting a little over 50% on a test that's supposed to ask if you understand a language.. that shouldn't mean too much unless the percentage goes up steadily as one continues to take the test. I just want to call people to strive for proficiency and not sell themselves short. 8)

Fair enough.

I almost see it as a bit like the car driving test (in the UK anyway). When you pass the test you're still a pretty terrible driver but if you're given a pass it means you're safe enough to not cause any accidents, so then you go on to really learn driving by yourself by driving around all the time. After a year or so you can look back on how good you were when you passed the test and think damn I was terrible

Well, think about it this way. I hear that Japanese natives typically get like in the 80s range on it, so if you can get that then I don't see how much better you could possibly do.