AlexandreC Wrote:Production requires an active knowledge of the language that exposure alone simply doesn't give you.

Finally, living in a given place does not make you sound like a native. Very few people achieve that feat even after years of living in a place. It goes without saying that the more different the language, the less likely it is to happen.

And who said you can learn to speak, write, and read a second language solely from exposure to it?

As Kuma01 said, if you're 90% there, the last 10% is easy. A few weeks after I moved to Jamaica, the only way you could distinguish me from a native Jamaican is if you asked me about something only a citizen would know. As far as speech was concerned, I was another youth from the block, not some American kid.

Kuma01 Wrote:

kitakitsune Wrote:So how many years of English classes have you taken in Sweden?

How many years of Spanish classes have you taken in high school? Are you fluent by now? Point made.

That's another thing I wanted to mention about my method; it's better than any class because it's been tuned specifically for me. One of the main problems with learning in a classroom is that it attempts a catch-all curriculum for all of its students, but you would be hard-pressed to find a method that is universally effective without taking into account individual idiosyncrasies.

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:Production requires an active knowledge of the language that exposure alone simply doesn't give you.

Finally, living in a given place does not make you sound like a native. Very few people achieve that feat even after years of living in a place. It goes without saying that the more different the language, the less likely it is to happen.

And who said you can learn to speak, write, and read a second language solely from exposure to it?

Kuma01 said:

"Now, I've never used English on a daily basis or even written much of anything in it, but I dare say I can talk about pretty much any subject with a native English speaker and I would never run out of words. I learned how to express myself in English simply by being exposed to it."

That's who said it.

vgambit Wrote:As Kuma01 said, if you're 90% there, the last 10% is easy.

It's the other way around. If you're 90% there, the remaining 10% is -- by a huge margin -- the hardest, not the easiest. At that point, the work that remains is the hardest and requires much bigger efforts and time then at the beginning. What's left are the things you could never figure out or fix before.

vgambit Wrote:By not speaking before the time is right, my pronunciation will be clear, and my sentences will be correct. Even if my speech sounds like an amalgam of several different dialects, as I said before, that can be corrected quickly and easily once I get to the point where that becomes an issue.

Japanese requires use of different mouth muscles and tongue movements. What's the mechanism that unconsciously trains muscle memory to accurately produce such things? Can you be confident you've avoided typical errors like using stress or syllables, botching ら行, being more 'i' than い? Can you guarantee you're even recognising pitch right now?

I don't know why you believe it's easy to correct pitch. Could an 青森人 learn to speak flawlessly like an 大阪人 on a whim? You're talking about memorising thousands of patterns and producing ALL of them without reverting to what you originally learnt - completely unconsciously! If you do arrive with inconsistent pitch after years of exposure, what's the strategy to ''quickly" correct it? This is probably what I'm most interested in, since I've attempted it myself with difficulty.

vgambit Wrote:Do you need to practice speaking? Yes. Will doing so make you get better at it? No. Learning new words and grammar points does y.

Why do you need to practise something that can't be improved through practice? Random input isn't an out-of-the-bag personalised speaking style, and you'll start to feel its limitations when you interact with real people in real situations. Why do young Japanese people struggle with speaking 敬語? I doubt they have difficulty understanding it. Whether it's 10%, 2% or 50%, speaking requires doing, and its only then you'll discover what your own percentage actually is.

vgambit Wrote:Will speech practice make you sound better, if you imitate native speakers?

Yes and no. Without awareness, you'll indeed be imitating, rather than reproducing. I did a ton of listening and shadowing, and was still corrected in a number of areas when I got some free pronunciation lessons. Nothing is guaranteed when you leave everything to your English-speaking unconscious and your own judge is yourself.

vgambit Wrote:By not speaking before the time is right, my pronunciation will be clear, and my sentences will be correct.

When is the time going to be right? You started 5 years ago...

vgambit Wrote:Do you need to practice speaking? Yes. Will doing so make you get better at it? No. Learning new words and grammar points does that. Will speech practice make you sound better, if you imitate native speakers? Yes.

What a few of us have been trying to tell you is that you need to start practicing speaking the language. And of course practice makes you better -- even self-talk will make you better. So instead of arguing with us that it will all magically become perfect soon, look at the facts -- you aren't comfortable speaking the language after 5 years of study! Do you think that perhaps you need to start taking care of that aspect of learning Japanese? You can choose to ignore speaking if you plan to never, ever, speak the language, but then don't pretend it will magically happen on its own, because it won't.

He can just practice speaking when the time arises that he needs to... ie. meets some Japanese people. And when that time comes it will be all the easier after having a solid 5 years of listening practice. If you're not meeting Japanese people, what benefit does practicing speech even bring? Why not just spend that time enjoying the language.

I don't see what the big deal is here.

I'm not sure how I should deal with reading Japanese.. I feel so discouraged at some point when I read "easy" stuff like キノの旅 and still encounter words or whole sentences I do not understand while reading (= decreasing fun, because I cannot understand everything). It feels like this demotivation I face when reading Japanese sometimes brings me into a 悪循環 in a way and my learning turns into something forceful and only something in a "box"/nutshell, which is Anki in my case (for ~40 minutes)...

nadiatims Wrote:He can just practice speaking when the time arises that he needs to... ie. meets some Japanese people. And when that time comes it will be all the easier after having a solid 5 years of listening practice. If you're not meeting Japanese people, what benefit does practicing speech even bring? Why not just spend that time enjoying the language.

I don't see what the big deal is here.

Sure. Expect that the OP is looking for the most efficient way to learn Japanese.

right. So how is it more efficient that he learns to speak now as opposed to later? (when he actually has a specific need)

nadiatims Wrote:right. So how is it more efficient that he learns to speak now as opposed to later? (when he actually has a specific need)

Speaking takes time and practice. There is nothing efficient about waiting over 5 years to begin practicing. It's not an on/off or instant process, it's long gradual process where new knowledge builds on previous achievements. If he is ever to speak, he needs to get started; waiting and postponing is not efficient.

Tori-kun Wrote:I'm not sure how I should deal with reading Japanese.. I feel so discouraged at some point when I read "easy" stuff like キノの旅 and still encounter words or whole sentences I do not understand while reading (= decreasing fun, because I cannot understand everything). It feels like this demotivation I face when reading Japanese sometimes brings me into a 悪循環 in a way and my learning turns into something forceful and only something in a "box"/nutshell, which is Anki in my case (for ~40 minutes)...

I'd recommend to keep at it, but if the struggle is too demotivating then perhaps try using some tools to assist you.

Tori-kun Wrote:I'm not sure how I should deal with reading Japanese.. I feel so discouraged at some point when I read "easy" stuff like キノの旅 and still encounter words or whole sentences I do not understand while reading (= decreasing fun, because I cannot understand everything). It feels like this demotivation I face when reading Japanese sometimes brings me into a 悪循環 in a way and my learning turns into something forceful and only something in a "box"/nutshell, which is Anki in my case (for ~40 minutes)...

I understand how you feel. But there is no quick and easy way to cram vocab besides memorizing it with anki. All I can say is that if you keep reading and SrSing words you run across eventually you will start running into unknown words less and less and it will get more enjoyable. There really is no going around that in the beginning, just cut yourself some slack instead of punishing yourself.

AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking takes time and practice. There is nothing efficient about waiting over 5 years to begin practicing.

Speaking takes knowledge over everything else. I haven't been "waiting 5 years to begin practicing." We've been over this.

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking takes time and practice. There is nothing efficient about waiting over 5 years to begin practicing.

Speaking takes knowledge over everything else. I haven't been "waiting 5 years to begin practicing." We've been over this.

But 5 years of knowledge is a lot -- you are ready! You have all the knowledge you need to get started. We've been over this too.

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking takes time and practice. There is nothing efficient about waiting over 5 years to begin practicing.

Speaking takes knowledge over everything else. I haven't been "waiting 5 years to begin practicing." We've been over this.

But 5 years of knowledge is a lot

How so?

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:Speaking takes knowledge over everything else. I haven't been "waiting 5 years to begin practicing." We've been over this.

But 5 years of knowledge is a lot

How so?

How so?!

You have created what you think is the most efficient plan of study for yourself and after 5 years, you don't think you've accumulated lots of knowledge?!

I haven't been studying for as long as you, but because I put a lot of emphasis on speaking, I'm already very comfortable having Japanese-only conversations. Yet, I wouldn't be surprised if you had more knowledge than me, so you are definitely ready to get started!

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:But 5 years of knowledge is a lot

How so?

How so?!

You have created what you think is the most efficient plan of study for yourself and after 5 years, you don't think you've accumulated lots of knowledge?!

"Five years ago, the moment I decided to learn Japanese, I instantly knew what I had to do in order to become fluent, and started spending all of my free time on studying the language."

Again, I ask you, please tell me which one of my posts sounds like the above.

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:How so?

How so?!

You have created what you think is the most efficient plan of study for yourself and after 5 years, you don't think you've accumulated lots of knowledge?!

"Five years ago, the moment I decided to learn Japanese, I instantly knew what I had to do in order to become fluent, and started spending all of my free time on studying the language."

Again, I ask you, please tell me which one of my posts sounds like the above.

?

Would it hurt so bad to even consider the advice we're giving you?

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:How so?!

You have created what you think is the most efficient plan of study for yourself and after 5 years, you don't think you've accumulated lots of knowledge?!

"Five years ago, the moment I decided to learn Japanese, I instantly knew what I had to do in order to become fluent, and started spending all of my free time on studying the language."

Again, I ask you, please tell me which one of my posts sounds like the above.

?

Would it hurt so bad to even consider the advice we're giving you?

"Talk!"
"No, I'm not ready"
"Yes, you are!"

What more is there consider? Pretty much every reason I have to keep my mouth shut has already been posted, not to mention users who have told stories of their own successes with not talking.

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:"Five years ago, the moment I decided to learn Japanese, I instantly knew what I had to do in order to become fluent, and started spending all of my free time on studying the language."

Again, I ask you, please tell me which one of my posts sounds like the above.

?

Would it hurt so bad to even consider the advice we're giving you?

"Talk!"
"No, I'm not ready"
"Yes, you are!"

What more is there consider? Pretty much every reason I have to keep my mouth shut has already been posted, not to mention users who have told stories of their own successes with not talking.

In that case, keep doing what you are doing. Best of luck.

If you don't think you're ready just stay silent until you are. However, I'll tell you from my experience thinking the same thing that, if you're set on not speaking until you feel you're ready, you may find that you never really feel ready despite your level of knowledge. I had to eventually just ignore that thought and force myself into speaking but when I did it only took a few weeks to flow into a smooth rhythm. Just go for it one day when you're feeling good.

I feel the need to add some nuance to my earlier statements. While I do believe that one should not force production before having a well developed understanding of the language as a whole, I do certainly not believe that only listening and reading will make you better at speaking. I think it does help establish patterns that you can then use to speak. For instance, I'm sure I have an accent when I speak English, but I can express myself just fine. Similarly, input might make you capable of expressing yourself but it certainly won't make you sound pitch perfect, the only way to do that is to work on it specifically.

If I may add something...

I've read a fair number of AlexandreC's comments on various topics and I'm often in at least partial disagreement with him (although I'm reasonably certain we're from the same province in Canada, if that matters ).

However, I agree with him here.

If you've studied any language for five years or more - and I mean, seriously studied, not just futzing around - then you should be ready to speak. If you're not, or feel that you're not, then it's time you adjusted your study methods to include speaking practice if at all possible.

Please understand that this isn't a religious argument for me, but a practical observation based on many, many interactions with people learning another language. In fact, my main basis for this is my Japanese friends who feel embarrassed speaking English because they feel that after six years of study (on average), they should be able to have a conversation in English. They can't, and the reason is usually that they've spent six years studying English vocabulary and grammar but they've never practiced conversation. It blows my mind that any language study would leave out conversation, but this was (and may still be) the principal way English is studied in Japan.

Reading is a skill. Listening comprehension is a skill. And speaking...is a skill. If you want to get better at something...you need to practice that something.

Also, one more point of agreement with AlexandreC: that whole 90%-10% thing? It's called the Pareto Principle (although it's also known as the 80-20 rule). The last bit of learning takes the longest, for the least amount of gain.

It's either that, or I shouldn't post after <mumble number> of drinks...

mlorenz Wrote:In fact, my main basis for this is my Japanese friends who feel embarrassed speaking English because they feel that after six years of study (on average), they should be able to have a conversation in English. They can't, and the reason is usually that they've spent six years studying English vocabulary and grammar but they've never practiced conversation.

Actually Japanese English language instruction frequently includes output in the form or repeating and shadowing, and memorising and practicing of dialogues. Especially at Junior highschools, I'd say it's a good 30% of how classroom time is spent. The reason most Japanese people can hardly speak after 6 years of English education and tend to have very thick accents is lack of raw listening practice and woefully insufficient vocabulary. They also almost never make use of non-learner materials. The amount of time a japanese student has spent listening to or reading real material intended for native speakers is pretty close to zero.

mlorenz Wrote:Also, one more point of agreement with AlexandreC: that whole 90%-10% thing? It's called the Pareto Principle (although it's also known as the 80-20 rule). The last bit of learning takes the longest, for the least amount of gain.

Exactly... getting the perfect accent takes a long time for relatively little gain, so focusing on it from the outset makes little sense. Focusing on listening/reading comprehension will give more practical benefit because it allows you to enjoy the language more. If you encounter Japanese people in your daily life, then by all means speak with them. But the idea that you should focus on speaking practice is not good advice for learners.

I'm only basing this on personal experience (I've taught English in Japan for three years), which can be a bit misleading, but I think mlorenz is completely right. The reason students can't speak any English is because they've never practiced conversation.

Now, in general I can't practice much conversation with the kids because I have too many students and many of my classes have 40 kids in them. But there are some situations where I can have the chance to talk with students individually: if they are in English club or if I have them in a small oral communication class. In both cases the students get a lot better at speaking really quickly. No amount of shadowing or listening will teach them to actually talk--I know because they get shadowing and listening regularly in all their English classes but they never get any good at talking. But if they actually have coversations on a regular basis they start to get better at it.