kainzero Wrote:As for burnout, Thora linked to a book called Willpower with an interesting thesis behind it according to the description on Amazon. I haven't read it yet, although it's sitting in my Kindle waiting to be read after I finish the book Brain Rules which was recommended by nest0r on the RTK wiki.

There isn't a Kindle version is there? I was looking at it before, but I've been avoiding non-Kindle books lately. As for 脳科学, I'm finding Rewire Your Brain quite interesting and practical, and also picked up a copy of 脳力育成HACKS! in Book Off. It appears to have mixed reviews because of the ストーリー展開 the author strangely chose to use, but this makes it all the more approachable for 日本語学習者 and means you can learn about something a bit "book-ish" while still being exposed to conversational language.

kainzero Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:I think the trouble is that you haven't read everything I've said. I think I've made it clear that this method is the right way... for me. Not even anyone else, necessarily. But I've tried a hell of a lot of different methods before settling on this one that I mostly cobbled together on my own from other people's methods.

The trouble is that you have an inflammatory thread title, followed by paragraphs written in the imperative, and the only sentence we have that it's your own personal way is in the second post, which is also a little bit vague.

Were it not written like that, I would actually agree with a lot of advice you were given and we would have avoided this whole thing.

So in attempt to calm all these people saying RTK-is-doomed, we can actually have a decent rational debate and exploration of your topics.

Lots of sentences have different meanings when taken out of context, and thread titles are no different. The paragraphs are written in the imperative because I'm telling people what to do if they want to follow the path I'm on. The fact that I'm the one describing the method is enough for people to know that it's mine. I felt I had to explain the thread title in order to keep people from going "What do you mean, the 'right' way?! XYZ method is much better!"

kainzero Wrote:1: Switching game language for simple games.
-I'm not finding this to be too effective. I've switched my Facebook profile to Japanese but I find myself ignoring most words since I pretty much understand the meaning and don't need to read it. The only time I'm in trouble is with security updates, since I have no idea what they're talking about. I sometimes switch my OS to Japanese to play certain... games, and it is a hassle when it changes GIMP/Picasa/Audacity to Unicode since my focus is not to learn Japanese in that instance but to process pictures or audio.
-At a better level, I can see it being useful. Playing games with fluency is definitely a goal of mine.

I tried switching my OS language to Japanese, and all it did was get in the way of my productivity. Maybe it won't really help much at all, but it can't hurt. It's nice to be able to enjoy Japanese media the same way that Japanese people do, even if you can't understand all of it yet.

kainzero Wrote:2: Japanese TV
-The problem with Game Center CX is that there's quite a bit of Kansai-ben and a lot of vocabulary is game specific. But still, I support the idea of native material, since I've been watching AKBINGO and all sorts of AKB-related shows. Arino actually came to an arcade in LA last Friday, I took a photo with him. =)

I'll worry about what dialect I speak after I can speak.

kainzero Wrote:3: Japanese Books
-When I read the four strands of language learning, I became convinced that there is a difference between reading for fluency and reading to learn. I feel like those should be separated. If we always read books where we have to constantly define so many words, it becomes a hassle. I feel like there should be reading where you don't look anything up at all in addition to the strict, look-up-every-word type of reading.

I actually think it's important to minimize the amount of dictionary referencing done as much as possible. This is why manga can be so effective; it has less words, but just as much story as a novel thanks to situations being illustrated rather than described.

kainzero Wrote:4: Output
-I've been practicing a lot through email and I've improved a fair bit. I can write decent emails now, but my conversation is absolutely horrible because I don't practice. I feel like the input hypothesis (all input, zero output until you're "ready") is absolutely bogus if you want to learn how to write or speak. I think that you'll certainly have an advantage with input and that it doesn't hurt to wait. However, there are times when you want to say something, you've heard it said in Japanese before, but because you never tried to say it you didn't commit that structure to your head. I still make simple past/non-past tense errors in conversation that I wouldn't ever have in written communication.

I find that I'm pretty good at conversation using the extremely narrow vocabulary I have, so to each his own.

kainzero Wrote:As for burnout, Thora linked to a book called Willpower with an interesting thesis behind it according to the description on Amazon. I haven't read it yet, although it's sitting in my Kindle waiting to be read after I finish the book Brain Rules which was recommended by nest0r on the RTK wiki.

I've gone through books like those before. It doesn't help much when I simply don't place a high enough priority on language learning to make the sacrifices needed to make worthwhile progress on it.

kainzero Wrote:I think it takes some patience to go through Anki decks and vocab lists though, and perhaps this is something that can be built up over time. I'm envious of those who can do deliberate study for more than 2 hours a day; I think I peak at about 1 hour a day before I start immersing, in which I learn a LOT less but at least enjoy myself somewhat.

It does take patience. The main issue I've found with extended study is when it isn't kept up. Studying an hour a day is fine, until you miss a day. Then suddenly you have two days worth of work backed up, and you won't make as much progress in that same amount of time as you normally would.

There is that study method of reviewing 10 things, then learning 5, and repeating, but that can often exacerbate the problem.

Javizy Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:As for burnout, Thora linked to a book called Willpower with an interesting thesis behind it according to the description on Amazon. I haven't read it yet, although it's sitting in my Kindle waiting to be read after I finish the book Brain Rules which was recommended by nest0r on the RTK wiki.

There isn't a Kindle version is there?

??? kainzero said it's been sitting on his Kindle, and if you clicked his link, you'd see that there's a Kindle version.

:confused:

I must admit at this juncture in my learning I have a lot more fun sitting with my dictionary open and just watching tv picking at words I don't know rather than sitting reading vocab lists (my vocab is my worst point i think, cos i can't learn from lists.. i just hate it)

There is no right way surely? people learn in different ways.. so trying a bit of everything until you figure out your own way is best.
I don't get the don't speak thing. I wish i had the balls to speak earlier, people fix your mistakes without meaning to, just pay attention to peoples reactions and what they say.
You do it in English too, you probably just don't realise. Speaking is the only way to get good at speaking, its an entirely different skill to be trained.

vgambit Wrote:Unless you want a bad accent, don't talk until you know exactly what you're saying.

AlexandreC Wrote:Uh oh. Tell me you're not advocating some kind of silent period crap, please...

vgambit Wrote:I'll advocate whatever I damn well please. Doing what I do is your choice and yours alone. If you want to start speaking broken Japanese from day one, then by all means, do so. Nobody's holding a gun to your head.

Let's move past the childish animosity and try to reason a bit. Surely you understand that if you "advocate whatever you damn well please" without anything to back it up, no one will take you seriously.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that too many people throw around the words "silent period" without ever offering anything to back it up, and that too many people fall into the trap of believing that it makes sense, in part -- if not entirely -- because it would just be so much easier if it were true. You are even threatening us with "Unless you want a bad accent".

Surely you must have pretty good proof to show us if you are that confident. Remember -- YOU want to show US how to be EFFICIENT, and that obviously implies that you wouldn't make us just wait... unless it were efficient to do so.

I'm interested in that proof, or in your logic, at least. In an effort to avoid people believing in some magic snake oil and wasting their time, I'd kindly ask you to explain why you think that refraining from speaking should help you speak better.

Would you refrain from reading so you can read better?
Would you refrain from listening in the hopes that you'll one day understand every thing all of a sudden?
Would you refrain from writing for fear of picking up bad writing habits?
Then why would you refrain from speaking? Why would you or should you refrain from practicing something you want to improve?

Speaking a language fluently requires a huge amount of mental planning and training. Words do not suddenly line up perfectly, in a flash, even if you've read or heard similar words many times. You have to line them up slowly first, and do it so often that the process eventually speeds up to the point where, if you've worked and practiced hard enough, they will line up more or less effortlessly without significant pauses or hesitations.

Pronunciation too is a series of precise and subtle muscle movements in very quick succession and that too requires a huge amount of planning and practice. And this is NOT a simple process, and it's NOT a quick process, and it's NOT an automatic one either. You can't just skip it and hope that it all poofs itself into place.

In order to speak better, to pronounce better, to become more fluent, you need to speak MORE and you need to practice MORE, as early as possible -- not avoid the task entirely.

vgambit Wrote:I'll worry about what dialect I speak after I can speak.

The point was that Kansai-ben has a lot less carry over to the rest of the language... Unless of course, you live in Kansai and need it to communicate, or if you like watching those TV shows.
Whenever I feel like making a Japanese friend laugh I just randomly speak in Kansai-ben, lol.

vgambit Wrote:I actually think it's important to minimize the amount of dictionary referencing done as much as possible. This is why manga can be so effective; it has less words, but just as much story as a novel thanks to situations being illustrated rather than described.

I think there is a lot of value in doing things where you should know 99% of what's being said/written. The problem I'm finding with TV/Manga/Japanese subtitles is that even though you still know what's going on, it doesn't mean you can readily identify what's being said and learn language from context.
I've watched a lot of dramas with JP subs or no subs, and I feel like there's a fair bit of time where I'm tuning out what's being said and just focusing on either what's being written or what's going in the scene. Great for entertainment (which is necessary), but not as effective for learning.

vgambit Wrote:I find that I'm pretty good at conversation using the extremely narrow vocabulary I have, so to each his own.

There are a lot of a times when I wanted to say something, but had no idea what to say, and I could only identify those times when I was in that situation.
One thing that seemed fairly obvious was when I was ordering in a Japanese restaurant. How do you say that you're done with your order? I had no idea, and the only input I had was 終了 or 終わります。I've never seen that situation in any drama/TV show/book, and I'd probably have to really get a ton of input just to find that specific scene. My friend later told me to say 以上です or それだけです。
The cool thing is that you can say 終了 or 終わります and they will understand perfectly even if it is incorrect and funny sounding, as I also found out.
There are also words that I can understand if I read it but they haven't entered my usable vocabulary, and if I heard it I probably wouldn't understand it either. 浄水器 being one of them, since I needed to ask a waiter if the water was filtered for my overly-concerned pregnant sister-in-law.

gingerninja Wrote:I must admit at this juncture in my learning I have a lot more fun sitting with my dictionary open and just watching tv picking at words I don't know rather than sitting reading vocab lists (my vocab is my worst point i think, cos i can't learn from lists.. i just hate it)

I really feel like lists are super efficient and help so much more, but they're definitely not as fun and a chore to slog through. For me it's like cardio, I hate cardio but when I'm done and I look back, I'm glad that I did it.

As for speaking...
I know a few people who've lived in LA for a long time and have bad English accents. It's not as simple as "listen to other people and you'll have a perfect accent." Accents have to be trained exclusively to be eliminated, and personally I have no problem with having an accent at this stage of my learning as long as I can be understood. What will a bad accent get you? "You're not native Japanese"? And like Gingerninja said, people will unconsciously correct you if it sounds broken and unnatural, and you will unconsciously pick it up and adjust. It's great.

AlexandreC Wrote:-Rant-

http://www.antimoon.com/how/mistakes-damage.htm
http://www.spanish-only.com/2010/12/list...als-speak/

AlexandreC Wrote:Would you refrain from reading so you can read better?

No. I know how to read and can't mess it up, so practicing it is safe.

AlexandreC Wrote:Would you refrain from listening in the hopes that you'll one day understand every thing all of a sudden?

No. No mistakes can really be made while listening, you can only improve. No reason to refrain from doing it.

AlexandreC Wrote:Would you refrain from writing for fear of picking up bad writing habits?

Unless you're talking about bad habits like stroke order etc, then this is the same as the speaking argument. Unless I was getting proper feedback for my writing, like on lang-8 or something, then I wouldn't write just for the hell of it.

AlexandreC Wrote:Then why would you refrain from speaking? Why would you or should you refrain from practicing something you want to improve?

Because when you're an absolute beginner, practicing speaking would mostly be practicing something that's not correct. You don't know what proper pronunciation is supposed to sound like, yet you "practice" it. You might be making mistakes every or every other sentence, "practicing" would be reinforcing these mistakes and potentially creating bad habits.

AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking a language fluently requires a huge amount of mental planning and training. Words do not suddenly line up perfectly, in a flash, even if you've read or heard similar words many times. You have to line them up slowly first, and do it so often that the process eventually speeds up to the point where, if you've worked and practiced hard enough, they will line up more or less effortlessly without significant pauses or hesitations.

You're gonna have to call that your own opinion/experiences. Otherwise you really should look into the input theory more and the success people are having with it.

AlexandreC Wrote:Pronunciation too is a series of precise and subtle muscle movements in very quick succession and that too requires a huge amount of planning and practice. And this is NOT a simple process, and it's NOT a quick process, and it's NOT an automatic one either. You can't just skip it and hope that it all poofs itself into place.

No one here is stupid enough to think that we can just not practice speaking at all and then one day sound like a native all of a sudden. There comes a time when we NEED to speak, and yes it needs practice just like every other element. It's speaking from DAY ONE that people are saying is bad. Waiting a little until you're more or less used to the sounds of the language and you can make yourself understood without messing up all the time is what people are arguing for.

AlexandreC Wrote:Let's move past the childish animosity and try to reason a bit. Surely you understand that if you "advocate whatever you damn well please" without anything to back it up, no one will take you seriously.

That is the prerogative of those who choose to read what I have to say.

AlexandreC Wrote:Personally, I'm of the opinion that too many people throw around the words "silent period" without ever offering anything to back it up, and that too many people fall into the trap of believing that it makes sense, in part -- if not entirely -- because it would just be so much easier if it were true. You are even threatening us with "Unless you want a bad accent".

Surely you must have pretty good proof to show us if you are that confident. Remember -- YOU want to show US how to be EFFICIENT, and that obviously implies that you wouldn't make us just wait... unless it were efficient to do so.

I'm interested in that proof, or in your logic, at least. In an effort to avoid people believing in some magic snake oil and wasting their time, I'd kindly ask you to explain why you think that refraining from speaking should help you speak better.

Would you refrain from reading so you can read better?
Would you refrain from listening in the hopes that you'll one day understand every thing all of a sudden?
Would you refrain from writing for fear of picking up bad writing habits?
Then why would you refrain from speaking? Why would you or should you refrain from practicing something you want to improve?

The funny thing about accents is that they are neither here nor there. Someone can be terrible at a language, but have no discernible accent when speaking it, or great at a language, but with an obnoxious foreign accent.

I personally don't bother to practice speaking very much. On my list of priorities with the language, it ranks lowest, but let me be clear: I do not think that it's bad to practice speaking. The thing is, you have to differentiate speaking from output. If you have a sentence that you're listening to and repeating, great. If you're trying to draw on your own knowledge to make up a new sentence, not so great. It'll probably be wrong. Which is fine, if you're ok with having broken speech, but I'm not.

I'm from New York City. Most of the people who live there come from other countries, making English their second language. Even if they spoke English in their home countries, sometimes the way the language is used is so vastly different that it might as well be considered its own language (for an example, try watching the movie Shottaz without subtitles). They usually end up in a community of people who share their culture, and thus their language, but at one point or another, they have to learn at least some English. And that means using what little they know. That's why the Indian who owns the corner store has such a distinct accent. The Chinese family that owns the grocery. They had very little input before they started using the language, so even though over the years they've gained a passable understanding of it, they still suck at speaking it.

Compare that to the people born in America. All we have is input, input, input, and then we start talking, and we sound like natives. Even past that, look at the school system. Some kids are great at English. Other's dont know when they should or shouldnt use apostrophe's.

Growing up, my English skills have always been above-average compared to my peers. This is because I read lots and lots of books. I know that in that earlier sentence, "don't" should have an apostrophe because that's just how I've seen it in works I've read.

That is why I advocate a silent period. Purely anecdotal evidence. You ask a person if they read, and they look at you funny. Then you ask them to write you a note, and it's lousy with grammatical and spelling errors. If, in fact, they do read, then the note will have significantly fewer errors. That's just the way of things.

AlexandreC Wrote:Speaking a language fluently requires a huge amount of mental planning and training. Words do not suddenly line up perfectly, in a flash, even if you've read or heard similar words many times. You have to line them up slowly first, and do it so often that the process eventually speeds up to the point where, if you've worked and practiced hard enough, they will line up more or less effortlessly without significant pauses or hesitations.

Pronunciation too is a series of precise and subtle muscle movements in very quick succession and that too requires a huge amount of planning and practice. And this is NOT a simple process, and it's NOT a quick process, and it's NOT an automatic one either. You can't just skip it and hope that it all poofs itself into place.

In order to speak better, to pronounce better, to become more fluent, you need to speak MORE and you need to practice MORE, as early as possible -- not avoid the task entirely.

I'm tempted to find the article about the man who spent the first 25+ years of his life as a mute, and became a fluent speaker the moment he underwent a surgery that gave him the ability to move his vocal cords, but I'm not that obsessed with attempting to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. We both have our opinions. I stand by my reasoning.

Side note: When you call people's ideas "crap," don't be surprised when they snap at you. Just saying.

Gingerninja Wrote:There is no right way surely? people learn in different ways.. so trying a bit of everything until you figure out your own way is best.

That is the right way. This thread merely details what I came up with after trying a bit of everything. I finally became arrogant enough to share it once I realized just how much time I spent trying different methods.

kainzero Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:I'll worry about what dialect I speak after I can speak.

The point was that Kansai-ben has a lot less carry over to the rest of the language... Unless of course, you live in Kansai and need it to communicate, or if you like watching those TV shows.
Whenever I feel like making a Japanese friend laugh I just randomly speak in Kansai-ben, lol.

If the difference between Kansai-ben and standard Japanese is anything like the difference between Jamaican patois and American English, then there is no issue. I moved to Jamaica as a child, and was informally taught how to speak like a Jamaican by my new peers. The transition was quick and painless.

kainzero Wrote:

vgambit Wrote:I actually think it's important to minimize the amount of dictionary referencing done as much as possible. This is why manga can be so effective; it has less words, but just as much story as a novel thanks to situations being illustrated rather than described.

I think there is a lot of value in doing things where you should know 99% of what's being said/written. The problem I'm finding with TV/Manga/Japanese subtitles is that even though you still know what's going on, it doesn't mean you can readily identify what's being said and learn language from context.
I've watched a lot of dramas with JP subs or no subs, and I feel like there's a fair bit of time where I'm tuning out what's being said and just focusing on either what's being written or what's going in the scene. Great for entertainment (which is necessary), but not as effective for learning.

To each his own, then. I say it's better to not get much out of it academically but enjoy the experience than to learn a lot but be bored to death by media that is intended to entertain.

kainzero Wrote:As for speaking...
I know a few people who've lived in LA for a long time and have bad English accents. It's not as simple as "listen to other people and you'll have a perfect accent." Accents have to be trained exclusively to be eliminated, and personally I have no problem with having an accent at this stage of my learning as long as I can be understood. What will a bad accent get you? "You're not native Japanese"? And like Gingerninja said, people will unconsciously correct you if it sounds broken and unnatural, and you will unconsciously pick it up and adjust. It's great.

The thing is, I don't need to be understood. I don't live in an Asian neighborhood, or in Japan. And I don't necessarily want to make myself part of a real or virtual Japanese community in order to facilitate my language learning.

I also don't want a bad accent, either. I want to sound like a native, and as far as I know, the best way to do that is to just listen.

This is a description of steps and resources but no method. What is your method exactly? How did you learn, what was working for you that you kept doing all the way, what didn't? Did you build on existing material, e.g. flash-cards, going Kana - RTK - supplement the deck with readings - vocabulary - sentences? Or did you use random material that seemed right for you? Why did certain methods work for you while others didn't? How were you structuring your daily life around learning? How much time have you spent? What have you done differently to all the rest of us that makes your method unique and worth to follow? How did you learn with textbooks? Tell me more about your textbooks, how were you learning with them, how were you doing the exercises, and what else did you do with them?

The reason I ask is, that anybody can come up with the idea to play games, work with some textbooks, use Anki etc. The interesting part is how people work with certain materials, software, ... and what makes those methods stand out. When someone on here is writing about their methods, they usually describe exactly what they were doing, and how it helped them getting their skills to an advanced levels. From reading what they did, what and how it worked, how and in what way they were profiting from it, another learner can decide to borrow and assmilate them.

This is the reason why I ask so many questions about your method, and I hope you will answer them.

vgambit Wrote:

AlexandreC Wrote:Pronunciation too is a series of precise and subtle muscle movements in very quick succession and that too requires a huge amount of planning and practice. And this is NOT a simple process, and it's NOT a quick process, and it's NOT an automatic one either. You can't just skip it and hope that it all poofs itself into place.

In order to speak better, to pronounce better, to become more fluent, you need to speak MORE and you need to practice MORE, as early as possible -- not avoid the task entirely.

I'm tempted to find the article about the man who spent the first 25+ years of his life as a mute, and became a fluent speaker the moment he underwent a surgery that gave him the ability to move his vocal cords, but I'm not that obsessed with attempting to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. We both have our opinions. I stand by my reasoning.

Both of you are right. It sometimes is better to simply learn words or sentences and don't say a word. But there are times when you should play parrot and mimic a word or sentence, in order to improve your pronunciation.

I do it like this. When I was working for some time with Kanji in Context, there was no audio for the words or sentences. I didn't know how to pronounce the words so I kept quiet, read the words and sentences, and checked the correctness of my answers. KO 2001 and other materials have audio. I hear how words are pronounced, and I read the sentences and words out loud, and than check if I got it correct. This way I can be sure not to develop my own, unnatural sounding pronunciation of words, that no Japanese would ever be able to unterstand.

When I read books, in languages that I know, I tend to move my lips and voice the words in my head. I don't do this with Japanese, at least not yet. I know that it will happen, and I am looking forward to it.

As for the 'silent period' debate, my opinion is that it is way better to start talking right away. I'm on my fourth year of JET, so I've seen maybe 60 people come and go among the high school teachers in Kyoto. The people who get really good at Japanese in a short amount of time are the people who talk a lot, right from the get-go. In fact, of the people who hadn't studied Japanese before they came, the only people who get any good are the people who talk a lot. So mostly only the people with outgoing personalities get any good. (Of course, people who were already studying are a different story because they're generally quite committed to learning it).

vgambit Wrote:I'm from New York City. Most of the people who live there come from other countries, making English their second language. Even if they spoke English in their home countries, sometimes the way the language is used is so vastly different that it might as well be considered its own language (for an example, try watching the movie Shottaz without subtitles). They usually end up in a community of people who share their culture, and thus their language, but at one point or another, they have to learn at least some English. And that means using what little they know. That's why the Indian who owns the corner store has such a distinct accent. The Chinese family that owns the grocery. They had very little input before they started using the language, so even though over the years they've gained a passable understanding of it, they still suck at speaking it.

Compare that to the people born in America. All we have is input, input, input, and then we start talking, and we sound like natives. Even past that, look at the school system. Some kids are great at English. Other's dont know when they should or shouldnt use apostrophe's.

I have plenty of friends who grew up in America yet have a racial accent. Some are even unaware that they have an accent. They don't sound "native." Input really has nothing to do with your accent.

(Also, Indians have a distinct accent because they speak English in India. It may be difficult for them to comprehend non-Indian English. My coworker speaks American-accented English, and defaults to Indian-accented English when speaking to her family because otherwise they won't understand her. It has nothing to do with their amount of input or with how much English they know when they started speaking.)

Developing a proper accent requires a lot of training and an acute attention to detail. I still don't know the difference over when to use a nasal が and a non-nasal が。 Hell, I didn't even know it existed until someone brought it up on this board. Unless I'm training specifically to differentiate between 橋、箸、and 端、(and even in different dialects they have different pitches!) it'll be difficult to develop the "native" accent. Even worse if your input varies between standard and Kansai-ben and you are unaware of the differences.

vgambit Wrote:The thing is, I don't need to be understood. I don't live in an Asian neighborhood, or in Japan. And I don't necessarily want to make myself part of a real or virtual Japanese community in order to facilitate my language learning.

Why even bother learning how to speak Japanese then, if you can be understood for anything you will ever do?

How will you know what a native speaker would say if you don't do things a native speaker would do? There are many times in language when you won't know what you need until you need it, which is why output practice is necessary so that you can find those situations.

In any hobby you will ever do, no amount of practice will prepare you for the real thing until you actually do it, and you need this real life experience to improve your practice and practice methods. The same goes for language output.

kainzero Wrote:I have plenty of friends who grew up in America yet have a racial accent. Some are even unaware that they have an accent. They don't sound "native." Input really has nothing to do with your accent.

Sounds like you need to rethink your idea of a 'native' accent

kainzero Wrote:I have plenty of friends who grew up in America yet have a racial accent. Some are even unaware that they have an accent. They don't sound "native." Input really has nothing to do with your accent.

I was born and raised in Wisconsin. Yesterday I was told I had somewhat of a Southern accent. lolwut?

As for input hypothesis, I don't buy into it as the silver bullet that the internet has exaggerated it into.

As for the silent period, I see it as more of an almost unavoidable phenomenon rather than something to put conscious effort into. Speaking is good, as long as it's not incomprehensible babble.

As for the thread itself, I think it came off as being too authoritative, as there's no context to imply that this is the right method ... "for vgambit." Quite the opposite, actually... Quote: "There. That's the best method, objectively. No gimmicks, no promises, no charge." -Objectively- I don't think that word means what you think it means.

An accent is something you'll pick up just hanging around people with that accent once your good enough that your not actively "studying" and are just doing it. People change how they speak to match those around them to fit it, its an unconscious social thing. The problem with trying to train an accent is that it feels weird because you know that you're doing it.
I get laughed at by some of my japanese friends because occasionaly I'll say something in kansai-ben, as i just spent a year living there, and I learnt stuff from my friends and never thought to look stuff up in a dictionary to check what was correct. Shit i got laughed at for saying　マクど　when apparently everyone else says マック.

kainzero Wrote:Developing a proper accent requires a lot of training and an acute attention to detail. I still don't know the difference over when to use a nasal が and a non-nasal が。 Hell, I didn't even know it existed until someone brought it up on this board. Unless I'm training specifically to differentiate between 橋、箸、and 端、(and even in different dialects they have different pitches!) it'll be difficult to develop the "native" accent. Even worse if your input varies between standard and Kansai-ben and you are unaware of the differences.

Pitch accent starts to take care of itself once your level gets high enough. I didn't even know such a thing existed when I first started learning Japanese. And even when I did become aware of it, for the longest time I could barely tell the difference in pitch even when people would say the different words one after the other, let alone recognise it random speech or produce it correctly. But now I can recognise and imitate it easily, and self correct my own mistakes. This is only possible because I have had bucket loads of input. Now I'm finding the same thing with regards to chinese tones. Trying to get the tones right from the start is just frustrating. But the more I listen the better I'm able to recognise them and reproduce them accurately. The only way to imitate any accent is to have heard it enough to actually recognise all the subtleties and then be able to recognise and self correct your errors, it doesn't require any special training. Also I agree with the previous poster.

JimmySeal Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:

kainzero Wrote:As for burnout, Thora linked to a book called Willpower with an interesting thesis behind it according to the description on Amazon. I haven't read it yet, although it's sitting in my Kindle waiting to be read after I finish the book Brain Rules which was recommended by nest0r on the RTK wiki.

There isn't a Kindle version is there?

??? kainzero said it's been sitting on his Kindle, and if you clicked his link, you'd see that there's a Kindle version.

:confused:

I saw what he said, that's why I was confused. Kindle store links have "ebook" after the title, but that link just takes me to a book with format options Hardcover and Audio. If I search the Kindle store for the title or the author it doesn't come up in either the US or UK store. Am I missing something here?

Javizy Wrote:I saw what he said, that's why I was confused. Kindle store links have "ebook" after the title, but that link just takes me to a book with format options Hardcover and Audio. If I search the Kindle store for the title or the author it doesn't come up in either the US or UK store. Am I missing something here?

Maybe the options Amazon shows you are different — I don't know if they do geolocalization but many other sites do, so it can be it. This is the Kindle version:

Javizy Wrote:I saw what he said, that's why I was confused. Kindle store links have "ebook" after the title, but that link just takes me to a book with format options Hardcover and Audio. If I search the Kindle store for the title or the author it doesn't come up in either the US or UK store. Am I missing something here?

Does this work?

kainzero Wrote:As for burnout, Thora linked to a book called Willpower with an interesting thesis behind it according to the description on Amazon. I haven't read it yet, although it's sitting in my Kindle waiting to be read after I finish the book Brain Rules which was recommended by nest0r on the RTK wiki.

Thanks for mentioning this book btw! I got the audiobook free with signing up for audible. It's really interesting so far. I definitely think willpower has a lot to do with learning a language, especially doing the stuff you don't enjoy (usually the stuff you find more difficult and really should be doing). I've been putting off writing a lang-8 entry for about a week, because watching a drama or doing anki is easier :$ guess I should go write it now...........

JimmySeal Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:I saw what he said, that's why I was confused. Kindle store links have "ebook" after the title, but that link just takes me to a book with format options Hardcover and Audio. If I search the Kindle store for the title or the author it doesn't come up in either the US or UK store. Am I missing something here?

Does this work?

Yeah, but it says 'This title is not available for customers from:
United Kingdom.' Even the hardcover is 'currently unavailable' on the UK store. I think it only just came out, so it'll probably become available soon. Seems strange to restrict it, though. I've got about 15 books to read, so I don't mind waiting.

Yep that's funny. Apparently it's available in Japan and Brazil, but not the UK. Weird.

Tzadeck Wrote:As for the 'silent period' debate, my opinion is that it is way better to start talking right away. I'm on my fourth year of JET, so I've seen maybe 60 people come and go among the high school teachers in Kyoto. The people who get really good at Japanese in a short amount of time are the people who talk a lot, right from the get-go. In fact, of the people who hadn't studied Japanese before they came, the only people who get any good are the people who talk a lot. So mostly only the people with outgoing personalities get any good.

This is has also been my experience all around.

Vgambit is also telling us is that if you speak early, you will get a bad accent. Now those people who started talking right from the get-go, can you tell us if their accent was worse because of it?