Hi all. im using a program called memosyne to review kanji and compunds.

im just thinking... when review vocabulary in this way, is it better to review the word from English to japanese or from japanese to english.

eg. English to Japanese
Q: wireless, radio
(flip card)
A: 無線機

or

eg. Japanese to English
Q: 無線機
A: wireless, radio

im inclined to the first method.

Both? Also, you can use pictures instead of English for nouns. I also like to go from the kana to the kanji. I've just got into supermemo like Immacolata and it's really tricky to figure out but it's got an excellent reviewing system. The interface is very ugly though.

PS. I just went to check out the program you're using and just for anyone else who might want to do the same, it's spelt mnemosyne. A rogue n lurking in there. Interesting program, very clean and simple. I like the way it schedules review dates depending on how well you knew or how badly you didn't know the answer. You can't do much when making flashcards though, it's just two sides with text only.

Perhaps the best thing is that they're getting users to upload the statistics of their reviewing and presumably they're using that data to enhance the scheduling algorithm.

Mnemosyne is a freeware/open sauce spin-off from SuperMemo, commercial software. Its probably using the best review algorithm you can get, but as I paid for SM2004 and am far down the path, Ill not go back now. But I recommend trying mnemosyne project if you want to start making reviews of more than just RTK.

As for how to review vocab

You must go from japanese to english. You want to learn japanese, so start thinking in japanese and review in japanese.

I often copy in an example sentence with my answers so I can see the word in use. I find most on JDICS example search, even if I have been warned about their artificial nature.

don't go from english to japanese.

In order to get a japanese word as an answer without using an English word as the prompt or question side of a card, there are various techniques you can use.

I already mentioned that you can use a picture as the question and then have the Japanese word as the answer. So get a picture of a wireless radio, use that as the prompt and the answer is 無線機.

For words that can't be represented by pictures, like verbs, you can use example sentences with gaps in them. You can use several sentences at once, each with a gap that is missing the same word. In the case of verbs, this would also test your ability to put them in the correct form.

You can also use definitions from a Japanese-Japanese dictionary (広辞苑). This might be more suited to intermediate learners and above but using these will get you closer to the true meaning of the word than an English translation would.

You can also use a combination of the above. So for the 'question' you could have two or three example sentences with gaps in them and a definition from the 広辞苑. The answer would of course be the word you're trying to learn.

Obviously quite a bit more effort but I cannot stress the value of wiping English from your mind when you're speaking Japanese.

thanks for the replies.

i truly appreciate this advice. it seems that erasing English from my mind when studying is the way to go. Without seeing the vocabulary word that i am trying to learn in context, this "flashcard" review method for vocab just becomes like rote memorisation which is something that i think we are all trying to avoid. having words linked to sentances seems like it will hold up better in my head as it will have a unique, vivid picture, much like the way heising meakes us think of a picture/discreet sentance/situation to remember a kanji compound and its meaning. i am particularily impressed with the comment about taking the 広辞苑 definition of the word as a review aid.

thanks.

I think rote memorization is highly underrated. The reason to avoid it for learning kanji is that you have 2000 items with too many things to remember. Flash card reviews are necessary unless you are immersed in japanese everyday and get to excercise your language.

I'm not sure I agree with the need to wipe english (or any other native language for that matter) completely when studying vocabulary. Using pictures seems a bit contrived and time consuming, while fill-in-the-blanks are much easier to get right because of the information from the context. What I'm saying is, you want to be able to use your vocabulary productively, i.e. know which word to use when you want to say/write something in Japanese.

In the beginning I think it is inevitable to use English or your own language as a link, a stepping stone. As you get better you don't need to translate in your head anymore, you just know the Japanese word and how to use it. Of course you will make mistakes using words in the wrong way or the wrong context, but I don't think that can be avoided by another way of studying. This is something you have to learn from experience by listening, speaking, reading and writing a lot. However when it comes to forming sentences (grammar) I agree you should try to think in Japanese as much as possible, so you can just drop in the words that you need without having to throw the sentence around completely.

The japanese-japanese dictionary idea is a good idea, but as was said it's more something once you have a comfortable basis in Japanese so you can use it effectively. Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned about it, but I also think simple flash card rote memorization in combination with practice is the best way to learn vocabulary. Making mnemonics that carry every single nuance of every word is just not feasible, I think.

Yes, you do need to wipe english from your review schedule. It is not matter of opinion, really. Many words are translated as approximations, other words are translated as several words. If you stick to eng-jap review, you are stuck in travel parleur mode and stuck in a "How do I say I love you in japanese?" mode Hint: you can't)

For instance, 辛い, karai. This just isn't "spicy", since that adjective needs something to be spicy about. Like spicy food. It should translate "is spicy". Already here you are moving away from the meaning into an english approximation with a helper verb "to be". You can perhaps get away with this on nouns, like Hospital, library, car etc. But review from japanese to english is the way to go. Later, if you want to skill up in being able to translate, perhaps going english to japanese is a good idea. But for starters, you want to break out of english, and you do that by learning the japanese words as their own words, not just translations of english ones. Because they aren't.

I also did this in the beginning, but it just doesn't work. I meet a word, then I think "uh, which ballgame is this? Or ballpark? fx. Extreme. Was it すごい　I meant? or was it かげき? Or いとも? I had to swap all those flash cards again from back to jap-eng.

I think perhaps you got the idea from heisigs Keyword to kanji. But it doesn't apply here. Avoid it.

Make sentences if you want to, perhaps it will reinforce the words meaning for you faster, but do japanese sentences, then give the translation in your answer.

Piitaa Wrote:Using pictures seems a bit contrived and time consuming, while fill-in-the-blanks are much easier to get right because of the information from the context. What I'm saying is, you want to be able to use your vocabulary productively, i.e. know which word to use when you want to say/write something in Japanese.

I think everyone will have their own techniques and you need to find what works for you. I would encourage everyone to try different methods and try and assess their effectiveness.

With the picture method, it really depends on the word. I think showing a picture of a マンション would be much better than giving it a translation into English. However, showing a happy face for うれしい or something would definitely be contrived as you said.

With the fill in the blanks method, I don't see why having the context is a bad thing. When you speak in a conversation or when you write a paragraph, the words you use are always in context. In fact, I think it's better to learn words in context like this instead of learning them on their own.

I don't think that English should be avoided like the plague but I think that it should be used carefully and sparingly if possible. Immacolata's right with how inaccurate English translations can be and I can't tell you how many times I've been foiled by what my electric dictionary has spat at me. This is just with the meaning of course. There's a whole wealth of other information such as appropriacy, level of speech, typical situations for usage etc. This information could be put into English in your flash cards or it could be put in Japanese, it's up to you and your Japanese level. It also depends on how much time you want to spend.

IMO, the problems that you are warning about are problems for more advanced speakers of Japanese. You learn the ABC's. You learn ONE meaning of a word. You don't immediately start being concerned about all the possible nuances of every single word. One step at a time IS fine.

Learning to think in the target language is desireable, but I think you cannot do it without the opportunity to immerse in it. As long as I live and work in my small town in the USA, thinking in Japanese not likely to happen. That's really OK! I'm not ready for that step yet anyhow! You can stress about it if you want to. Probably it's because you're ready for that focus, ready for starting that next big step.

I don't believe that you'll really get the complete feel for the language (let alone most of the words) from flash cards. You've got to be exposed to the real language in many different contexts (newspapers, magazines, poetry, song lyrics, games, plays, movies, TV, kids, literature, graphiti, radio, conversations,etc), to get all of these words used in lots of different ways, and then (if you're lucky) it'll _start_ to soak in. Because you're right. No dictionary can define a word, really. There's a whole world of connotations included in most words.

But for the beginner, a dictionary can get you started. One CAN learn from just the immersion, but it takes much longer. Using the adult mind, we can move more quickly and yet, we still have to take it in steps. You start to build a structure in your mind. It gives you a place to store the things you learn. The structure becomes more complex (and more real) as you mature in the knowledge.

Opinions are like noses. Everybody's got one. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. You may think it smells, but . . . .

Immacolata Wrote:If you stick to eng-jap review, you are stuck in travel parleur mode and stuck in a "How do I say I love you in japanese?" mode Hint: you can't)

I also did this in the beginning, but it just doesn't work. I meet a word, then I think "uh, which ballgame is this? Or ballpark? fx. Extreme. Was it すごい　I meant? or was it かげき? Or いとも? I had to swap all those flash cards again from back to jap-eng.

Aye, I get your point on how inaccurate english words are when it comes to translation to Japanese. I think you'd need more than just a single word to know which Japanese word or expression you're supposed to answer. For example, you could have the text "(adj) Terrible, amazing, to a great extent." Then you'd have enough information to identify the word as すごい and not as one of the other variants of 'extreme'. It would take much more time to build flashcards this way though. I haven't started studying vocabulary seriously yet, but I think I'd go with this way first. As Wrightak said, everyone will have their techniques that work for them though.

wrightak Wrote:With the fill in the blanks method, I don't see why having the context is a bad thing. When you speak in a conversation or when you write a paragraph, the words you use are always in context. In fact, I think it's better to learn words in context like this instead of learning them on their own.

It's true you always have a context when speaking or writing. This is a bit difficult to explain, but I was talking about the way of learning. Compare it to answering a multiple choice question versus answering an open question. The MC question is easier, because recognizing the right answer is easier than producing it from nothing. That's why I was wondering if fill-in excercises would be enough to properly 'drill' a word.

Immacolata Wrote:If you stick to eng-jap review, you are stuck in travel parleur mode and stuck in a "How do I say I love you in japanese?" mode Hint: you can't)

好きです？
大好き？
愛してる?

I get your point though. "I love you" doesn't translate directly into Japanese and you'd never hear a Japanese person say something like 私はあなたのことが好きです. But this is IMO more related to having a grasp of grammar and how the language works than to vocabulary / compounds. If you know a certain word is an i-adjective than you already know how you can apply it in a sentence, for example, grammatically at least. Nuance and actual usage are more indepth, I think these have to be built from real experience.

Methods vary, sure, but Ill stick to my opinion that review should be mostly from jap to eng. And no amount of flashcards can substitute the real language learned from speaking and reading. Which is why I added a lot of flash cards based on texts I read. Had a hard time reading it, so I entered all the iffy words in SuperMemo 2004, then reviewed them. Came back to the text some weeks later, and reading now went a lot smoother because I could focus on the grammar more than trying to figure out every odd compound.

Piitaa Wrote:It's true you always have a context when speaking or writing. This is a bit difficult to explain, but I was talking about the way of learning. Compare it to answering a multiple choice question versus answering an open question. The MC question is easier, because recognizing the right answer is easier than producing it from nothing. That's why I was wondering if fill-in excercises would be enough to properly 'drill' a word.

It's interesting that you thought about it from this angle because my concerns with the fill-in-the-blanks method come from a completely different one. I was thinking that it would be harder and not easier because there may be several words which would qualify as the gap filler. That's why I suggested having several sentences and not one and also combining it with a definition from the 広辞苑. My concern was with pinning down the word uniquely.

One point I would make, is that if you've come across a word in some situation then you should try to keep a record of the context that the word appeared in. For example, when I was walking down the street with some friends, we came across a small shop and my friend pointed out that they were selling beer for kids. Of course it was just a fizzy drink that was meant to taste a little bit like beer but I was feeling dozy and asked if it had alcohol in it. My friend looked at me and said まさか！アルコールは入っていないでしょう！ (How could you say that!/Don't be so silly! There's no alcohol in there!) I didn't know まさか at the time and I looked it up and I'll never forget the context that I heard it in. If this happens to you in conversation or when reading an article or when listening to the radio, that moment where your mind just clicks with understanding of what the person is trying to say, take that context and put it in a gap filling flash card. If not, at least make a note of it.

Note that Jim Breen's translation of まさか doesn't include the aspect of meaning that I encountered in the above example.

If you keep your flash cards organised then you can come back to them later and add more meanings and example sentences that you encounter. People are saying that nuance and additional meanings aren't necessary for beginners, which is true, but when you do get around to learning these features, add them to the flash card you used before, don't make a new one. For this reason, build your flash cards in a format that will allow you to add to them in the future.

wrightak Wrote:One point I would make, is that if you've come across a word in some situation then you should try to keep a record of the context that the word appeared in. For example, when I was walking down the street with some friends, we came across a small shop and my friend pointed out that they were selling beer for kids. Of course it was just a fizzy drink that was meant to taste a little bit like beer but I was feeling dozy and asked if it had alcohol in it. My friend looked at me and said まさか！アルコールは入っていないでしょう！ (How could you say that!/Don't be so silly! There's no alcohol in there!) I didn't know まさか at the time and I looked it up and I'll never forget the context that I heard it in. If this happens to you in conversation or when reading an article or when listening to the radio, that moment where your mind just clicks with understanding of what the person is trying to say, take that context and put it in a gap filling flash card. If not, at least make a note of it.

i completely agree with this point. you will never forget the situation in which a word just "clicks" in your head like that. it happens to me all the time living in Japan. its great when a small child makes me learn something.

When i was in University i had a lecture about learning and the lecturer said basically: the more senses that are involved when learning something, the better your will remember it. probably because there are more "emotional" ties to that moment. be it smell, taste, sight etc...

Immacolata Wrote:don't go from english to japanese.

I probably need a good spankin'
I study vocabulary both directions. I have the following sets of flashcards:
(a) Q: English; A: Kanji & Kana - this one is used for speaking only
(b) Q: English; A: Kanji & Kana - this one is used for writing only
© Q: Kanji; A: Kana & English - this is for reading and listening
I split (a) & (b) up because I wanted to learn how to write, and needed separate statistics. I used to just read the Japanese words in ©, but I found that forcing myself to say the English meaning was necessary because I was occasionally forgetting it. Also, I use supermemo.