I was reading a review on amazon for a book about learning Korean and in it I happened to find something I knew all along. The whole "日本語上手ですね" is really just to say... Nice try. Anyways read the review it's quite candid and I found it a refreshing read to hear the real 本音 about xx語上手ですね. Just thought I'd post this for a laugh.

一応初級段階を修了後，何とか通じる韓国語を身に付けた方たちが対象です。
さて，貴方の身近に，上手なんだけど違和感のある日本語を話す外国人はいませんか？　そしてその人たちに貴方は「日本語がお上手ですね」とか言ってませんか？　また，貴方が韓国に行っった時に韓国語を話すと，韓国の人たちから決まって“ハングンマルチャラシネヨ”とか言われませんか？
本当に違和感なく外国語を操っている人に，「○○語お上手ですね」と言う人はいないと思います。ですから「○○語お上手ですね」と言われているうちは，まだまだ“日本語らしさ”や“韓国語らしさ”に欠けた表現しかできていないということになりますね。
本書は，そんな人たちに“上手な韓国語”を身に付けていただくために書かれた本で，微妙にニュアンスの違う韓国語単語や使える表現と使えない表現を○×で示してあったりと，興味を持って使えるように工夫してあります。
勿論，各単語を使った例文も豊富です。
なかなか骨のある内容ですが，どのページからでも同じように始められますので，より興味のあるところから始めてみてください。

from http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/48773...WP5D8G4FEQ

It doesn't necessarily mean that... it's not impossible that they're saying what they actually think.

Haha, no it's actually true.

I noticed if they're actually praising you they say うまい and not 上手.

mezbup Wrote:Haha, no it's actually true.

I noticed if they're actually praising you they say うまい and not 上手.

i noticed that too

Why? Are they all machines?

This is not unique to the Japanese, Koreans, or any other nationality. I had this with the Kiwis, with the Candians, the Egyptians ... the only difference is the language they are complementing you, telling you how "good" you are. You can take it as complement, as encouragement, or in the negative sense: "YOU SUCK, but I appreciate that you gave it a try, but remember, you SUCK." I guess this is a natural reaction when someones suddenly starting to speak in your own language.

I personally see it as a compliment, and learned to use it to my advantage. At one point I simply started returning the compliment, your xxx is good as well! It is the perfect way to break the ice. ;-)

LOL, that reminded me of this blog post:

Quote:
Evaluate your Japanese...
１．日本語はとても上手ですね。- Your Japanese sucks... really bad. I would tell you to stick with English but I don't need to because you don't speak any Japanese.

２．日本語は上手です。 - Your Japanese sucks but at least you've made an attempt at learning it instead of ignorantly blurting out "konnichiwa" like Michael Douglas.

３．日本語はうまいですね。- There are lots of things you don't understand but you can hold a regular conversation and get by.

４．日本語はうまい！ - You've exceeded the level that foreigners are normally not expected to achieve. Though your pronunciation is not perfect, you know Japanese well enough to take Japanese people by surprise. Oh my god, you mean foreigners can actually master this language???

５．日本語は普通です。 - Congratulations! You've finally reached the level where the double standard no longer applies. You are near-native level and it may take a while for Japanese people to realize that Japanese is not your native language. With all your hard work you have managed to go from "very good" to just "normal".

Yeah, people do the same in English. I don't do it, but some of my friends say "Wow, your English is better than mine!" and "Your accent is incredible" and other similar compliments to people who aren't particularly great at English. Really it's just people trying to say something nice + to be encouraging, be it in English or Japanese or whatever.

This often is true -- the major exception is that when you first meet someone or start talking to them it's common for them to say it just as a polite opening.

this japanese lady on sharedtalk said she hates all the japanese learners in vancouver because they say they want to learn and don't do anything, and said "see at least you learned to write, all they want to do is get with japanese women." she said it in english through email in our second correspondence.

all of a sudden, "上手ですね" doesn't seem so bad now.

kainzero Wrote:this japanese lady on sharedtalk said she hates all the japanese learners in vancouver because they say they want to learn and don't do anything, and said "see at least you learned to write, all they want to do is get with japanese women." she said it in english through email in our second correspondence.

all of a sudden, "上手ですね" doesn't seem so bad now.

that's sad but true. Heck when I think about it, the ratio for serious/successful learners are 1:10. It's sad but I know someone who purses that route, even though he's been learning longer than me (4-5 years). I'm more skilled at jp then he is (guess it really shows the difference in what people actually want)

Bokusenou Wrote:LOL, that reminded me of this blog post:

Quote:
Evaluate your Japanese...
１．日本語はとても上手ですね。- Your Japanese sucks... really bad. I would tell you to stick with English but I don't need to because you don't speak any Japanese.

２．日本語は上手です。 - Your Japanese sucks but at least you've made an attempt at learning it instead of ignorantly blurting out "konnichiwa" like Michael Douglas.

３．日本語はうまいですね。- There are lots of things you don't understand but you can hold a regular conversation and get by.

４．日本語はうまい！ - You've exceeded the level that foreigners are normally not expected to achieve. Though your pronunciation is not perfect, you know Japanese well enough to take Japanese people by surprise. Oh my god, you mean foreigners can actually master this language???

５．日本語は普通です。 - Congratulations! You've finally reached the level where the double standard no longer applies. You are near-native level and it may take a while for Japanese people to realize that Japanese is not your native language. With all your hard work you have managed to go from "very good" to just "normal".

LOL i remember this post.

Bokusenou Wrote:LOL, that reminded me of this blog post:

Quote:
Evaluate your Japanese...
１．日本語はとても上手ですね。- Your Japanese sucks... really bad. I would tell you to stick with English but I don't need to because you don't speak any Japanese.

２．日本語は上手です。 - Your Japanese sucks but at least you've made an attempt at learning it instead of ignorantly blurting out "konnichiwa" like Michael Douglas.

３．日本語はうまいですね。- There are lots of things you don't understand but you can hold a regular conversation and get by.

４．日本語はうまい！ - You've exceeded the level that foreigners are normally not expected to achieve. Though your pronunciation is not perfect, you know Japanese well enough to take Japanese people by surprise. Oh my god, you mean foreigners can actually master this language???

５．日本語は普通です。 - Congratulations! You've finally reached the level where the double standard no longer applies. You are near-native level and it may take a while for Japanese people to realize that Japanese is not your native language. With all your hard work you have managed to go from "very good" to just "normal".

Hmm, 4-4.5 perhaps? I definitely wouldn't consider myself near native-level but I've had people say they forget they're talking to a foreigner on IM. But IM is easy I suppose.

I take the fact that I'm not yet confident enough in my ability to go and get a job there as proof that I still suck though.

Whenever I hear someone say to someone oh your English is very good I'm almost always this close to saying... No it's not, you have a very long way to go. Haha. I don't but that's the truth. I guess its meant as encouragement (at least in English).

I never say it to ppl cos it feels fake to me. Theres so many foreigners here that speak perfect / good enough english that when a leaner comes along it's more like "catch up!"

If ur Asian and u can actually speak Japanese to a native-ish level ppl just won't say anything to you. Thats the biggest compliment. If ur white/obviously not Japanese then no matter what ur always gonna get something. Often it's a あ、日本語喋れるんだ。

I think Japanese have the part of the brain that relates to foreigners missing. At the moment a friend is visiting from Japan, now he was born and raised there but both parents are Korean. For all intents and purposes he's Japanese, only his heritage is Korean. Anyway over the last week I've watched in amazement as Japanese ppl tell him "日本語うまいね" even after I tell them "he was born and raised in Japan, has lived there his whole life" - "でも、うまいね！". *face palm*. I kinda told one of my friends off for saying it and was he's lived there his WHOLE life - "お前と一緒だろ？"

日本人、マジこのこと分かっといて！

Guys, don't overanalyze stuff. While 「日本語が上手」doesn't necessarily mean your Japanese is truly good it doesn't have any hidden meaning that's your Japanese is bad either. People don't make these comments after putting minutes of thought into which expression to use. It's just something that comes out automatically (like so many things in Japanese) when you meet a non-native speaker.

i think this webcomic is relevant:

http://xkcd.com/945/

Bokusenou Wrote:LOL, that reminded me of this blog post:

Quote:
Evaluate your Japanese...
１．日本語はとても上手ですね。- Your Japanese sucks... really bad. I would tell you to stick with English but I don't need to because you don't speak any Japanese.

２．日本語は上手です。 - Your Japanese sucks but at least you've made an attempt at learning it instead of ignorantly blurting out "konnichiwa" like Michael Douglas.

３．日本語はうまいですね。- There are lots of things you don't understand but you can hold a regular conversation and get by.

４．日本語はうまい！ - You've exceeded the level that foreigners are normally not expected to achieve. Though your pronunciation is not perfect, you know Japanese well enough to take Japanese people by surprise. Oh my god, you mean foreigners can actually master this language???

５．日本語は普通です。 - Congratulations! You've finally reached the level where the double standard no longer applies. You are near-native level and it may take a while for Japanese people to realize that Japanese is not your native language. With all your hard work you have managed to go from "very good" to just "normal".

Wow. This is really weird but the other day I was talking to a japanese guy though skype and he told me　「日本語普通しゃべるんですね。」 or something like that.

Two days ago a girl I met recently e-mailed me and said,

(Tzadeck)さんの日本語は全く違和感がないですよ.

Where does that rank? Does it make it worse that I had to look up 違和感? lol

bcrAn Wrote:Why? Are they all machines?

I think you're taking it the wrong way. That's the way language works--people have a tendency to say similar or the same things in particular situations because it's established culturally. So, if people say 日本語が上手ですね in situations where someone's Japanese is not so good, it's just like any other piece of language. It's like, as is shown in the cartoon above, saying "I'm sorry" in situations where something bad happened even though it's not an apology really. It's just one of the things you say in that type of situation.

(Also, all living things are basically machines)

Ha-ha, it's true that 普通 is the word to describe a native proficiency where we don't even feel we're talking to a nonnative speaker. I know some nonnative speakers who mastered Japanese to the extent that they exactly sound like people from Ibaraki. But if I say 上手ですね, うまいですね or something along those lines to them, it may sound like the very bad kind of insult. We don't talk about their Japanese skill levels unless it's necessary, so it's also true that you're really good at Japanese when no one talks about it. This Chinese guy I met in high school spoke Japanese as his dominant language. And the only time me and my friends said his Japanese is good was like "lol don't worry about your chinese, you're japanese is good enough!" when he flunked a classical Chinese test. Ah, and when he got a better grade in Japanese than us. (Note: if you don't get it, it was the kind of friendly joke which uses horrible insults, which often sounds like a terrible insult rather than good-natured banter to people from outside of Southern Osaka.)

What Tzadeck says is so true. I think I've said this a few times somewhere on this forum, but it's a kind of protocol similar to greetings. English also has many predetermined pseudo-conversations like the "I'm sorry" example. Much simpler examples like "How are you doing today?" - "I'm doing good" and "Thanks!" - "You bet" are also like that; You don't start talking about trouble you're having when you're asked if you're doing good because the "questioner" isn't asking a real question, and it doesn't matter what "you bet" or "my pleasure" literally means.

What Tzadeck didn't explicitly mention but I think is very important is that the 上手 comment also has fixed responses. In general, whether it's about language or your driving skill or any skill for that matter, if someone says you're good as a conversation starter or the like, you're supposed to respond with いやいやそんなことないですよ, いえいえまだまだです, or some other pretty much fixed phrase just like you always say "Can't complain" or something similar as a response to "What is it going?" The same goes for when someone "flatters" you, which is something people generally do in Japanese culture and isn't considered wrong just like it's not wrong to say "nice to meet you" if before you meet that person your friend said he was an leprechaun. Just say one of the pre-made responses without thinking its meaning too much. It's like "why" doesn't mean anything when you respond with "Why, thank you" to a positive comment about you. You aren't literally wondering "why" they made such a ridiculously positive comment.