Doing Kanji is mechanical, systematic, programmed. It's mathematical. I am good at that.

Doing sentences is the kind of like the opposite, more flexible, open-ended and everyone seems to develop their own philosophy at some point.

I find myself struggling through the sentences, feeling I am not completing anything or at least not in the same way I can with Kanji. With Kanji I can plan, with sentences is different.

How did you go about studying sentences when you were starting? How do you go about it now?

You don't have to do sentences. It's mostly just something that became popular because so many people thoughtlessly copy the AJATT guy.
Just learn vocabulary and read and listen a lot. And if studying vocabulary is too boring for you then just read and listen a lot.

bcrAn Wrote:Doing Kanji is mechanical, systematic, programmed. It's mathematical. I am good at that.

Doing sentences is the kind of like the opposite, more flexible, open-ended and everyone seems to develop their own philosophy at some point.

I find myself struggling through the sentences, feeling I am not completing anything or at least not in the same way I can with Kanji. With Kanji I can plan, with sentences is different.

How did you go about studying sentences when you were starting? How do you go about it now?

I did pre-made sentences and grammar. But later on I found automatic ways of adding sentences and vocabulary cards into the mix. It was initially hard at first to do sentences, because it was a huge difference from RTK1+3. But I kept at it. I made the basic type:

Question: Sentence
Answer: Reading for each kanji and contains meaning for each vocabulary word a whole translation for the sentence.

I soon branched off to monolingual sentences and a vocabulary deck.
The key is to go slow and feel how it works(experiment). It takes time but you'll find it's effective.

I think you what you need is to state clearly your objectives.

For example, if reach N4 level is your objective, then you need the N4 vocab + N4 grammar + N4 reading + N4 listening. You can use anki to achieve the vocab and grammar levels, but you will also need to use non-anki materials for the listenning and reading skills (podcasts, textooks' texts etc...)

Once your objective is set, you can evaluate your progression and "plan" like you are doing for the kanjis.

@deign Wow, that's incredible. Is there such thing as N4 listening?

Ok I realize that's a stupid question but that was certainly my first reaction. I will look into JLPT material, that may be my path.

The only sentence deck I've tried using is the Shared Deck that is most sentences from the Dictionary of ___ Japanese Grammar set of books.

I'll read the grammar point in the book. Including all the sentences.

For each grammar point, I'll select the sentences I like and unsuspend them.
(If I already understand a point very well, I don't worry about it unless a sentence is interesting to me in some other way.)

The deck is Sentence on Side 1 and Reading + Translation on Side 2.

If I can understand the sentence and the grammar I pass it.

I don't try to learn vocab from the deck (though sometimes I do) and I don't try to memorize the grammar points. I go through the cards fairly quickly without spending very much time per card or worrying much about the specific details of the grammar rules.

My goal is to get some repeated, light exposure to some grammar, so that when I encounter it elsewhere, I'll at *least* be able to say "yea, i've seen that before", rather than it being a meaningless jumble of hiragana.

Speaking of Dictionary of Japanese Grammar, does anyone know if the PlaySay audio for Dictionary of Basic and D. of Intermediate Japanese Grammar contains audio for the *Sentences* or just the words?

I mention this because there is a 75% off discount for the PlaySay audio via TheJapanShop's SuperSuiyoubi special. But if it's not the entire sentences, I'm not really interested in individual vocab recordings, and the PlaySay site is worthless and doesn't tell you what the product actually contains or provide samples.

At the moment, I'm experimenting with taking sentences from a drama that I'm repeatedly watching for comprehension practice. (ヤンキーくんとメガネちゃん as it happens, but I may do the same with 美男ですね). I'm putting cards in to go from English to Japanese, so, it really has to be a work I'm familiar with. I have a 'hints' field in addition to the question and answer, because Japanese is so context-sensitive... I have hints like 'coarse male speech, dropped particles' or 'very formal' or what have you.

I really prefer quizzing only english->japanese anymore because quizzing japanese->english sets up that running translation in my head so that there's an English echo after reading or hearing each word that gives me a fine translation on one word or phrase but slows me down too much for rapid comprehension.

I don't know that that's a good idea when starting though... it's quite nearly impossible with long sentences, so you have to be selective, of course. With too long of a sentence or insufficient context hints you can easily produce a sentence with the same meaning that is nothing like the original sentence (and then you're stuck not knowing if it's correct or not anyway).


Also, I don't quiz -only- on sentences... if a sentence has more than one previously unknown vocabulary word in it, then I definitely add individual words as well. Sometimes even if there is only one previously unknown word. Sentence study is great, but sentence study to the exclusion of pure vocabulary study strikes me as an exercise in frustration.

You may find it much better to keep your sentence and vocabulary decks separate - unless you take great pains, the natural way to enter them is going to make the vocabulary cards and the sentences that contain them show up back to back, and then you've got too much of a hint to know which button to press after doing the second card. (They'll scatter eventually... maybe... but it still basically wastes time the first few reps.)

Anyway, my experiment may be slightly crazy but I'm liking the results on my comprehension so far. We'll see how I feel when I see cards in the mature spacing, it could be quite different when it's 30 days between seeing the same sentence!

@SomeCallMeChris So where do you copy the Japanese and English from? Subtitle files? How do you know they are correct?


By the way, what JLPT level should I begin with? I finished RTK and being doing sentences for a while but I don't think that's working too well.

Yes, from subtitle files... and mostly the English ones have many cases that are not correct, and I have to catch the mistakes and investigate the grammar and dictionary entries on my own with any suspicious lines.

However, fan-subbers tend to translate overly literally anyway, and I'll take their handful of mistakes per episode over the loose translations of professionals any day, when it comes to learning material.

Ultimately, you'll find you can't rely on anyone else's translation anyway when it comes to whole works. An individual fluent in both languages might explain a sentence here or there completely clearly, but not an entire work. This does create a catch-22 when first learning, you have to take translations on faith while not being able to entirely trust them.




You should start with JLPT level N5 at least as far as studies are concerned, because the levels are cumulative, N4 requires knowledge of everything in N5, etc. (You can skip taking the -test- for N5, perhaps, although this is the registration month, so if you take a test this year, probably N5 or N4 depending on how ambitious you feel; by next December if you keep studying you'll likely be ready for N3; N2 only if you really pull out all the stops.)

SRS single vocab cards for vocab and colloquial phrases and sentences cards for grammar. That's how I'm going.

Well I have this nice book with Japanese and English sentences from ALC. Specially made for Japanese learning English but the Japanese sentences seem fun and I really want to study them. There is a problem though, the Japanese sentences have no furigana on them. Does not Anki have a reading generation feature? Kakasi? I am just pulling out keywords from forgotten memories, I really don't know.

tokyostyle Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:You don't have to do sentences. It's mostly just something that became popular because so many people thoughtlessly copy the AJATT guy.

... and he doesn't even do sentences anymore.

Isn't he using the so-called "MCD" (Massive-Context Cloze Deletion) now? To me, that's just a fancy name for sentences with clozes.

so, the PlaySay dictionary of Japanese grammar set does not include audio but...it does include the sentences.

it seems worthwhile for the price, especially if it's 75% off right now

jhenson Wrote:The only sentence deck I've tried using is the Shared Deck that is most sentences from the Dictionary of ___ Japanese Grammar set of books.

I'll read the grammar point in the book. Including all the sentences.

For each grammar point, I'll select the sentences I like and unsuspend them.
(If I already understand a point very well, I don't worry about it unless a sentence is interesting to me in some other way.)

The deck is Sentence on Side 1 and Reading + Translation on Side 2.

If I can understand the sentence and the grammar I pass it.

I don't try to learn vocab from the deck (though sometimes I do) and I don't try to memorize the grammar points. I go through the cards fairly quickly without spending very much time per card or worrying much about the specific details of the grammar rules.

My goal is to get some repeated, light exposure to some grammar, so that when I encounter it elsewhere, I'll at *least* be able to say "yea, i've seen that before", rather than it being a meaningless jumble of hiragana.

Speaking of Dictionary of Japanese Grammar, does anyone know if the PlaySay audio for Dictionary of Basic and D. of Intermediate Japanese Grammar contains audio for the *Sentences* or just the words?

I mention this because there is a 75% off discount for the PlaySay audio via TheJapanShop's SuperSuiyoubi special. But if it's not the entire sentences, I'm not really interested in individual vocab recordings, and the PlaySay site is worthless and doesn't tell you what the product actually contains or provide samples.

I've been doing the core 2000 vocab deck on anki. I only mark the cards as good if I can read or write the whole sentence. I've only been doing it for a couple of weeks but it's quite enjoyable seeing all this kanji from RTK coming together to form real Japanese.

On the downside I've pretty much stopped reviewing RTK and am seeing my due cards box get bigger and bigger.

nadiatims Wrote:You don't have to do sentences. It's mostly just something that became popular because so many people thoughtlessly copy the AJATT guy.
Just learn vocabulary and read and listen a lot. And if studying vocabulary is too boring for you then just read and listen a lot.

Well, with me it's so disappointing because although I know about~6000 words, I still lack in comprehension. I read a lot and add every word I encounter and do not know with rikaisama.. Progress is so slow, tormenting and needs a LOT of motivation not to cancel/abort everything. It's a pity to know that my comprehension is as big as the one of a Japanese kid T__T

Tori-kun Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:You don't have to do sentences. It's mostly just something that became popular because so many people thoughtlessly copy the AJATT guy.
Just learn vocabulary and read and listen a lot. And if studying vocabulary is too boring for you then just read and listen a lot.

Well, with me it's so disappointing because although I know about~6000 words, I still lack in comprehension. I read a lot and add every word I encounter and do not know with rikaisama.. Progress is so slow, tormenting and needs a LOT of motivation not to cancel/abort everything. It's a pity to know that my comprehension is as big as the one of a Japanese kid T__T

I've learned that the only way to get good at listening is to keep listening. Yea it probably sounds like you should just dive in but that doesn't always work with everyone. I just dived in and pretty much completely drowned before I survived to climb out in complete victory. I associate vocab/sentences with audio and it made my life easier and I started with stuff I knew and stuff I didn't have a clue. It's strange but I only got better at listening when I jumped into the middle and almost died(not literally of course). But it's thanks to this that I know it's all about going into unknown territory. That's how people go from zero listening to good listening and all other skills(reading,speaking,writing).

But one thing I knew I did differently from most people is, I kept at it daily and never stopped.

sentences were slow for me, but i sped up after a few months. i used KO2001.

taking random sentences from multiple sources was difficult for me because some words were so rare that i wouldn't know when and when not to use them, and it was hard for them to stick because they were so rare.

at first it was just straight japanese to english cards, one japanese sentence = one english sentence.
eventually i moved on to simply defining japanese words in english, or in japanese.
many times when i review my cards i only check if i got the reading right, since i already know the instinctively know the meaning; therefore it doesn't matter if it's an english or japanese definition.
occasionally i add words if i have trouble with a word in a sentence and i keep failing it. i've also completed KO2001 and moved on to a JLPT N2 vocab book, which i finished the other day; lots of straight words > definition cards there.

i had a basic background from taking japanese class so grammar wasn't too difficult to pick up; occasionally i'd reference DBJG or Tae Kim when doing KO2001.

@SomeCallMeChris: Japanese > English doesn't necessarily mean running translation. i check for comprehension (Can I understand it?) and i reference the English side if i don't understand it. if I do, it's like there isn't any English.

@Tori-kun: have you tried reading something just really basic? or re-reading what you've done before? i feel that "comprehension"-mode is different from "vocabulary acquiring"-mode, and that they both need practice.

kainzero Wrote:at first it was just straight japanese to english cards, one japanese sentence = one english sentence.
eventually i moved on to simply defining japanese words in english, or in japanese.
many times when i review my cards i only check if i got the reading right, since i already know the instinctively know the meaning; therefore it doesn't matter if it's an english or japanese definition.
occasionally i add words if i have trouble with a word in a sentence and i keep failing it.

Very interesting! I started adding Japanese definitions for words in sentences that I haven't learned yet. The definition is on the front of my card, and if a definition contains unknown words, I add a translation for that as well. Here is an example:



I also don't pay any attention to the translation on the back of the card. When I know the correct reading for the words in a sentence, when I know what the sentence means in general, I pass the card. But I find it hard to pass a card when I don't get the whole sentence right ... Or because I forgot the English translation of some words. And more often than not I rate cards hard or fail them. But eventually I will be able to convince myself that due to the number of words ahead of me, there is no need to try to get everything correct all the time.

I am far away from being anywhere near fluent, but I will get there.

Tori-kun Wrote:Well, with me it's so disappointing because although I know about~6000 words, I still lack in comprehension. I read a lot and add every word I encounter and do not know with rikaisama.. Progress is so slow, tormenting and needs a LOT of motivation not to cancel/abort everything. It's a pity to know that my comprehension is as big as the one of a Japanese kid T__T

When will you ever learn to listen! I told you to quit some months ago. Give up, I said! You are a looser, I said. But NO! The fine Monsieur Tori refused to listen, and see what has happend since, he is struggling even more. Thinks he has got it, but he fails, struggles, and it is obvious that he will never be able to get there. I wonder how much more it needs for you to realize that you fail to learn the language, that you wasted all your time better spend for fun activities! Maybe you will listen now, and give up, as I told you. No need to worry anymore, life will go on!

Oh, but wait! Look at how far you already come! Look at your lang-8 diary, think of RTK, think of all the things you were able to achieve. Would you really want to give up, just because your progress is slowing down, and you have difficulty with comprehension of the spoken language? You have come very far, don't let it get to you, you can overcome this problem. Go back to the basics as was suggested by kainzero and myself a few months ago. And think of your goal: JLPT, move to Japan for some weeks with your girlfriend, have a fun time there. So it isn't worth even thinking about giving up.

No, you better give up, Tori. The arguments for giving up are outweighing the reasons for not giving up. And this time, listen to me, give up. Gib auf, að hætta, å gi opp!