Okay, before I begin can I just ask that there's no flame wars/whatever was wrong with other AJATT-related threads please please please? Especially about SilverSpoon. Unless you've actually done SilverSpoon and can give a review of your experiences, I don't think it's fair for anyone to knowingly judge a product without having actually tried it.

I don't think the topic of AJATT should incite the kind of mania it does but there's no real avoiding it so I will say this:

I am a fan and believer of AJATT. Yes, I understand his ideas aren't completely original but I don't think that is a good enough reason to say nasty things about him. Nor do I think is it worth the kind of bad feelings that always arise when discussions about him come up.

I can defend his theories on language learning to the extent that I have used them vigorously and seen results that I like. But, again, I agree with many people that he is only spouting common sense but I will also defend him in that it was the way he spouted it that finally clicked for me and, so to say, made me see "the light" for improving the way I was learning Japanese.

(Besides, as an RTK user enrolled in university Japanese classes I had to deal with a fair share of haters who were like "omgz ur not writing them a billion timez like all the Japanese and Chinese do!? ur stoopid" and I only wished they could be a little less narrow-minded to evaluate the method for more than just their biased first impressions. But, I digress)

That being said, I still see him as someone who is running a company that is generating products for sale. In this way, I think it's only fair for me, as one of his customers, to post a frank critique of what I've bought from him: namely the 7 or so months of AJATT+ I have subscribed to.

In all honesty, I have enjoyed the extra features that it provides, like the Japanese translations of articles, its audio, and some of the cool extra things he's posted in AJATT+ articles.

I have a love-hate relationship with the forum. I'm glad to be able to talk to like-minded individuals who, from my experience, are much warmer and supporting than some people on here can be. Even still, the forums are often dead and the chat room he started is mostly empty so the lack of the community feeling is kinda bleh.

I wouldn't mind subscribing to just an AJATT forum for a lower price (at most $5) because I think because the group is paying for it, we are in a way motivated to use it more seriously and not just troll or whatever. However I would like in return for the group to be more mobilized and include more Japanese within forums, whether it's your own Japanese or things you have found from books, manga, movies, etc (especially beginners).

One of the nice things about the AJATT+ forums is that you're required to include an OL2L link. I usually only watch videos people post because none of the articles people put up seem to really catch my eye, but nevertheless it is cool to find new Japanese media I can listen to while typing and reading other posts in English.

But, again, this is my review for why I've decided not to re-subscribe.

The primary reason is that while some posts are useful and relevant to my studies (i.e. sentence pack posts or anything that includes Japanese), I find that as time is passing he's pouring more of his energy into other projects and in turn, AJATT+ is becoming a watered down and less interesting version of his main blog. Sometimes these posts are only a few lines include motivational quotes or random thoughts, and other times they are just responses to things people have asked him on the forums: either way, they feel like a cheap way of posting up something expedient as to provide some service versus none. Hence, me the disgruntled customer @_@

As a whole I'm not satisfied because it feels like the service in general is really static. I enjoy the community it has created and a few of the features it offers, but if you're looking into AJATT+ I really only recommend for around a month or so because after you've SRS'd his Japanese articles, you've pretty much tapped out the most useful thing about it.

Overall Score: first month~ 7/10
after that~ 4/10

If anyone else has had or is subscribed to AJATT+, it'd be cool to hear what you've got to say as well.

If there are any users who haven't used AJATT+ and want to ask questions about what it offers, どうぞ

If you're just going to bash Khatz, his method, etc. please go elsewhere.

よろしくお願いしますね。

What is OL2L?

I can't remember what it exactly stands for, but it's a link to something in Japanese (or whatever language you're studying).

I'd pretty much agree with what you said. I signed up for the forums, which have been dead.

Thanks. So you're required to include a link to something in your target language when posting on the forum. Hmm. Sounds like the kind of thing he would encourage.

magamo Wrote:What is OL2L?

My guess is that it is an abbreviation for Original Language to Second Language.

@tnall and zer0range, of course it is good to have a private space with a handful of members sharing the same goals, and are bound to uphold a certain quality in communication with each other. But you also noticed the downside of paid-access model to a forum, as there are only so many people willing to pay, to get access to it.

I find your review very interesting, tnall. Thanks for it.

My guess is Obligatory L2 Link.

Quote:of course it is good to have a private space with a handful of members sharing the same goals, and are bound to uphold a certain quality in communication with each other. But you also noticed the downside of paid-access model to a forum, as there are only so many people willing to pay, to get access to it.

Yes, and also to be fair to the forum, I am a Chinese learner, so a good deal of the meager posting was completely irrelevant to me to begin with.

I think Khatz may have been better off in the long run with an open forum, perhaps with a sub-forum for pay only. Of course, I don't really understand how to run a successful website/community, so...

I tried AJATT plus and it does offer some very informative stuff on how to get to the translation industry(free-lance,contract,etc) It does provide a warming community and fellow AJATT learners+language learners(isn't that the same thing?). So it's good for a try but not really for the long-term. I prefer this forum because it's free, people collaborate and extremely useful mods/softwares on creating srs cards/making learning easier for everyone.

zer0range Wrote:I think Khatz may have been better off in the long run with an open forum, perhaps with a sub-forum for pay only.

ta12121 Wrote:I prefer this forum because it's free, people collaborate and extremely useful mods/softwares on creating srs cards/making learning easier for everyone.

I agree completely. Now that I think about it, RTK has always been my go-to forum in terms of the discussions it holds and the really cool software users introduce. It's amazing what you can find on this site, thanks to the brilliant people and collaboration an open forum encourages.

I do however think that AJATT+ has one HUGE advantage over RTK: the ability to sell and buy books and DVDs from people you can trust. Not to say that people on here are shady or anything, but the added comfort of knowing that both parties in the transaction are paying a subscription fee gives you the feeling of insurance you would need to be doing a transaction in goods/money.

So yeah. AJATT+ does have its perks, but unless he does something to drastically change what he's giving us now I think re-subscribing would be wasting $15 I could use to scan and OCR a cool book from densika.com

What I noticed about AJATT+ is that, he even says you don't need it and it's true. Use of an srs(anki) is free, there are loads of free resources,audio,multi-media resources. That money is actually better spent on native jp material.

ta12121 Wrote:What I noticed about AJATT+ is that, he even says you don't need it and it's true.

He says that for everything he does. That's his marketing angle.

I was emailed a free week long trial subscription to AJATT+ about a year ago, and took the offer.

The private blog articles were pretty decent (though didn't take long to read), and the forum was..ok. Alot of people discussing AJATT method or SRSing, immersion, not that different to here really, but not as active.

The main thing that struck me was how little khatz participated. I assumed he would be an active member of his own forum, especially as it even had a dedicated "ask khatz" sub-forum, but in that section, most questions were answered by other members. Although I don't revere him as some sort of guru, it would be useful to ask "I'm doing X and not sure it's working; what did you do in this situation when you were learning Japanese?", but honestly I barely saw a single post by him. I wonder if that's still the case?

Also 2 new Japanese posts a month seems a bit slow / lazy for $10-$15 per month. Not enough new content to keep regular subscribers; better to just sign up once a year and download everything at once.

TheVinster Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:What I noticed about AJATT+ is that, he even says you don't need it and it's true.

He says that for everything he does. That's his marketing angle.

I guess it drives me to come to it

ta12121 Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:What I noticed about AJATT+ is that, he even says you don't need it and it's true.

He says that for everything he does. That's his marketing angle.

I guess it drives me to come to it

Ironically it was those warnings he would give that made me decide not to buy any of his other products, even if they were relatively cheap.

also an ajatt+er here

I think it really rings true. He doesn't seem to really care about it anymore. The articles posted recently were kinda... blah. Nothing really interesting or significant

On the other hand, he started posting a sentence pack which I think is fantastic, so that balances that out. But that's just because I'm at the point where I will still need it, I guess.

The OL2L are great, I like the forums but once you've caught up with the past they're kinda slow. You can get help from people and it's not a bad forum to be in, but as how it was said, it's pretty dead.

The thing that turned me off the most, however, is that there's an "Ask Khatzumoto" forum, and he doesn't answer any of the questions. Sometimes users answer them, but I haven't seen him answer any in months. Even really important questions, like how to unsubscribe when using a credit card go unanswered by him. Other people will do their best to answer them but I still feel like that's kinda lame. There's not a ton of questions, maybe one a week and he still doesn't answer them.

AJP is great for buying one month, but it just doesn't hold up in the long term.

If you're concerned about your AJATT account, you might consider this. I posted a reply to AJATT yesterday, regarding the Silver Suppon package, which Khatz promptly deleted. Guess I raised some questions he didn't like.

Background: In the thread, I questioned Khatz's Japanese ability. After all, his customers are gambling hundreds of dollars on the premise that they can reach his level. He says he did it, and so can you. Okay fine, but what's his level? I questioned his ability to speak on a range of basic topics, such as politics, religion, or social issues. A subsequent poster then asked me "What does religion or political issues have anything to do with being fluent?" The following is the reply Khatz took down. Why? You tell me:

Because everybody who studies Japanese becomes fluent on the same three topics: Me, Me, and Me. You get great at telling people where you’re from, about your family, what kind of food you like, and how you study Japanese. And that’s interesting to other people for about, oh, five minutes. But you know what’s really hard to do? Talk about something that isn’t You.

Because once people get tired of talking about You, they actually talk about other things. You know, there’s some pretty heavy stuff happening in the world these days: wars between religiously divergent nations, a global economic crisis, a nuclear meltdown, climate change . . . Americans can expect to be asked about the American economy, George Bush versus Barack Obama, gun control, how you felt on 9/11 . . . You can’t just talk about how don’t like natto all day long. Being fluent absolutely includes the ability to field substantial questions. If you could answer in English, you should be able to formulate some kind of a response in Japanese. Your grammar and vocabulary don’t have to be perfect, but you definitely need to be able to express your own ideas. Or you could just babble about your hobbies. I’m sure everyone would be fascinated.

By the way, I don’t know anybody here who talks like Khatz. But probably somebody does. Hey, it’s a big nation. Anyway, the dude’s about 28 years old. You imply he’s young, but he’s closer to middle-aged. To have an adult conversation, you need the ability to talk about the news of the day.

But who cares. Look, I don’t give a fig’s leaf how well Khatz speaks Japanese. And I actually like a lot of ideas on this site. But when he start selling his program for hundreds of dollars, then we gotta ask some questions, okay? And he guarantees fluency in 18-months. Yeeeaah, maybe . . . or maybe his customers will get discouraged at their inability to duplicate his claims, and give up learning Japanese altogether. That happens a lot. People don’t fail to become fluent because they don’t have the right method. They fail because it’s harder than they thought, and they give up.

Ask yourself--not for me, but for you--Where’s the proof? He says he learned Japanese in 18 months. Really? From zero? Or did he take a class or two, decide they sucked, and then “start”? Also, if he is from Kenya, was he already bilingual in a language other than English? If so, that’s a big advantage that others may not have. Finally, how good is he today? He’s now lived in Japan for five years and he’s been acquiring Japanese for, I don’t know, about seven years. That’s a really long time. He ought to be freaking amazing by now. Just ask for proof. Or not, whatever. I mean, he’s on the Internet, so I’m sure you can believe him.

The proof is in the pudding.. or so they say. What people forget is he offers a full money back guarantee at any time if you don't like the results of the 'course'. So all other concerns are moot. You either succeed and pay, or fail and don't pay. Simple.

tarkonis Wrote:The proof is in the pudding.. or so they say. What people forget is he offers a full money back guarantee at any time if you don't like the results of the 'course'. So all other concerns are moot. You either succeed and pay, or fail and don't pay. Simple.

You should also take into account the lost time that can't be refunded if such a situation occurred. Just for fairness sake. Although I guess language learning really comes down to trial-and-error in an effort to find what works for you.

can we please not turn this into another silverspoon topic?

Kyosys Wrote:can we please not turn this into another silverspoon topic?

not sure why this is happening again...

tnall Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

TheVinster Wrote:He says that for everything he does. That's his marketing angle.

I guess it drives me to come to it

Ironically it was those warnings he would give that made me decide not to buy any of his other products, even if they were relatively cheap.

I've bought this AJATT guide+with the sentence list included (got refunded on both because I already knew those sentences). Then AJATT+ when it came out. but the good thing is, I decided not to go again.

DekiruKana Wrote:If you're concerned about your AJATT account, you might consider this. I posted a reply to AJATT yesterday, regarding the Silver Suppon package, which Khatz promptly deleted. Guess I raised some questions he didn't like..

SS has been discussed here before, and all the points you've made have been brought up time and time again. All SS threads are now locked.

The original poster specifically asked for this not to turn into a SS discussion, so please respect that.

DekiruKana Wrote:If you're concerned about your AJATT account, you might consider this. I posted a reply to AJATT yesterday, regarding the Silver Suppon package, which Khatz promptly deleted. Guess I raised some questions he didn't like.

Background: In the thread, I questioned Khatz's Japanese ability. After all, his customers are gambling hundreds of dollars on the premise that they can reach his level. He says he did it, and so can you. Okay fine, but what's his level? I questioned his ability to speak on a range of basic topics, such as politics, religion, or social issues. A subsequent poster then asked me "What does religion or political issues have anything to do with being fluent?" The following is the reply Khatz took down. Why? You tell me:

Because everybody who studies Japanese becomes fluent on the same three topics: Me, Me, and Me. You get great at telling people where you’re from, about your family, what kind of food you like, and how you study Japanese. And that’s interesting to other people for about, oh, five minutes. But you know what’s really hard to do? Talk about something that isn’t You.

Because once people get tired of talking about You, they actually talk about other things. You know, there’s some pretty heavy stuff happening in the world these days: wars between religiously divergent nations, a global economic crisis, a nuclear meltdown, climate change . . . Americans can expect to be asked about the American economy, George Bush versus Barack Obama, gun control, how you felt on 9/11 . . . You can’t just talk about how don’t like natto all day long. Being fluent absolutely includes the ability to field substantial questions. If you could answer in English, you should be able to formulate some kind of a response in Japanese. Your grammar and vocabulary don’t have to be perfect, but you definitely need to be able to express your own ideas. Or you could just babble about your hobbies. I’m sure everyone would be fascinated.

By the way, I don’t know anybody here who talks like Khatz. But probably somebody does. Hey, it’s a big nation. Anyway, the dude’s about 28 years old. You imply he’s young, but he’s closer to middle-aged. To have an adult conversation, you need the ability to talk about the news of the day.

But who cares. Look, I don’t give a fig’s leaf how well Khatz speaks Japanese. And I actually like a lot of ideas on this site. But when he start selling his program for hundreds of dollars, then we gotta ask some questions, okay? And he guarantees fluency in 18-months. Yeeeaah, maybe . . . or maybe his customers will get discouraged at their inability to duplicate his claims, and give up learning Japanese altogether. That happens a lot. People don’t fail to become fluent because they don’t have the right method. They fail because it’s harder than they thought, and they give up.

Ask yourself--not for me, but for you--Where’s the proof? He says he learned Japanese in 18 months. Really? From zero? Or did he take a class or two, decide they sucked, and then “start”? Also, if he is from Kenya, was he already bilingual in a language other than English? If so, that’s a big advantage that others may not have. Finally, how good is he today? He’s now lived in Japan for five years and he’s been acquiring Japanese for, I don’t know, about seven years. That’s a really long time. He ought to be freaking amazing by now. Just ask for proof. Or not, whatever. I mean, he’s on the Internet, so I’m sure you can believe him.

Re:Khatzumoto's Japanese ability, doesn't he have a video up on YouTube somewhere of him speaking in Japanese? Someone should get native speaker's opinion on that, IMO, even though I'm not sure how long he had been speaking Japanese for at that point. Also, I checked out AJATT+ a while ago and he has audio clips of him interpreting regular English AJATT articles into Japanese real-time. But, to be honest, I have no idea about the quality since I was really terrible at the time. I don't recall him struggling with it, though.

If you're looking for proof of his "fluent in 18 months" claim, I'm pretty sure that's impossible. I doubt he was like, "Oh, some day in the future I may make a website about learning Japanese based on the premise that I learned Japanese to fluency very quickly and by having fun... I'd better video myself speaking Japanese while holding a this week's newspaper as proof!" IIRC, he was good enough to get flown over to Japan to work in a Japanese company like a regular Japanese based on his Japanese ability alone. That's also going off of his word, though. Anyway, I'm just saying that you're asking for proof of something that can't be proven beyond a doubt.

aphasiac Wrote:SS has been discussed here before, and all the points you've made have been brought up time and time again. All SS threads are now locked.

The original poster specifically asked for this not to turn into a SS discussion, so please respect that.

Thank you. I want this topic to be a valid source of discussion for anyone who is thinking of purchasing AJATT+, SS, or whatever other wares Khatz is selling, and I don't think it's fair for anyone to let the convo devolve into "Khatz is a big fat stinky liar and I think his head is DUMB" -_-

If you've actually signed up for SS or are in it currently, it would be great to hear your thoughts on it.

The discussion on whether Khatz is credible/fluent/a money-hungry liar, etc. etc. etc. has been pretty much beat into the ground so personally I think it would just be more interesting to hear people who can lend credible points of view on the subject.

If someone manages to go through whole SS experience and comes out of it confidently fluent, that's when I will give SS the kind of credibility Khatz wants to market it as. Even then, there were still be other members who didn't finish so evaluating it only on those who did go through the whole thing we would be excluding all of the data from those who didn't, which is just as if not even more important o_o

tnall Wrote:"Khatz is a big fat stinky liar and I think his head is DUMB"

I don't think anyone on this website has said anything remotely like that about him.