[ファブリス]

I thought I'd create this thread for those wondering where member Soandso went.

Last Week's Casualties

After the recent AJATT topics went a little sour, bodhisamaya requested by email to delete his profile. A mostly symbolic request as it would not be reasonable to delete all past participation, the username change was not in question (as it is just a nickname), and the profile itself can be edited by the user to remove email, location etc, if wanted.

As for nestOr, just to be clear: he was not banned since he stopped posting when I started waving the ban stick. This is good as I prefer people to "self moderate".

I only suggested that he/she take a break from the forum to put things in perspective, which is what a temporary ban is meant to do. He/she may or may not be back, it's his choice.

Does anyone remember the days when AJATT was the cool new thing that led most of us here, and we weren't arguing the efficacy of my method vs. yours because either way, you're learning the language?

I miss those days. Now we've descended into flamewar hell.

Guys, if you like AJATT, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it. It really doesn't matter nearly as much as you think.

Sad to see two of the best contributors gone.

Thanks for keeping us updated. I was starting to wonder where bodhi went. I guess this sort of thing can't be helped... *sigh*

Seems like a trivial thing when you think about it. Discussions get pretty heated sometimes it is a blow loosing good members of this community.

mezbup Wrote:Seems like a trivial thing when you think about it. Discussions get pretty heated sometimes it is a blow loosing good members of this community.

I'm pretty sure they weren't that mad about the discussion. Both sides were carrying on the argument, but they got singled out as the ones causing the argument and were threatened with a ban. I would be mad too.

well i hope they both come back.

now that nest0r's gone i took a look at some of her theory posts and they're all pretty good. they're also really progressive and modern. a lot of people here contribute personal experience as advice, whereas nest0r would always cite academic papers and studies. it was nice to gain that perspective.

also i like bodhisamaya's crass humor.

the argument in question wasn't really ajatt or not but rather that another poster made an inflammatory post that the admin agreed with, to which nest0r took offense. i feel that all their other arguments up to that point were on the board and pertaining to study methods.

maybe it's just me but i never feel like arguments on the internet are meant to persuade and convince; but to gain perspective and offer another source of information, as well as to solidify your own personal view. they might seem heated but i think it's only then do we gain a deeper understanding of both issues.

Huh? is nest0r a she??

I have no idea what is going on, what happened?

[ファブリス]

Tzadeck Wrote:I'm pretty sure they weren't that mad about the discussion. Both sides were carrying on the argument, but they got singled out as the ones causing the argument and were threatened with a ban. I would be mad too.

1) How do I not single out anybody? It's not possible. Where do you begin "singling" out someone, where does it end? Should I run an advanced A.I. program to interpret every post on 20+ pages to determine the highest "troll" rating and then where do I draw the line between bannable and non bannable?

2) It is logical that I pay more attention to the more established members. People who have 1000+ post count, you would expect to have developed some skin, not just towards trolling, but also self restraint in posting and arguing.

3) Frequent/long time posters, whether consciously or not, set the trend in the current topic and the community in general. So of course, they will always be my #1 "target". That's probably what happened here, in that nestOr and bodhisamaya supported each other without realizing when it's time to stop the "argumentation" game.

4) I only threatened with a temporary ban. Again, a long time member and frequent forum poster should grow some skin and remember the admin gotta do what admins do, and there was no need for either nestOr or bodhisamaya to be so offended. It's not the first time I make less than perfect decisions, and it won't be the last.

5) In the ideal world, the forum admin is always up to date on all the topics. In reality, the admin takes care of the backend stuff, deletes and IP ban spammers, remembers to download regular backups, pay the bills for the hosting, etc. I can't be expected to read every single post to figure out who's really responsible. It's not even possible. Everyone who argues in the thread is responsible, and the "polite" passive/aggressive posts do not fool me.

6) I could go on and on, but I won't argue this further.

bcrAn Wrote:Huh? is nest0r a she??

They certainly seem male, don't they?

I'd apologize, but English doesn't have a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun (beyond "they").

Waaa I missed the whole thing... I always imagined Nestor as Matt Damon in one of those "I'm a misunderstood genius" type of films... (Good Will Hunting I think it was)

jcdietz03 Wrote:I'd apologize, but English doesn't have a gender neutral 3rd person singular pronoun (beyond "they").

Use "they". If we all use it even in situations where it sounds just a little bit weird, then in fifty to a hundred years time we might have a genuine all-purpose neutral 3psp :-)

kainzero Wrote:now that nest0r's gone i took a look at some of her theory

A typo I guess.

mizunooto Wrote:Waaa I missed the whole thing... I always imagined Nestor as Matt Damon in one of those "I'm a misunderstood genius" type of films... (Good Will Hunting I think it was)

Yeah, and bodhi like an spiritual guru. There's also tobberoth but I don't know where he went.

Basically, I think as the admin you should have been more objective and not taken a mocking tone in some of your posts.

When you closed the first thread you said:
"Tomorrow I will add a 5$ membership with some extra features and oooOOOOh I will be evil personified! Fabrice is ripping us off! He's asking 5$ for something that already exists on some website somewhere in the corner of the ultraverse! How could he think we are so gullible? We can learn this by ourselves!! We don't need no stinking 5$ membership, just use dictionary and a paper bookmark and it'll do the same! Fabrice you suck, plz delete my account I don't want top participate in this community anymore!"
Essentially, you were taking the positing that the people who were anti-SilverSpoon were being crybabies and overreacting.

And then when people continued to argue in the second thread you only threatened a ban on the people who were anti-Silverspoon.

What was inappropriate about the initial thread was that people were being hostile to each other and the argument was going nowhere. Both sides continued to post, so it was an ongoing silly argument. The result was that the thread was closed, which was a good decision. It was not inappropriate to criticize SilverSpoon--that should be completely okay.

What was inappropriate about posting in the second thread was that people continued to do a debate which you took an action to stop, an action you had the right to do as an admin. Once again, the problem was not crticizing SilverSpoon--it was failing to comply with forum etiquette.

So, I think that the appropriate way to handle it would have been:
A) To close the first thread because of the hostile environment, with a simple explanation that the thread was going nowhere and the hostile environment was bad for the forum as a whole. You shouldn't have taken a side (At least in a post where you are acting as an admin. Of course you can take sides in posts of a personal nature.), and you certainly shouldn't have taken a side with a post that sounded like you were mocking one side.
B) You should have threatened anyone who continued the debate in the second thread with a ban. There was no reason to only threaten people on one side of the debate with a ban.

I think if you had done A and B it would have looked like you were addressing what was objectively inappropriate about what was going on. The way you did it just looked like you had taken a side.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly blaming you 100%. A lot of people were pretty emotional at the time, and just because you're in a position of authority doesn't mean you can easily detach yourself from that atmosphere and look at the situation objectively. It's also, in general, hard for people in positions of power to think of the power structure in the same way that the people in lower positions do (That is, you can close threads or ban people, and we can't. We're much more likely to view your actions as unfair if we feel you're not acting completely objectively, and you're more likely to view your own actions as necessary and just. Works that way with any power structure. The reason I didn't want you to bring banning into the situation, as I mentioned in the second thread, was that I didn't want you to bring the power structure into it.)

I do think that if you handled it a bit differently we wouldn't have lost one, or potentially two, long-term forum members. It would be too much to expect you to act perfectly in every situation. You're overall very fair, and I'm grateful for this site and this forum (I've never made more than 30 posts in any other forum ever, so it's obvious that this is the best forum I've ever been on). It's just that I think you could have handled this one situation a bit better.

Tzadeck Wrote:And then when people continued to argue in the second thread you only threatened a ban on the people who were anti-Silverspoon.

I'm not sure why Fabrice isn't saying this himself, but from what I can see, bodhi and nest0r were the only ones who were openly hostile and defiant to the admin himself.

ファブリス Wrote:2) It is logical that I pay more attention to the more established members. People who have 1000+ post count, you would expect to have developed some skin, not just towards trolling, but also self restraint in posting and arguing.

People with 1000+ post counts on this board talk too much. They're the ones least likely to show self-restraint because they're already quick to hit the Post button.

vgambit Wrote:People with 1000+ post counts on this board talk too much. They're the ones least likely to show self-restraint because they're already quick to hit the Post button.

Haha, you make a over-simplified generalization about members of this forum, and then say that other people are the ones quick-to-post and unable to show self-restraint.

JimmySeal Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:And then when people continued to argue in the second thread you only threatened a ban on the people who were anti-Silverspoon.

I'm not sure why Fabrice isn't saying this himself, but from what I can see, bodhi and nest0r were the only ones who were openly hostile and defiant to the admin himself.

Well, my post was a simplified version of events. Fabrice also had made some posts about them in a mocking or hostile manner (It's hard to say if Fabrice really did this before they did or not. It depends on how you interpret things--what counts as hostile? Either way, it was at about the same time). The only really hostile posts about Fabrice were after he had already threatened the ban (mainly, nest0r's one about deleting his account), which I think goes back to how frustrated people get in a hostile argument that involves a power structure. It would be best to have not let it come to that.

The way I see it, it was the two members who were making the most trouble in the AJATT/Silverspoon threads that were threatened with a ban. Bodhisamaya necroed an old thread in order to continue the previous banned discussion, Nest0r was being insulting to anyone and everyone who disagreed (being condescending and passive aggressive IS being insulting).

It is a shame that the forum lost two members whom others feel were valuable, at the same time you would think that these members would also be able to show some restraint. As Fabrice said, the most prolific posters set the tone of the forum - and the tone they were setting was one of condescending bitchiness and insulting others' learning methods.

One thing I don't think people understand is that this wasn't a constructive "both sides are equally valuable" discussion. It was "I love Silverspoon/I like it/I think it's useful for some people" vs "No, you're wrong, it's for idiots". What is constructive about that?

Both of them were rude to Fabrice (I see a couple of those posts have been deleted), so they're lucky they weren't just banned outright. They were threatened with a temporary ban, because they were continuing arguing when they'd already been told to stop. It's sad that they're were so offended by this that they decided to leave. Maybe they now know what it's like to be shut-down by a more senior poster.

It wasn't only those two who were continuing the discussion alone of course. But after they were threatened with a ban (and they thus disappeared from the thread), the discussion immediately calmed down, and became constructive, or at least civil. Which was the desired effect, no?

bodhisamaya deleted his account?! That's a real shame, lots of his posts were funny



Tzadeck, Fabrice only pointed out Nest0r and Bodhisamaya in the second thread because they were the ones who were using that thread to instigate another argument about it... notably using multiple posts to do so, so they were the obvious ones.
(From here down: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid148314 pretty much all other posters are saying let it die. Nest0r originally said let it die, then launched into another tirade against AJATT).

edit: Tefhel said it much better than i can...

I just hope nest0r comes back, their posts were some of the most useful to me and gave some balance to the forum (not that I always agreed with them).

imo the posters pro AJATT were just as bad, and now it seems like AJATT is this thing that can't be criticised here, which isn't good...

caivano Wrote:imo the posters pro AJATT were just as bad, and now it seems like AJATT is this thing that can't be criticised here, which isn't good...

this x1000. as an interested (though not very eloquent) observer I'm kind of blown away that the silverspoon crowd got off this scott-free. if this board could only enact a rule: no talking about silverspoon (be that either positively or negatively), it would keep this place from seeming like an ss advertisement/haters' forum and we just collectively MOVED ON. please.

What the hell? I go away for a few months and you all turn on one another! I didn't realise I was such a social keystone. At least IceCream is back in fine fettle.

dfmoss Wrote:

caivano Wrote:imo the posters pro AJATT were just as bad, and now it seems like AJATT is this thing that can't be criticised here, which isn't good...

this x1000. as an interested (though not very eloquent) observer I'm kind of blown away that the silverspoon crowd got off this scott-free. if this board could only enact a rule: no talking about silverspoon (be that either positively or negatively), it would keep this place from seeming like an ss advertisement/haters' forum and we just collectively MOVED ON. please.

The pro AJATT people didn't resurrect a dead thread to keep bickering after the thread was closed. Sure, they joined in the bickering again in the new thread, but whatever. No one was punished. Come on, the only thing even threatened was a temporary ban. Unless your life revolves around this place, that's hardly cruel and unusual.

Thread got out of control -> thread closed by admin -> argument started again in new thread -> people responsible threatened with temporary ban -> Emo quit?

The fact that ファブリス previously posted on the side of the AJATTers i don't think means he acted improperly.

All I really meant to say is that in the future we should be more careful. I think we should probably just move on now.