I lurk on here a lottt but I have never posted. I finally got the motivation to learn Japanese myself after so many years of procrastinating, mainly due to the fact that I desperately want to be able to read visual novels, even with references, in the far far future ahaha (specifically,うみねこのなく頃に翼 EP8. Translations are taking too long, screw it I wanna learn the language!) I get a little anxious when there is just such a ridiculous amount of resources on the internet. I use RTK and Anki, but my biggest question is how exactly does one make quick, efficient SRS decks? I don't mean quick as in half-assed but how people create decks with thousands of cards. The thing that brings me down the most is that I can't really see how after doing RTK that will help me learn on-yomi, kun-yomi, and really, the language itself. It is super helpful to actually be able to recognize and write Kanji confidently but I always think when I'm done, what am I going to do with just knowing single Kanji and not knowing compounds and the like. I am completely aware of Tae Kim's Grammar Guide and use that. I have a ton of native material like magazines and manga and it makes me happy when I kinda can get the gist of what it's saying knowing the MEANING of the Kanji, but it also makes me frustrated because I have no idea how I will learn the readings in a sensible way that I won't be clueless with. Most of the vocab decks I see are all sentences and I see how that is good, but it's a little useless when you can't understand the sentence to begin with :/ I wasn't actually starting any of the Smart.fm decks or whatever just yet, but I was browsing through them with Anki and it just confuses me how I will learn vocab like that :/ Aaaaaand making decks! I know I can't rely on using premade decks forever since it becomes a little robotic and hypnotizing, so how do you make your decks? ughhhhhhhhh . I do know that there are stickies and I browse the forum far and wide to find answers for my questions, but I can't. Sorry if this was a waste of your time to read :/

you know, you remind me of myself in the begining phases of learning jp. One thing I recommend is, one thing at a time. Sure people love to do multiply things at a time(me included) but i've reached an advanced level, so don't include me. I recommend you read up on the thread about people's srs methods/how they learn. It will give you a better idea of where to go. Or look at AJATT, which is what got me started. It will give you the motivation necessary (since there will be a lot of failures when you start learning a language). So it's natural if you're really bad. Just give it time and have fun.

I will post my method and what I do to give you an idea. But I gotta head to bed, it's late. I'll post it later tomorrow.

I highly recommend you stick to pure vocab learning as far as formal study is concerned. The fastest way I know of to make an anki vocab deck is to use the rikaichan plugin for firefox. Basically type all your words into a text field (google for an online text editor), then mouse over them and hit 's' to export the words, pronunciation in kana and definitions to a text file. Then import the text file into anki.

You don't have to use an SRS though. I don't. You can just write wordlists and then manually review them in a sensible manner. I find this to be more effective and efficient for a number of reasons.

One more thing. If you don't already have an electronic dictionary, I really recommend you buy a decent one.

nadiatims Wrote:One more thing. If you don't already have an electronic dictionary, I really recommend you buy a decent one.

Or, you could buy an ipod.
I'm not sure if the apps 'Midori' or 'Japanese' are better than actual electronic dictionaries, but they work for me.

ta12121 Wrote:[...] will give you a better idea of where to go. Or look at AJATT, which is what got me started. It will give you the motivation necessary

i will happily upset lots of people and second that. it's not a silver bullet, but at the specific point where you are at, asking the specific questions you're asking... alljapaneseallthetime.com is exactly the best resource to get you started actually learning the language after finishing kanji study.

just dont give him any money ;D

eh, I don't recommend AJATT for a beginner.

I remember looking at it and being extremely overwhelmed, despite not really learning anything new about Japanese.

So, I went a more traditional route, and regret it. I took Japanese classes at the end of which I knew a couple hundred kanji that were included in my textbook, and haphazardly tried to memorize more kanji, learning each one with every single possible reading and vocabulary words around it...

This doesn't work, or if it works, it works -badly-. Learning RTK does not, of course, give you any readings at all, but it gives you the recognition of -plenty- of kanji to be a fluent reader and the tools to add more kanji. After you have those kanji under your belt, adding readings and additional meanings is -simple-. For the 400-500 kanji that I 'really' know, I know this from experience.

The problem for me is the next thousand or so kanji that I sometimes know to read by recognition, at least if they show up in the context of a certain word and maybe sometimes in other cases... but that slip my mind if I don't see them for a week or two. Well, that's why I'm doing RTK despite years of study!

In summary, if you do RTK, and right after finishing RTK1 launch straight into vocabulary building by adding words from native material that you're trying to decipher into an anki deck, you'll be fine.

It's really entirely ass-backwards to try to learn the readings associated with a kanji - learn the readings a kanji has as a verb with okurigana attached or as a standalone word, but for heavens sake, don't try to learn all the compound readings. (Anyway, to cite a common example, what -are- the readings for 大 and　人　that make them combine into おとな ? Answer: There are none. You could arbitrarily say 'large' is 'o' and 'person' is 'tona', or else 'large' is 'oto' and person is 'na', but the truth is the two combine to make a word. There are many irregular readings like this - not as many in -number- as there are ON-compound readings, but they are more -common- than straight up compounds.)

Anyway, the point is, if you know the meaning, appearance, and writing of each kanji, attaching that to words is -easy-. That collection of memorized information doesn't take -more- work to add vocabulary onto, but rather provides many hooks to make it -easier- to add vocabulary onto.

So anyhow, once you have RTK down, you just start learning the pronunciation of each word you come across that you're interested in. Ideally you'll read some works with furigana to start with, which should make it really easy to look things up (and BTW, -everything- in Shonen Jump is fully furigana, and that weekly is a lot of content for a reasonable price... but a lot of it is too slangy/eccentric/comedic to make really good learning material... which didn't stop me from reading it for years, and that I -don't- regret in the least, it was fun!)

If you have money to blow and time to invest in finding them, you might be better off getting juvenile novels that have furigana in them, but that's a very slim range of publications. There are also a few Japanese readers out there that provide good information in English. The book Read Real Japanese (Michael Emmerich) did a great deal for my reading comprehension http://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese...438&sr=8-2 ... not to say anything against the -other- Read Real Japanese by Janet Ashby that I've heard praise for but don't have myself.

PS: Seeing some posts that sniped me... ah... I'm reluctant to say -anything- about AJATT given the sharp divide here and not having any interest in getting embroiled in that war, but... an observation I've made is that AJATT the -site- is a rather rambling and often incoherent way to apply the antimoon method to e->j learning. Reading antimoon.com is probably more beneficial and certainly should precede looking at the AJATT site. The AJATT method I'm sure is effective - the antimoon method is after all - but it's difficult to comprehend from the site. Silverspoon... is not for me.

iamsymmetrical Wrote:I use RTK and Anki, but my biggest question is how exactly does one make quick, efficient SRS decks? I don't mean quick as in half-assed but how people create decks with thousands of cards.

All my SRS decks are manually entered sentences from either random sources, KO2001, or JLPT study material.

I never entered it all at once but would create like 15 or so a day. Either way, the number of cards isn't really that important, what you want to focus on is the amount of content and the amount of time you study.

Quote:The thing that brings me down the most is that I can't really see how after doing RTK that will help me learn on-yomi, kun-yomi, and really, the language itself. It is super helpful to actually be able to recognize and write Kanji confidently but I always think when I'm done, what am I going to do with just knowing single Kanji and not knowing compounds and the like.

Because you can recognize it, you can easily attach it to words as SomeCallMeChris has said.

I used KO2001 because I liked learning kanji in bunches. Learning a bunch of compounds with 日, then 月 was much easier for me to grasp than to learn one sentence with 日 and then another sentence with 必 and then another sentence with 完。 And the beginning is ALWAYS slow.

RTK helped me in that I could tell the difference between all the Kanji, but that's it. I don't even use the keyword.

Quote:Most of the vocab decks I see are all sentences and I see how that is good, but it's a little useless when you can't understand the sentence to begin with :/ I wasn't actually starting any of the Smart.fm decks or whatever just yet, but I was browsing through them with Anki and it just confuses me how I will learn vocab like that :/

Why don't you understand the sentences? Too many words? Can't distinguish the parts of speech? You might want to start with the most simple of sentences with the most simple grammar before proceeding, like Tae Kim/Genki/what-have-you.

And like I said, the beginning is really rough. When I started KO2001 it took me like 20 minutes to do 30 cards because I was slow. Now I can do something like 80 cards in 20 minutes because I can zip through it because I know more.

Quote:Aaaaaand making decks! I know I can't rely on using premade decks forever since it becomes a little robotic and hypnotizing, so how do you make your decks?

Manually, with the Japanese plug-in. Write sentence in Japanese, correct anything in the bottom field, then write in the definition.

Nothing's wrong with premade decks. I prefer making my own because I view the input of the cards as my initial study session.

iamsymmetrical Wrote:The thing that brings me down the most is that I can't really see how after doing RTK that will help me learn on-yomi, kun-yomi, and really, the language itself. It is super helpful to actually be able to recognize and write Kanji confidently but I always think when I'm done, what am I going to do with just knowing single Kanji and not knowing compounds and the like./

You have to know single kanji to be able to learn the compounds, it's as simple as that. If there was a method to learn the compounds efficiently without knowing single kanji, we would all be doing it.

EratiK Wrote:

iamsymmetrical Wrote:The thing that brings me down the most is that I can't really see how after doing RTK that will help me learn on-yomi, kun-yomi, and really, the language itself. It is super helpful to actually be able to recognize and write Kanji confidently but I always think when I'm done, what am I going to do with just knowing single Kanji and not knowing compounds and the like./

You have to know single kanji to be able to learn the compounds, it's as simple as that. If there was a method to learn the compounds efficiently without knowing single kanji, we would all be doing it.

I think there might be miscommunication here, I might just be wrong. I think that they are concerned on how to learn the 音読み and 訓読み while using RTK to learn 漢字.

iamsymmetrical Wrote:Most of the vocab decks I see are all sentences and I see how that is good, but it's a little useless when you can't understand the sentence to begin with :/

Then you are getting ahead of yourself.
Go through something like Tae Kim, or a grammar book (slowly!!) and learn the rules of grammar. Do lots of practice. Build up your vocabulary with simple words. Then more and more sentences should start to make more and more sense.

zachandhobbes Wrote:eh, I don't recommend AJATT for a beginner.

I remember looking at it and being extremely overwhelmed, despite not really learning anything new about Japanese.

AJATT does work, but a lot of people take it too litearlly. Even I did, it did work out for me but that's because I was extreme back then and still am lol. But overall, if you take his advice in moderation, you will exceed your own expectations. It's all about setting small goals and accomplishing them.

EratiK Wrote:

iamsymmetrical Wrote:The thing that brings me down the most is that I can't really see how after doing RTK that will help me learn on-yomi, kun-yomi, and really, the language itself. It is super helpful to actually be able to recognize and write Kanji confidently but I always think when I'm done, what am I going to do with just knowing single Kanji and not knowing compounds and the like./

You have to know single kanji to be able to learn the compounds, it's as simple as that. If there was a method to learn the compounds efficiently without knowing single kanji, we would all be doing it.

A lot of people who don't do RTK claim that it's effective to just brutally learn words as they are, and then eventually having the kanji "come to you". That's basically seeing the characters as phonetic symbols and ignoring studying them in isolation.

I think if you spend too much time doing nothing but RTK, the argument that that time could have been better spent accumulating vocabulary has some logic. TS, I personally think you should focus on getting RTK1 out of the way quick, and then just start learning words (core, sentence mining, anything) and read a lot.

The more words and readings we learn, the easier the rest will be coming.

Ahaha I'm taking everything at a good speed, but I think about the future a bit too much. I have Kotoba on my iPhone and it's really great, and I have Tae Kim on there too so when I get ridiculously clueless "reading" native material I can refer to them a lot easier than on the computer. I actually used Rikaichan before to make a deck from うみねこのなく頃に EP4 by linking AGTH to the visual novel so I can copy and paste the interesting and useful vocab/sentences. I've read AJATT before and it did help me. One little problem with studying is that I'm a junior in high school so I have to balance Chemistry, Analysis, English, Political Science, Economics, Music Theory, and practicing clarinet with Japanese on my own time. Thankfully I don't take French anymore. I use Anki for SAT vocab too. I know for a fact that I'll give up some of my free time to study Japanese as much as possible, since I think it's more fun than some of my other hobbies. I'm going to ask my guidance counselor in the middle of the year or so if passing a JLPT level and presenting the certificate to the school will add that to my transcript. If so, it would look REALLY good that I did something pretty ambitious on my free time. For a couple years I was trying to get myself to learn Japanese but I didn't know any resources at the time. Aaaaand I was terrified of Kanji. I'm pretty thankful that うみねこのなく頃に and Key's Rewrite motivated me to really get serious :D I'm not really the type who wants to learn SOLELY to be able to read literature/manga, be able to understand what they're saying in anime, and play video games/visual novels... I just really think Japanese culture and history is really interesting. Ever since I was maybe... 9 one of my goals in life was to travel to Japan at least once... I still have that as one of my biggest goal. Hopefully sometime in college I would be able to study abroad in Japan

Haha, you really do seem to think a bit too much But it sounds like you're really on it, damn it! Don't worry about the readings or your decks, it should work out as long as you keep that interest and exposure up and keep at it.

What I've noticed with learners is: they are really different. Some can handle learning Jp for years while some, just give up and go onto something else(and some label it as impossible to learn for a non-asian). I've learned that it's not all about the methods, but more about keeping yourself interested in it. People assume that if they don't put in enough time they won't get anything out of it. Don't think of it like that, make it fun and enjoyable, then you will blaze through jp learning like nothing. Plus, you will keep coming back and back

My initial goal for Japanese was to reach mastery level (whatever that means). I've learned, it's all about setting small goals and accomplishing them. Then once you keep setting more goals and more goals, guess what? You'll be reaching your main goal(fluency,etc) in no time.

ta12121 Wrote:AJATT does work, but a lot of people take it too litearlly. Even I did, it did work out for me but that's because I was extreme back then and still am lol. .

This.

I find this was my experience too.

In terms of learning to read - I recommend a post-RTK path of Tae Kim then core2000 followed by vocab building. Also use the Japanese dictionary of grammar deck and study up to JLPT2 level grammar (unsuspend 3 - 5 sententences per point). For vocab, do like someone already mentioned - rikai-chan plus the 's' feature. In shared decks there is a deck set up for that format just search rikaichan n u should find it.

ta12121 Wrote:

zachandhobbes Wrote:eh, I don't recommend AJATT for a beginner.

I remember looking at it and being extremely overwhelmed, despite not really learning anything new about Japanese.

AJATT does work, but a lot of people take it too litearlly. Even I did, it did work out for me but that's because I was extreme back then and still am lol. But overall, if you take his advice in moderation, you will exceed your own expectations. It's all about setting small goals and accomplishing them.

I don't disagree that AJATT may work, I just think it's a bad approach.

Listening to Utada Hikaru and using chopsticks did absolutely nothing for my Japanese ability, not to mention that I already did both of those things before I even decided to learn Japanese.

The whole "immerse yourself in shit you don't know" tactic just doesn't work. the i+1 (or whatever) is way more efficient and you'll see results much faster which motivates you to go even further. At least for me.

iamsymmetrical Wrote:I'm not really the type who wants to learn SOLELY to be able to read literature/manga, be able to understand what they're saying in anime, and play video games/visual novels... I just really think Japanese culture and history is really interesting.

Not that there's anything wrong with the typical Japanese learner who likes manga/anime/games. =)

I feel like the more I learn about Japanese culture and history the less interested I become and the more I tilt towards entertainment.

zachandhobbes Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

zachandhobbes Wrote:eh, I don't recommend AJATT for a beginner.

I remember looking at it and being extremely overwhelmed, despite not really learning anything new about Japanese.

AJATT does work, but a lot of people take it too litearlly. Even I did, it did work out for me but that's because I was extreme back then and still am lol. But overall, if you take his advice in moderation, you will exceed your own expectations. It's all about setting small goals and accomplishing them.

I don't disagree that AJATT may work, I just think it's a bad approach.

Listening to Utada Hikaru and using chopsticks did absolutely nothing for my Japanese ability, not to mention that I already did both of those things before I even decided to learn Japanese.

The whole "immerse yourself in shit you don't know" tactic just doesn't work. the i+1 (or whatever) is way more efficient and you'll see results much faster which motivates you to go even further. At least for me.

I agree but a lot of what he says makes sense, immerse even while you don't understand. Get yourself used to what Japanese people do and get used to the text,listening,kanji,etc. It makes sense but I now some people don't always succeed for this type of method(since it's extreme for beginners). But I believe it usual gears towards the intense language learner or at least the passionate language learners. I basically don't look at AJATT much anymore but I do respect him. He's site helped me, motivated me and now I have complete confidence I can gain all the skills I desire.

kainzero Wrote:

iamsymmetrical Wrote:I'm not really the type who wants to learn SOLELY to be able to read literature/manga, be able to understand what they're saying in anime, and play video games/visual novels... I just really think Japanese culture and history is really interesting.

Not that there's anything wrong with the typical Japanese learner who likes manga/anime/games. =)

I feel like the more I learn about Japanese culture and history the less interested I become and the more I tilt towards entertainment.

that happened to me recently, it really comes down to immersing in different material. And broadening your knowledge.

zachandhobbes Wrote:The whole "immerse yourself in shit you don't know" tactic just doesn't work. the i+1 (or whatever) is way more efficient and you'll see results much faster which motivates you to go even further. At least for me.

I think the two work best together in combination. Remember the experiment the guy did just listening to Chinese to see where he'd get after 2 years? He could barely do jack. So clearly JUST immersion is not the key. However, just i+1 won't get you native level fluency either. Both in combination provides - the efficiency the i+1 methodology brings and the immersion provides you with opportunities to realise that learning that has been taking place and prime you for further learning.

I've just started studying Korean recently and I'm doing i+1 and immersion (I presumed that's what the AJATT method was anyway as opposed to just solely immersion) and I've been watching a drama which I understand about 0.2% of and whilst doing so I keep noticing words, patterns that I don't know what they are but they start to stick out at me. Then today when I was doing my i+1 component through a brilllllliant deck I acquired, one of the words that I had been noticing came up... at first I didn't recognise it but then I clicked and it made sense to me the way the characters in the show had used it. I was able to get this word and learn it on a deeper level. In addition to that, the stuff I learned today, when I watch the next episode I will be able to understand more.

It's a reciprocal thing. One without the other isn't all that great but together they are amazing.

mezbup Wrote:

zachandhobbes Wrote:The whole "immerse yourself in shit you don't know" tactic just doesn't work. the i+1 (or whatever) is way more efficient and you'll see results much faster which motivates you to go even further. At least for me.

I think the two work best together in combination. Remember the experiment the guy did just listening to Chinese to see where he'd get after 2 years? He could barely do jack. So clearly JUST immersion is not the key. However, just i+1 won't get you native level fluency either. Both in combination provides - the efficiency the i+1 methodology brings and the immersion provides you with opportunities to realise that learning that has been taking place and prime you for further learning.

I've just started studying Korean recently and I'm doing i+1 and immersion (I presumed that's what the AJATT method was anyway as opposed to just solely immersion) and I've been watching a drama which I understand about 0.2% of and whilst doing so I keep noticing words, patterns that I don't know what they are but they start to stick out at me. Then today when I was doing my i+1 component through a brilllllliant deck I acquired, one of the words that I had been noticing came up... at first I didn't recognise it but then I clicked and it made sense to me the way the characters in the show had used it. I was able to get this word and learn it on a deeper level. In addition to that, the stuff I learned today, when I watch the next episode I will be able to understand more.

It's a reciprocal thing. One without the other isn't all that great but together they are amazing.

Both together are a solid combination for reaching a fluent level and beyond.

Totally agree with mezbup. You need knowledge(words and very occasionally grammar) and practice(listening/reading/speaking). Immersion alone isn't enough to learn the former unless you're prepared to take a veeeeerrrrry long time.

nadiatims Wrote:Totally agree with mezbup. You need knowledge(words and very occasionally grammar) and practice(listening/reading/speaking). Immersion alone isn't enough to learn the former unless you're prepared to take a veeeeerrrrry long time.

It speeds up the process of learning times 3. You associate it with the written text of the language and you associate it with sound. So you get reading,listening,understanding of kanji. Plus it improves your internal language that is needed for native-level jp.