merlin.codex Wrote:Everyone could write pretty much whatever they want (or believe) in their own websites, so I'd like to make a similar...

Reality check!:

When you want to be polite, you can screw a lot of grammar like:
ex1:　～がありましたので、～
ex2:　～がありまして、～
.
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And sometimes even if you're not:
ex36673: 普通にやる
... and so on...

And I've yet to see a textbook where the upper examples and ～くありません are considered correct, even if they are used quite occasionally.

The politicians speak quite grammatically incorrect but noone gives a damn, btw.

What's your source for those examples being grammatically incorrect?

Just horrified to imagine a similar thread about English grammar on some Japanese website somewhere...

mizunooto Wrote:Just horrified to imagine a similar thread about English grammar on some Japanese website somewhere...

From what I've been hearing, they spend all their time sniping at people who correct a lot on Lang-8 rather than actually learning. =)

Tori-kun Wrote:高かったんですので、・・・ is grammatically incorrect therefore, isn't it? I would rather say like 【理由】、高かったんです。

well, yes, it is incorrect because it is redundant but even more, 高かったんです already expresses the reason so 【理由】、高かったんです wont be the case either. Actually there are different ways to explain something so depending on how you do it, you can use んだ or other expressions:

Because it was expensive, I didnt buy it
高かったから、買わなかった。
高かったので、買わなかった

Answering "why didnt you but it?: Because it was expensive
高かったんだ。
高かったから。

I didnt buy it. It is because it was expensive.
買わなかった。高かったんだよ。

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merlin.codex Wrote:fakewookie, it is a generally well-known grammar. You can find it in pretty much every textbook for beginners, in those for JLPT N5/N4 (or the old ones), etc...

fakewookie had asked what sources say those phrases are incorrect.

I think even a text as basic as TaeKim notes that polite form is sometimes used like that. I don't think I have any books saying that's incorrect. I suspect some beginner textbooks might just teach what's more common (plain form), but without stating that polite form is wrong.

Quote:I see... Well in that case, please tell me what the difference between ～がしたい and ～をしたい is? I can't seem to understand big_smile

And yeah, subjects usually don't become adjectives either. But then again, you have it in Japanese.

Wasn't sure if you were serious or not here. If you were being serious, please explain what you mean. I'm curious. It's my favourite topic. ;-)

edit: fixed polite/plain form

I never use くありませんでした for adjectives - it's too much of a mouthful and plus I never really heard anyone use it that much. I just use くないです。 Though if it is for a verb, I might use it eg　行きませんでした。

SendaiDan Wrote:I never use くありませんでした for adjectives - it's too much of a mouthful and plus I never really heard anyone use it that much. I just use くないです。 Though if it is for a verb, I might use it eg　行きませんでした。

くありませんでした and くないです are not the same, since the first is in past. Of course, the 'alternative yet formal' version of くありません is くないです, which is correct because you are simply adding です to an adjective to make it polite. However, in past tense, くありませんでした does not have alternative version. The informal version is simply くなかった　but this CANNOT be made polite with です　(i.e., you cannot say くなかったです)

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merlin.codex Wrote:～をしたい emphasizes on the action alone since the verb remains a verb. Verbs are always preceded by 「を」...

If you really think that, then you have a pretty warped understanding of Japanese grammar.

Interesting. I was always taught that nai was an adjectival, and nai/nakatta desu is fine. It's certainly used that way, so in the end, it's fine for us to use, IMO.

What are called "い adjectives" in grammar books for foreigners are not actually adjectives. They are a class of verb with different conjugation rules. The closest Japanese gets to having adjectives (in the english sense) are the so called な adjectives (eg きれい). Note, even these な adjectives can't be used like in english and placed alone in front of nouns. Only verbs can be placed in front of nouns in Japanese which is why you have to use the な (a form of the copula, ie a verb).
When you make the negative form of a い verb, you actually change it to an adverb that modifies the verb ない (to not be). 高い(verb) -> 高く(adverb)ない(verb).-> to not be highly -> to not be high.
This is kind of opposite of what happens in English. When you make the negative in English the verb stays a verb and you add the adverb 'not'. "is(verb) high(adjective)" -> "is (verb) not(adverb) high(adjective)."

Anyway the です in ないです is technically reductant because the verb is implicit in ない, but it's used for the nuance of politeness.

There's lots of, umm, weird grammar advice in this thread, haha.

Na adjectives are actually nouns and many nouns are just conjugated verbs (so an adjective might really be a noun which is really a verb) etc etc.

Western grammatical concepts don't really mesh well with Japanese. There are no nouns, verbs or adjectives, just "conjugable", "non-conjugable".

I hear your mother meshes pretty well with western grammatical concepts...

Me and your mother were having conjugable relations all last night.

Stop going so off topic! Comments about people's mothers are totally unacceptable! Why are you guys so mean? You're all bakas! I QUIT!

gesserit Wrote:

SendaiDan Wrote:I never use くありませんでした for adjectives - it's too much of a mouthful and plus I never really heard anyone use it that much. I just use くないです。 Though if it is for a verb, I might use it eg　行きませんでした。

くありませんでした and くないです are not the same, since the first is in past. Of course, the 'alternative yet formal' version of くありません is くないです, which is correct because you are simply adding です to an adjective to make it polite. However, in past tense, くありませんでした does not have alternative version. The informal version is simply くなかった　but this CANNOT be made polite with です　(i.e., you cannot say くなかったです)

I know that. I just didn't want to type out くありませんでした、くありません、くなかったです、くないです, but you just made me in an attempt to show that I am not a completely stupid.

It is interesting that you say you can't use くなかったです. I'm quite sure I heard it said heaps of times by Japanese students while I was over there.

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SendaiDan Wrote:

gesserit Wrote:

SendaiDan Wrote:I never use くありませんでした for adjectives - it's too much of a mouthful and plus I never really heard anyone use it that much. I just use くないです。 Though if it is for a verb, I might use it eg　行きませんでした。

くありませんでした and くないです are not the same, since the first is in past. Of course, the 'alternative yet formal' version of くありません is くないです, which is correct because you are simply adding です to an adjective to make it polite. However, in past tense, くありませんでした does not have alternative version. The informal version is simply くなかった　but this CANNOT be made polite with です　(i.e., you cannot say くなかったです)

I know that. I just didn't want to type out くありませんでした、くありません、くなかったです、くないです, but you just made me in an attempt to show that I am not a completely stupid.

It is interesting that you say you can't use くなかったです. I'm quite sure I heard it said heaps of times by Japanese students while I was over there.

Well, chances are that those students actually said くなかったんです　or くなかったのです . Even more, considering that native speakers also have mistakes and bad habits, it wouldn't be advisable to argue that only because natives say it that way it is grammatically correct. My point on correcting you was that actually the original thread was dealing with past tense forms and I though it would be better not to mix them with the non-past forms.

zigmonty Wrote:Stop going so off topic! Comments about people's mothers are totally unacceptable! Why are you guys so mean? You're all bakas! I QUIT!

Not simply "idiots," but "bakas?" That's harsh, dude. Harsh.

merlin.codex Wrote:This topic was resolved a long time ago but anyway...

nadiatims Wrote:If you really think that, then you have a pretty warped understanding of Japanese grammar.

You aren't studying English, so it is natural to have a more "warped" understanding, is it not?

Except that when you said を always preceed verbs, that is wrong.

Quote:Verbs are always preceded by 「を」...

merlin.codex Wrote:Noone said you can't use ～くなかったです, SendaiDan. My posts were pretty much related to the assertion that there are still some officially unrecognized grammar rules and these "You are an idiot. I know better" types came into the discussion.

Yes they did......

gesserit Wrote:The informal version is simply くなかった　but this CANNOT be made polite with です　(i.e., you cannot say くなかったです)

merlin.codex Wrote:高くないです is grammatically correct and is considered to be polite. 高くありません is, on the other hand, considered to be more polite but irregular (that is, not officially recognized, as far as I recall). That, however, doesn't stop employees in various firms and stores to use it.

(Edited: Brain fart)

As far as I know, ありません is considered more standard than ないです, although ないです is not incorrect. To call 高くないです more grammatically correct than 高くありません is backwards.

(Edited: Brain fart)

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