So now that I've started on my quest to read lots more I've got a problem. Ordinarily I can just skip words I don't know when I read, and feel pretty satisfied with my own understanding. I would like to know these words I skip, but I really really hate breaking the flow when I'm reading. If I don't break the flow I can read pretty close to how fast I usually read things in English. That feels good. It keeps me interested in the story.

However, it's terrible for my studying. The material I read never has furigana. So I'm just never going to learn these words if I don't look them up at some point.

Is there a good way for me to keep track of these words to look up and SRS later? The only solution I've come up with so far is to just highlight stuff in the book as I go, and then mine all the highlighted vocabulary later. This feels really terrible, though.

I have Japanese friends or other friends that are studying that might want to borrow these books. Is there a non-destructive way that I can keep track of these words for later without destroying books in the process?

What does everyone else do? Do I just bite the bullet, and sacrifice a few books to the cause? I mean, realistically, after I finish the next 3-4 novels the number of words I'm highlighting should drop really dramatically. So this is only going to be a big problem for the next 3-6 months.

I use a folded slip of paper as a bookmark, and when I find a word whose reading I want to look up, I write it down. Then I look up their readings later when I have time.

How about doing that?

You could underline or circle them in pencil and then erase the pencil later. Or just have a notebook nearby.

I should have mentioned this, but the main problem here is that I tend to pretty much only read when I'm on trains. So it's kind of hard to write down words or kanji. I guess I could write down page and line numbers maybe...

The only barrier to this is that right now there's probably going to be like 10 words I need to look up per page, and I'd like to be able to do this quickly as I'm reading. The pencil idea seems best so far.

For reading practice I tend to lean towards sources that can be parsed with Rikai-sama...

it has features like showing an asterix when it finds a word that isn't in an anki file so you know whether it is an unknown word or not as well as the ability to save it for later.

Furthermore it can be linked with epwing dictionaries so you don't have to waste time looking up words.

maybe try to find a digital copy (html?) of the material you're trying to read?

erlog Wrote:The only barrier to this is that right now there's probably going to be like 10 words I need to look up per page, and I'd like to be able to do this quickly as I'm reading. The pencil idea seems best so far.

If it's that many, then maybe you shouldn't try to get all of them and just focus on the ones that you see multiple times. That's what I did when I was starting out with Chinese and it kept me from going insane.

If it's just one word every page or so, writing them down on trains shouldn't be that hard. I do it all the time.

midonnay Wrote:For reading practice I tend to lean towards sources that can be parsed with Rikai-sama...

it has features like showing an asterix when it finds a word that isn't in an anki file so you know whether it is an unknown word or not as well as the ability to save it for later.

Furthermore it can be linked with epwing dictionaries so you don't have to waste time looking up words.

maybe try to find a digital copy (html?) of the material you're trying to read?

The stuff I read isn't available in a form like that since it's just stuff I pick up off the shelf at Japanese book stores. I also hate rikaichan/kun/sama.

JimmySeal Wrote:

erlog Wrote:The only barrier to this is that right now there's probably going to be like 10 words I need to look up per page, and I'd like to be able to do this quickly as I'm reading. The pencil idea seems best so far.

If it's that many, then maybe you shouldn't try to get all of them and just focus on the ones that you see multiple times. That's what I did when I was starting out with Chinese and it kept me from going insane.

If it's just one word every page or so, writing them down on trains shouldn't be that hard. I do it all the time.

It's only that many because I'm counting words I don't know pronunciations for. In terms of words I don't know the meaning of it tends to only be like 3-4 per page.

erlog Wrote:The only barrier to this is that right now there's probably going to be like 10 words I need to look up per page, and I'd like to be able to do this quickly as I'm reading. The pencil idea seems best so far.

I'd recommend you don't worry about the words you come across while reading on the train and do separate intensive reading sessions. That's enough for you become familiar with the book's vocabulary.

I've been doing the 多読 thing for about a year now and my advise is don't sweat it. I've got a 電子辞書 with hand writing recognition (Ex-word) and if a word is really coming up a lot, or it seems like some plot point would become comprehensible I'll look up the word. Generally though I'm to lazy to stop for every word. And that seems to be fine. My reading ability continues to increase.

If it's something important it will come up again. You should have some alternative source for vocabulary study that you use in parallel (iknow, KO2001, Japanese wikipedia + Rikaisama) anyway. Read a lot, if something's hard or boring set it aside, focus on one genre/author at a time.

Frequently now the reason I stop reading to use a dictionary is to try guessing the reading/meaning of some unknown word. It seems like if you get far enough you really can start learning words from context...

I agree with splitting up extensive reading and intensive reading.

One of the main principles of extensive reading is to read books that are easy enough so that you don't need to use a dictionary. I know that it's really difficult to reach N1 level and be reading books for 3rd-4th graders, but reading a couple of children's chapter books has been one of the best things I've done for my reading ability.

But that's not really answering your question.

Anyway, I think the whole point of owning books is so that you can write in them. And then when you reread them much later, you see your annotations and fondly remember a time when you couldn't read as well...

erlog Wrote:It's only that many because I'm counting words I don't know pronunciations for. In terms of words I don't know the meaning of it tends to only be like 3-4 per page.

I thought that's what you meant and my point still stands. You don't have to learn to pronounce every word immediately. You can focus on the ones that come up more often than others, or the ones that seem important, and skip the infrequent ones. There will be plenty of time to learn those when the unknown words are coming up at a lower density. That should make it a more pleasant experience overall.

erlog Wrote:The stuff I read isn't available in a form like that since it's just stuff I pick up off the shelf at Japanese book stores. I also hate rikaichan/kun/sama.

I'm sure you can find a dodgy copy of Murakami or even harry potter (if you own the physical version then theres no harm done).

After a practise run with training wheels, you can then have a proper read using the hard copy.

midonnay Wrote:

erlog Wrote:The stuff I read isn't available in a form like that since it's just stuff I pick up off the shelf at Japanese book stores. I also hate rikaichan/kun/sama.

I'm sure you can find a dodgy copy of Murakami or even harry potter (if you own the physical version then theres no harm done).

After a practise run with training wheels, you can then have a proper read using the hard copy.

You can also try just finding a website that summarizes the book. Like cliff notes of some kind. They should have the overall gist of the story and the vocab most likely will be constant like in the physical book(s). From there you can look up the vocab you're having trouble with. Hope this helps

erlog, since you read on the train, the way I do reading won't work too well I guess. Usually I note words in an excel sheet or something because I'm usually near a computer. If I'm not near the computer I look it up in my electronic dictionary and make a "見出しメモ" and short hand the book name and page the word is on for that definition.

If you want to do it faster and don't mind ruining the resell value of the book.

User a highlighter.

Thanks for all the replies. My solution will be to just use a highlighter, and then buy another copy of the book or apologize profusely to the person I lend it to after.

I'm pretty much opposed to any of the suggestions that are going to slow things down or force me to read whatever I'm reading twice.

Some of you didn't quite understand my problem, but that's fine. I didn't explain it very well. I'm understanding the things I'm reading fine, and in the rare event I do get completely roadblocked I will look up a word or two on my phone. That hasn't happened to me in months, though.

I read quickly, and I understand better when I read quickly. I don't want to do anything to slow the process down because then it gets too boring for me to want to continue. The pace I'm moving at is finishing a decently-sized novel every 2 weeks or so. If I have slightly more time spent on trains then I could easily finish a novel in a week or a few days.

So it seems like my initial plan of just reading with a highlighter in my hand then mining the highlighted words later will probably be the best thing. I don't want the problem to happen with novels that previously happened with manga.

I got so good at reading manga that it really stopped being studying, and it took me a bit to notice it was happening. It just became normal entertainment, and I wasn't learning anything. Now the same thing is happening to be me with regular novels, and I want to make sure in the long term I'm picking up the bits I want to pick up while maintaining the entertainment value.

Fillanzea Wrote:I agree with splitting up extensive reading and intensive reading.

One of the main principles of extensive reading is to read books that are easy enough so that you don't need to use a dictionary. I know that it's really difficult to reach N1 level and be reading books for 3rd-4th graders, but reading a couple of children's chapter books has been one of the best things I've done for my reading ability.

Is there a good online source for this?

I found Japanese novels a little too difficult for me over a year ago when I was at my peak- now that my Japanese has deteriorated, I need something a bit more simple, but interesting. I read a lot of Fantasy novels in English, but in Japanese they tend to be way too hard with tons of strange words (it's likely the same in English, just that I'm used to it).

erlog Wrote:Thanks for all the replies. My solution will be to just use a highlighter, and then buy another copy of the book or apologize profusely to the person I lend it to after.

I'm pretty much opposed to any of the suggestions that are going to slow things down or force me to read whatever I'm reading twice.

Some of you didn't quite understand my problem, but that's fine. I didn't explain it very well. I'm understanding the things I'm reading fine, and in the rare event I do get completely roadblocked I will look up a word or two on my phone. That hasn't happened to me in months, though.

I read quickly, and I understand better when I read quickly. I don't want to do anything to slow the process down because then it gets too boring for me to want to continue. The pace I'm moving at is finishing a decently-sized novel every 2 weeks or so. If I have slightly more time spent on trains then I could easily finish a novel in a week or a few days.

So it seems like my initial plan of just reading with a highlighter in my hand then mining the highlighted words later will probably be the best thing. I don't want the problem to happen with novels that previously happened with manga.

I got so good at reading manga that it really stopped being studying, and it took me a bit to notice it was happening. It just became normal entertainment, and I wasn't learning anything. Now the same thing is happening to be me with regular novels, and I want to make sure in the long term I'm picking up the bits I want to pick up while maintaining the entertainment value.

http://chokochoko.wordpress.com/2009/09/...%e3%80%8f/

^That article has a good method of highlighting unknown vocab/grammar.

To save you some $ on buying 2 copies of the same book (or giving out apologies), you can use Pilot Frixion highlighters

http://www.jetpens.com/Pilot-FriXion-Lig...ers/ct/682

I've used them in the past for classes and for the most part does what it promises (let the ink dry before erasing or it will smear :O ). I only used them on worksheets and textbooks but not paper novels so I don't know how successful it will be

http://www.post-it.com/wps/portal/3M/en_...ML16SQP3bl

Just stick them right by the words...

captal Wrote:Is there a good online source for this?

I found Japanese novels a little too difficult for me over a year ago when I was at my peak- now that my Japanese has deteriorated, I need something a bit more simple, but interesting. I read a lot of Fantasy novels in English, but in Japanese they tend to be way too hard with tons of strange words (it's likely the same in English, just that I'm used to it).

I live close to a good Japanese bookstore, so I haven't really looked to see what's available as e-books or floating around in the ether. But for children's fantasy novels, I highly recommend the 獣の奏者 series.

The erasable highlighters might be awesome. I wonder if I can find those in Japan. I'd use them on my books then TOTALLY.

EDIT: SWEET. They do :o http://www.pilot.co.jp/products/pen/sign...xionlight/

vix86 Wrote:The erasable highlighters might be awesome. I wonder if I can find those in Japan. I'd use them on my books then TOTALLY.

EDIT: SWEET. They do :o http://www.pilot.co.jp/products/pen/sign...xionlight/

I was just about link that lol. Here is another link

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/bunbougu-shibuya/sfl-60sl-6c/

I wish they had the fine point erasable pens in the US stores. I only have the original 0.7 ballpoint. Oh well, the benefits of online shopping

My plan is to never do that style of reading ever again. I put together about a month where I was able to do it really solidly, but it's just too mind-numbing. I learn more vocabulary when I do that, but I understand less. For me the inertia of reading is really important, and looking up words just kills it.

[s0apgun]

You seem mad.

captal Wrote:Is there a good online source for this?

I found Japanese novels a little too difficult for me over a year ago when I was at my peak- now that my Japanese has deteriorated, I need something a bit more simple, but interesting. I read a lot of Fantasy novels in English, but in Japanese they tend to be way too hard with tons of strange words (it's likely the same in English, just that I'm used to it).

You could try reading the Aoi Tori Bunko books. Not too sure if there are e-books for them or not, but they're a great way to break into reading novels. Not to mention that you can read free previews of their novels on their website.
Two kids novels I've reading right now are 夢から醒めた夢 and 黒魔女さんが通る．　They're edutainment!

s0apgun Wrote:You seem mad.

Mad as in crazy or mad as in angry? I'm certain I'm not the latter, but I can't really be so sure about the former.

It's less that I'm mad, and more the feeling of deep despair that is awakened within me whenever I think about how terrible it was to never feel like I was making any progress because each page took like 15 minutes.