What do I do?
Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well, But I can hardly put a sentence together when it's time for me to actually say something!

How do you get better at speaking? any good resources? I can't go too japan for atleast another year or so, so that's out of the picture. what can I do?

watashi wa ganbarimasu. kedo sore wa muzukashii desu yo

Tasukete.

arigatou gozaimasu.

semperanimus Wrote:What do I do?
Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well, But I can hardly put a sentence together when it's time for me to actually say something!

How do you get better at speaking? any good resources? I can't go too japan for atleast another year or so, so that's out of the picture. what can I do?

watashi wa ganbarimasu. kedo sore wa muzukashii desu yo

Tasukete.

arigatou gozaimasu.

You need to speak the language as often as you can. Most Japanese learning resources are designed for speaking the language. Listen to the various advice that other users will present. Try as much different things that they suggest, to see which one best suits your study habits.

http://lang-8.com
Register. Now.

I find writing and reading easier than listening actually for some strange reason, hm..

Congratulations! You're perfectly normal.

To learn a skill, you must practice it. You can't learn to gold by watching it on TV, and you can't learn to speak a language simply by listening to it.

Go find a language partner.

"But I can't speak it yet!" Exactly. That's why you need one.

I signed up for lang8, seems like that will help with writing.
would any kind of output could help with speaking?
I need to find a language partner, but In my small town of 2000 I don't know a single other person who speaks or is learning the language.
my computer doesn't have a mic, but I could buy one if needed.

once again thanks, and your information is very helpful. I need all I can get.

Lang8 has a few groups where you can find someone online to talk to. If you buy a mic you can try finding someone on there.

Check this thread for suggestions of what sites to use.

But why is this?

I never speak English (no opportunities), and I've only written in English on the little essays we've had to do in English class (and I can guarantee that almost nothing of my English ability as a whole could really be attributed to those petty compulsory classes), and on some forums like these. Still, like everyone else in this country I've had most of my free time revolve around English stuff (any movies, TV, internet surfing, video games etc.) since I was 12 or something, and I've never noticed any problem to construct sentences for the levels I've been at throughout the years.

日本語では全く同じ感覚だよ。僕にはペラペラ状態はまだ遠いすぎるだけど、この一年くらいの文法規則なしの勉強で文章を作っていることがそれほど問題ない。それにしても僕は日本語で会話したことが全然ないだろう…

I know that many people say that they've studied for x amount of years and can understand x and y, but still can't construct sentences. I'm sorry for coming across as arrogant and a bragging douche for seemingly pretending like I know everything, but if that's the case then are you really used to the language? It's possible to be able to understand something in context, but do you get enough actual input to have those patterns establish in your brain?

I'm opening my mouth when I really don't need to right now, but I'm just asking questions.

You should learn kanji and kana while you're at it. ;p

@twomorecharecters I know 300 kanji, am doing rtk, I can construct sentences on paper, I listen to anime, play japanese video games watch japanese movies. The problem within me lies with speaking, I can understand words and phrases I hear and read, I just can't speak them quickly, it takes me a minute or two to form a complete sentence and be able to say it aloud... sorry If I confused you guys
everything is going good except my speaking ability.
with writing, listening, and reading for example, when I learn a new word I can suddenly pick it out of dialogs and papers, however forming a sentence in my mind and getting it off my tounge is a different matter.

That's not entirely uncommon, hell I struggle and I've been in Japan 11 months now. The only way is to practice, make some skype friends from language sites, find language classes at a university or school and see if there's a language buddy programme or something. I only wish i was as fluent in front of people as i am in my own head or talking to myself. Forcing yourself to talk is the only way, but you've only be studying 5 months, don't be that hard on yourself yet.

Wait till you're 2 years in like me.. and still start every sentence with "あの.." lol.

So it just takes time! Even if it is a long time for the pace of a conversation it's still natural for us as beginners to have it like this. We also want everything we say to be perfect and try to run through everything in our head to make sure. If what we want to say is just not there and doesn't come out as second-nature, we're not used to that pattern. We could understand it if we saw it, but we're not used to it.

I'd understand if you don't feel like listening to an old man rambling for a total of 30 minutes when it's not aimed directly at your problem of constructing sentences, but I think he has some good points in there (or outrageous statements if you will, it's all in opinion). At least the first one.

If I was you right now I wouldn't cater my time to try to "fix" this. I would let it fix itself by continuing to get used to the language before I expect to have full sentences flying out of my mouth in a similar way to my native language; without having to take all this time to think about what I'm saying.

I think the car analogy is kind of accurate: Driving a car perfectly does not mean taking deliberate time and thinking about everything you do with a complex thought process, it's just there and happens like second-nature. But how do you get to that point? You can study all the theory you want, but the first or second time you sit in front of the wheel you're inevitably going to be like that - you have to take more time than you should to think about what you do. It's only through getting used to what you're supposed to do that it becomes second-nature. With language learning, this means getting input - because no matter how much you speak you only use what you already know and what you guess is right anyway. Obviously it's great to speak a lot to native speakers, but then it's what they're saying, and the feedback that they give you on your mistakes and such that matter. Therefore, it's input.

Now obviously, being able to speak good (not stumbling, pronunciation etc.) needs speaking practice. Steve talked about that in one of those videos. But I think the actual constructing of sentences, linking the words together, thinking about how to put your thoughts into words in this language, that's the product of how well the patterns sit in your brain.

So in short, my opinion would be to let the speaking happen on it's own and come along when it's ready, and keep doing what you like to do to get a lot of input. But again, that's just my 2円. And people like Steve Kaufmann, Khatzumoto, and Stephen Krashen.

arigatou gozaimasu. I think your right, thinking back, I realize the things that can come too mind are the phrases and words I spent the most time with, like hiku and tasu from the Japanese lessons on math I listened too. the more you hear/see something, the quicker it comes off your tounge.

your 2円 are valuable.
now I have 二円たす二里

semperanimus Wrote:Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well

semperanimus Wrote:I know 300 kanji, am doing rtk

I am not trying to be mean, but you are probably overestimating your ability. There is no way you would be able to understand writing well with 300 Kanji and basic grammar. It's also very unlikely that you are able to understand speaking well after 5 months.

Production ability usually lacks behind recognition ability. However, I think you are unnecessary worried about not being able to speak only because you overestimate your ability to understand. Based on what you say you are at a level of about JLPT N4. It's normal that you can hardly speak/write at this point. To me your progress sounds very good and perfectly normal.

Just don't worry about it, it comes with time. I actually agree with TwoMoreCharacters. Before I came to Japan I *never* did active writing or speaking but I was at an level of about JLPT N2 for listening, reading, etc. Despite that I was able to express myself well rather quickly. If you can't produce than your recognition is not good enough either, both go together.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:But why is this?

I never speak English (no opportunities), and I've only written in English on the little essays we've had to do in English class (and I can guarantee that almost nothing of my English ability as a whole could really be attributed to those petty compulsory classes), and on some forums like these. Still, like everyone else in this country I've had most of my free time revolve around English stuff (any movies, TV, internet surfing, video games etc.) since I was 12 or something, and I've never noticed any problem to construct sentences for the levels I've been at throughout the years.

日本語では全く同じ感覚だよ。僕にはペラペラ状態はまだ遠いすぎるだけど、この一年くらいの文法規則なしの勉強で文章を作っていることがそれほど問題ない。それにしても僕は日本語で会話したことが全然ないだろう…

I know that many people say that they've studied for x amount of years and can understand x and y, but still can't construct sentences. I'm sorry for coming across as arrogant and a bragging douche for seemingly pretending like I know everything, but if that's the case then are you really used to the language? It's possible to be able to understand something in context, but do you get enough actual input to have those patterns establish in your brain?

I'm opening my mouth when I really don't need to right now, but I'm just asking questions.

I completely agree with this person. I've rarely had any chances in my life to speak English at length, but I can form sentences fluently even though I never consciously practiced at doing so, it just came naturally after tons of exposure. Of course I don't think conscious effort at forming Japanese sentences is a waste of time, but I think that forcing it when you barely have enough vocab to understand the average Japanese conversation is counterproductive and will just frustrate you. How can you be expected to have a conversation if you can't even understand the response? I tend to agree with AJATT here, if you reach a high level of understanding the ability to form sentences will naturally come, after all I can't even remember a time I struggled with forming a grammatically correct natural sounding English sentences, and I never actually worked at it, it was attained completely by exposure. I don't see why it should be any different with Japanese.

You should try to watch some Japanese TV dramas at d-addicts.com
The recent shows now have Japanese subtitles (and they are EXACT
transcriptions of what the actors are saying). If you haven't started/finished
RTK, you should.

If you start trying to make sentences on your own in isolation, you
run the risk of making "western-style" sentences. Your japanese
sentences might be grammatically correctly, but native japanese
would never speak that way.

Beginner/intermediate tend to make many unnatural (but grammatically
correct) sentences.

The answer is to listen to native japanese speak and try to copy/imitate
their manner of speaking.

For a long time, I didn't have any japanese friends and just relied on TV dramas.
When I finally started making japanese friends, instead of the standard "your japanese is good" comment, I would get "you really speak like a japanese person".

Good luck.

For the time being I've decided, while practicing writing and speaking, just too take sentence structures I have heard or read and replacing a word or two.
e.g. minasan, kokuban o miite kudasai. everybody, please look at the black board.
I would take then and replace the object.
inu o mite kudasai. kawaii desu.

I figure, that like you guys are saying, the more I listen and re-listen too Japanese sentence constructions, the smoother my sentences will be.

Kuma01 Wrote:I am not trying to be mean, but you are probably overestimating your ability. There is no way you would be able to understand writing well with 300 Kanji and basic grammar. It's also very unlikely that you are able to understand speaking well after 5 months.

I spent the entire summer focused on Japanese. that would be 5+ hours a day for more than 90% of the days. not like studying in a class an hour a day a few days a week.
I also happened to stumble upon a ton of great resources and stuff.
also let me clarify something else.
I can't write 300 Kanji in a correct sentence, I only know how too write out/recognize most of those kanji. Just as far as rtk1 took them. there are maybe 40 kanji I know at least 1 reading for. If I see an rtk kanji when watching an anime theme song, with Japanese subtitles, for example, then I'll rewind and listen a few times and look it up in a dictionairy
when I say I can understand listening/reading well, I mean that if I had learned the word, I could understand it when it was spoken, however It wouldn't come too mind quickly when trying to think of a sentence.

not saying that besides speaking Im a genius and can comprehend everything. I'm just trying to say that I can comprehend things that I can't say. but I'm realizing that speaking comes with review. thanks to you guys.

semperanimus Wrote:I can't go too japan for atleast another year or so, so that's out of the picture.
I spent the most time with, like hiku and tasu from the Japanese lessons on math I listened too.
For the time being I've decided, while practicing writing and speaking, just too take sentence structures I have heard or read and replacing a word or two.
I figure, that like you guys are saying, the more I listen and re-listen too Japanese sentence constructions, the smoother my sentences will be.
I only know how too write out/recognize most of those kanji.
It wouldn't come too mind quickly when trying to think of a sentence.

For the love of god, the word is "to."

Regarding your Japanese speaking, just give it time. It's just silly when people come to some forum lamenting that they're not a pro after a whopping five months. Learning any language takes time. You seem to be going at learning Japanese full force, so just keep it up and you'll be fine.

semperanimus Wrote:[...] when I say I can understand listening/reading well, I mean that if I had learned the word, I could understand it when it was spoken, however It wouldn't come too mind quickly when trying to think of a sentence.

not saying that besides speaking Im a genius and can comprehend everything. I'm just trying to say that I can comprehend things that I can't say. but I'm realizing that speaking comes with review. thanks to you guys.

The fact that we can understand and comprehend more than we can say will always be the case. It's the passive vs. the active.

You have the passive vocabulary, which is all the words you understand when you hear/see them, but don't come to mind when you speak/write. The active vocabulary is just that, all the words we use when we produce.

The passive always outdoes the active. But eventually you'll convert enough of the passive stuff over so that it won't be a problem.

http://www.antimoon.com/other/activevocab.htm

TL;DR

Seriously, 5 months isn't nearly enough time to have you speaking very well at all. Just study with the top down approach of learning to understand Japanese as much as possible and then start to speak from there. I started speaking after about a year of learning and I was bad at it. My second year I learned 10,000 in that year and by the end of it I could speak with fluency. So... 2 years for any kind of ability that could be called satisfactory to some level.

It's going to take you a long time, just be patient. I think practice is important too but learning to understand Japanese (understand grammar and build big vocab) is 10x more important. Once you have that THEN the time you spend practicing speaking will be extremely beneficial.

You still have 1 more year not in Japan. You should see this as a blessing I think. You can study in an environment of no pressure. I've never lived in Japan but speak it fluently, you don't NEED to live in a country to learn the language. So what you have is essentially 1 year to learn to understand as much Jap as possible that way when you go over there you'll be able to get the most out of it. I think the biggest mistake people make is going to a country to learn a language with zero knowledge and thinking they're going to anything out of it. Before you go, understand as much as possible.

I'll share my story with you, I've been learning jp for almost 2 years now(it will be 2 years this September). I was forcing myself to be able to read/listen/speak/write fluently by the 1 year mark. I learned it doesn't work that way, it takes time to get good at another language, so give yourself a lot of time to get good at it. Personally I wondered if I'd ever get good at listening/reading, since those skills are vital in the beginning. But now I know I have advanced reading/listening skills in jp(after studying for 1.5 years). And yet my speaking/writing are bad. What I'm trying to say is: you will suck in the beginning but if you keep at it, you'll own it. It all comes down to putting in the time.

Personally if I knew what I was doing back when I started, 1 year is enough to gain advanced reading/listening skills in Japanese. And another year to get speaking at advanced level. That's 3/4 skills which isn't bad in 2 years. But then again, this is just speculation on my end(based on my progress). But I do believe 3 years is enough to reach fluency in all skills(if one knows and are willing to put in the time)

Just 2 stupid cents (well maybe even less compared to what other people have added)

俺 doesn't go well at all with 丁寧語.

semperanimus Wrote:What do I do?
Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well, But I can hardly put a sentence together when it's time for me to actually say something!

How do you get better at speaking? any good resources? I can't go too japan for atleast another year or so, so that's out of the picture. what can I do?

watashi wa ganbarimasu. kedo sore wa muzukashii desu yo

Tasukete.

arigatou gozaimasu.

I know why, your listening isn't good enough.

How often do you listen to Japanese? How often do you read Japanese??

Watch any Japanese video on youtube, how much can you understand??

10%?
20%?

If it's not anywhere around 90-100%...you're speaking won't be good. Period.

semperanimus Wrote:I spent the entire summer focused on Japanese. that would be 5+ hours a day for more than 90% of the days. not like studying in a class an hour a day a few days a week.
I also happened to stumble upon a ton of great resources and stuff.
also let me clarify something else.

You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

Buy a Japanese novel in a subject you're interested in (anime light novel, crime, detective...whatever)...and read a page a day. It will be hard at first. Then in a month, you will move up to 2 pages a day, and then 3, 4, 10.....

this is a great way to learn lots and lots and lots of vocab, and actually remember them.

Of course, if you have no money to buy a novel or think it's too much of a hassel.

Then you can always read Japanese websites...same thing really....I recommend Japanese BBS....again, tons of vocab you can learn (and some slang too)...

nest0r Wrote:You should learn kanji and kana while you're at it. ;p

Yeah, I would agree with nest0r. In fact, I just hate seeing romaji.

Realism Wrote:You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.