Tzadeck Wrote:

Realism Wrote:You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

This.

Seriously, start with articles cos they're short and even if they have a tonne of words you don't understand you can still make it through the entire thing.

Tzadeck Wrote:

Realism Wrote:You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

What about the one laced with 振り仮名.

semperanimus Wrote:What do I do?
Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well,

No, you can't.

I'm sorry, but I see no other way to answer this than by being blunt (and perhaps presumptuous).

You are either overestimating your level or you aren't exposing yourself to real material.

Basically, you don't know enough yet to realize all the things you don't know.

If you made a similar claim about, say, Dutch, I *might* have given you the benefit of the doubt, but since Japanese takes 3-4 times longer to learn, you are essentially claiming that you have the skills to learn to understand spoken and written Dutch well in a month and a half. I wouldn't claim that much myself and Japanese is my 12th language.

Others have mentioned that you need a language partner, and I fully agree. You need to speak as much as you can, as often as you can, including in self-talk -- there is no other way to speak better than to speak more.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:But why is this?

I never speak English (no opportunities), and I've only written in English on the little essays we've had to do in English class (and I can guarantee that almost nothing of my English ability as a whole could really be attributed to those petty compulsory classes), and on some forums like these. Still, like everyone else in this country I've had most of my free time revolve around English stuff (any movies, TV, internet surfing, video games etc.) since I was 12 or something, and I've never noticed any problem to construct sentences for the levels I've been at throughout the years.

You've been studying Japanese for more than 5 months yourself; are you really that comfortable orally?

mezbup Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:

Realism Wrote:You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

This.

Seriously, start with articles cos they're short and even if they have a tonne of words you don't understand you can still make it through the entire thing.

Really...bad advice??

You can read short articles but you can't read a novel??

A short article is what....1-2 pages in a novel right?

You're telling me you can't even read 1 -2 pages a day??

Get outta here.

And by reading books, you learn kanji along the way anyways. So what the hell is the difference?

I think it's more that reading a book at 1-2 pages per day is a very slow way to read a book. It's like watching a film, one minute per day. How much of the plot will you really get, reading it that slowly? For me anyway it wouldn't be enjoyable.

Reading shorter articles seems more sensible as you can read and understand the whole thing in a much shorter period.

Also,

semperanimus Wrote:I can't write 300 Kanji in a correct sentence, I only know how too write out/recognize most of those kanji. Just as far as rtk1 took them. there are maybe 40 kanji I know at least 1 reading for.

@Realism, you mentioned reading your first novel after 4 years of univ Japanese classes. You claimed that reading a novel improved your Japanese more than those 4 years of classes. um..

Perhaps in offering this advice you're once again forgetting that those 4 years might have made some difference?

I'd also be skeptical of this rather authoritative sounding advice: ;-)

Realism Wrote:Watch any Japanese video on youtube, how much can you understand?? [...] If it's not anywhere around 90-100%...you're speaking won't be good. Period.

Thora Wrote:I'd also be skeptical of this rather authoritative sounding advice: ;-)

Realism Wrote:Watch any Japanese video on youtube, how much can you understand?? [...] If it's not anywhere around 90-100%...you're speaking won't be good. Period.

I agree with Thora. It certainly possible to speak rather comfortably in a social setting WAY before you are anywhere close to understanding 100% of a movie, for instance. Every day conversations are often much simpler than video recordings.

Omoishinji Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:

Realism Wrote:You're good enough to read an actual Japanese novel. Go ahead, try it. I promise you, your Japanese will improve by leaps and bounds.

This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

What about the one laced with 振り仮名.

It's best you test yourself via an srs(anki) and not get used to furigana. You want to have that ability to read well and even guess reading for certain kanji. The only furigana I see nowadays are in manga or for rare readings. Everything else I just test myself

AlexandreC Wrote:

Thora Wrote:I'd also be skeptical of this rather authoritative sounding advice: ;-)

Realism Wrote:Watch any Japanese video on youtube, how much can you understand?? [...] If it's not anywhere around 90-100%...you're speaking won't be good. Period.

I agree with Thora. It certainly possible to speak rather comfortably in a social setting WAY before you are anywhere close to understanding 100% of a movie, for instance. Every day conversations are often much simpler than video recordings.

In terms of speaking, most people can reach a fluent level of speaking without every laying a finger on the text of the language. So it's very possible to get good at speaking without being literate. But being literate makes your life easier, since you could easily search stuff in Japanese instead of focusing on audio only.

Text+audio+srs+immersion=success.

Realism Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

This.

Seriously, start with articles cos they're short and even if they have a tonne of words you don't understand you can still make it through the entire thing.

Really...bad advice??

You can read short articles but you can't read a novel??

A short article is what....1-2 pages in a novel right?

You're telling me you can't even read 1 -2 pages a day??

Get outta here.

And by reading books, you learn kanji along the way anyways. So what the hell is the difference?

When I read my first novel I'd been learning Japanese for a year and a half, had studied all the way up to JLPT2 grammar and knew 7000 vocab. I still found it incredibly difficult, tho I managed to finish it and learned 1000 words from it. Before that I read short articles all the time and if I had to do it all over again I'd do it exactly the same way. Articles are more level appropriate at that stage. What's important is being sure you can completely read through whatever it is that u are reading. A novel at 1 - 2 pages a day will take rough 4 months? In that time you could read several hundred articles. It's important in terms of reading comprehension to get the big picture of what a peice of writing is saying. Secondly most people would never make it through a novel at that pace - it's a gargantuan task anyway. A mere 5 months doesnt even begin to scratch the surface of Japanese deep enough to tackle the task, 4 years of classes certainly would.

Thora Wrote:Also,

semperanimus Wrote:I can't write 300 Kanji in a correct sentence, I only know how too write out/recognize most of those kanji. Just as far as rtk1 took them. there are maybe 40 kanji I know at least 1 reading for.

@Realism, you mentioned reading your first novel after 4 years of univ Japanese classes. You claimed that reading a novel improved your Japanese more than those 4 years of classes. um..

Perhaps in offering this advice you're once again forgetting that those 4 years might have made some difference?

I'd also be skeptical of this rather authoritative sounding advice: ;-)

Realism Wrote:Watch any Japanese video on youtube, how much can you understand?? [...] If it's not anywhere around 90-100%...you're speaking won't be good. Period.

First of all, I'm saying 1-2 pages a day.......that's it. And plus, a novel could be more "interesting" than a short article in a textbook or whatever.


And yes, you're right, I never read a Japanese novel my first 4 years taking Japanese classes. But that's because I never even thought about it. However, COULD I have read a novel my first year? I don't know. Maybe I could maybe I couldn't. It's impossible for me to answer that question. But I could have tried to read a novel and struggled with it. Reading it slowly sentence by sentence, looking up the plethora of words I didn't know. I'm sure that would have helped a lot than just....going to class everyday and zoning out (since there were those short articles in Genki textbooks, and I can read them just fine).

I would go for manga over however short articles, just my 2yens

If you're talking about whether it's a good idea to read a novel at this stage, there are a few basic questions that need to be considered.

1) Will reading a novel focus on the skills that are most needed at this stage in learning?
2) Is reading a novel an efficient way to learn at thie stage in learning?
3) How interesting will reading a novel be at this stage compared to other study methods?

The answer to the first question seems to be no. It seems like semperanimus is still a beginner grammar-wise, and needs reinforcement in this area.

Just from the title of this thread, you can find some concepts that are misunderstood. I'll give just one example: he wrote 'ore wa', and there are at least two things wrong with this. One problem is that the use of 'ore' is weird, since the sentence in -masu form, which is generally inappropriate with a casual and rough sounding pronoun like 'ore.' The second problem is that actually, even 'watashi wa' would be strange. Using a first person pronoun plus 'wa' is generally used to contrast yourself with someone else, but here there is nothing to contrast against. In English you have to start sentences with a subject, so you would need an 'I' here. But using a 'watashi wa' in Japanese is strange here--no subject is necessary.

Reading a novel does not focus on these skills. If someone explains to you the nuance of the 'ore', and that it shouldn't be used in polite conversation, it's very easy to remember and know that. If someone doesn't tell you something like that, it can take a long time for you to catch on to it by yourself. So a lot of the skills he needs to work on would be better addressed by a textbook or a grammar guide than by reading a lot.

This also answers number two, that reading a novel is not efficient at this stage. He needs a source that works more on the basics, and learning about the basics through a very advanced source is inefficient.

And the answer to the third question is no, a novel would not be interesting at all. He would be looking up more than 80% of the words on a page, even with a novel meant to be read by a ten year old. That's not interesting. It's tedious, borning, and demotivating.

Tzadeck Wrote:And the answer to the third question is no, a novel would not be interesting at all. He would be looking up more than 80% of the words on a page, even with a novel meant to be read by a ten year old. That's not interesting. It's tedious, borning, and demotivating.

Sadly, I think this is true. I think it's much more efficient and appropriate to start on light novels when you already have acquired an intermediate level vocabulary approaching 10,000 words (mezbup started reading novels at around ~7,000, and I myself am just now at that range) -- which given just 5 months of study isn't something I think is likely.

Tzadeck Wrote:If you're talking about whether it's a good idea to read a novel at this stage, there are a few basic questions that need to be considered.

1) Will reading a novel focus on the skills that are most needed at this stage in learning?
2) Is reading a novel an efficient way to learn at thie stage in learning?
3) How interesting will reading a novel be at this stage compared to other study methods?

The answer to the first question seems to be no. It seems like semperanimus is still a beginner grammar-wise, and needs reinforcement in this area.

...

This also answers number two, that reading a novel is not efficient at this stage. He needs a source that works more on the basics, and learning about the basics through a very advanced source is inefficient.

And the answer to the third question is no, a novel would not be interesting at all. He would be looking up more than 80% of the words on a page, even with a novel meant to be read by a ten year old. That's not interesting. It's tedious, borning, and demotivating.

Trying to read a Japanese novel, even knowing the most common readings of the first 2000 Kanji, would be a slow process. Depending on the level of student extremely difficult. However, this should not be the reason to take the engage in the process.

If the student has the motivation, time and resources they should do it. A book with Furigana would be very helpful. Juvenile and children books generally have Furigana for every word, so only the meaning of words. The student may have difficulties in reading the novel, but that is no reason to do it. There are obvious advantages in reading books.

The issues isn't what we find boring but what would be most interesting for the student. The goal is learning Japanese.

Reading a novel with generous helpings of furigana after 5 months of study is entirely reasonable if you:
-Have finished RTK
-Are receptive, open-minded, and therefore able to infer words' meanings from context
-Are not obsessed with understanding every word you see, and do not try to look up every unknown word

Most of the naysayers, I'd imagine, are under the impression that you have to know (or EEK! look up) all or most of the words in a text in order to get through it, and that simply isn't true. Even if you only understand only 20% on your first time through, there is still great value in the exercise.

Tzadeck Wrote:Just from the title of this thread, ... no subject is necessary.

Ok... so why does he need to learn or have learned that at this stage? Couldn't that always be addressed later?

ta12121212121 Wrote:It's best you test yourself via an srs(anki) and not get used to furigana. You want to have that ability to read well and even guess reading for certain kanji.

Why would reading something with furigana hamper your ability to read well and guess readings? Doesn't seem to be a problem for Japanese people.

AlexandreC Wrote:

semperanimus Wrote:What do I do?
Just realized after about 5 months of study, I can understand speaking and writing well,

No, you can't.

I'm sorry, but I see no other way to answer this than by being blunt (and perhaps presumptuous).

You are either overestimating your level or you aren't exposing yourself to real material.

Basically, you don't know enough yet to realize all the things you don't know.

This. After 5 months OP is not even approaching the tip of the reading iceberg (let alone listening), he's still in the port waiting for his Titanic to embark on his maiden voyage.

I just opened this months Jump and at two random pages (apart from names) I didn't remember/understand 5 words, that's a lot and I'm at 8.5k words and 2k kanji!!! If I had 2x as much words missed I'd understand shit from the story, can't imagine what kind of "understanding" semperanimus was talking about.

I slowly uncover where all those "success" stories come from, people who vastly overestimate their ability just because they could order dinner at a Japanese restaurant and tell the person sitting close it was おいしい. I'll be posting more on this subject in my Close Encounters thread soon.

JimmySeal Wrote:Most of the naysayers, I'd imagine, are under the impression that you have to know (or EEK! look up) all or most of the words in a text in order to get through it, and that simply isn't true. Even if you only understand only 20% on your first time through, there is still great value in the exercise.

Not at all it's just not efficient or sensible. In a novel you are actually going to have to understand most of it to have a clue what is going on, hence why I think the pictures in a manga are useful at this stage.

Although I disagree that you wouldn't pick up on the 'ore' thing from a novel... but that's assuming you're getting through the novel at a decent pace (which you wouldn't be with too small a vocabulary)

JimmySeal Wrote:

ta12121212121 Wrote:It's best you test yourself via an srs(anki) and not get used to furigana. You want to have that ability to read well and even guess reading for certain kanji.

Why would reading something with furigana hamper your ability to read well and guess readings? Doesn't seem to be a problem for Japanese people.

I actually used to hate furigana and go out of my way to avoid it. Now I see it as a blessing. It's totally awesome for upping your reading ability with very little effort. I'm fairly sure the ministry of education has done a lot of research and designed it that way.

I only realised it when I read 今、あいにゆきます。 which is an easy novel to read and it has some furigana here and there. Because it's aimed at a younger audience who aren't so proficient in reading just yet the furigana is given for stuff you're not likely to know at that level and then later on in the book it dissappears leaving you to read the word on your own. This is actually seriously conducive to learning if used in the right way as a stepping stone. It's no good if you rely on it 100% but right time, right place... it's brilliant and I wish i'd taken advantage of it sooner.

JimmySeal Wrote:Reading a novel with generous helpings of furigana after 5 months of study is entirely reasonable if you:
-Have finished RTK
-Are receptive, open-minded, and therefore able to infer words' meanings from context
-Are not obsessed with understanding every word you see, and do not try to look up every unknown word

Most of the naysayers, I'd imagine, are under the impression that you have to know (or EEK! look up) all or most of the words in a text in order to get through it, and that simply isn't true. Even if you only understand only 20% on your first time through, there is still great value in the exercise.

I would have been bored to tears trying to go through something where I only understood 20%.

Being receptive and open-minded doesn't help you figure out the meaning of words from context; you need to have some basic understanding of the grammar to be able to do that. Beginners, especially, tend to overestimate what they understand.

It's also a bit weird that you're calling the opposition naysayers JimmySeal, since the OP doesn't actually satisfy your own list of requirements--he hasn't finished RTK. Seems like by your own standards you should be recommending him to wait as well. I'm saying that he's not ready for a novel yet, and that seems to be what you're saying too.

thurd Wrote:I slowly uncover where all those "success" stories come from, people who vastly overestimate their ability just because they could order dinner at a Japanese restaurant and tell the person sitting close it was おいしい. I'll be posting more on this subject in my Close Encounters thread soon.

I indeed find a lot more success stories on this forum than I do in real life, including all my tutors' and teachers' experience with Japanese learners. My teachers may tell me I'm an exceptional learner, reading people's accounts on this forum makes me wonder if exceptional learners aren't a lot frequent than I thought...

However, people aren't to blame; it's actually really difficult to assess your own actual level if you haven't learned other languages before or you haven't been extensively exposed to real-life situations where you need to use the language.

To be honest you don't have to finish RTK to read a novel. To read a novel, and understand a novel "are not one in the same". You can read a novel with limited understand of it.

I don't know who it has been give the advice to continue to read an English novel if you encounter a word that you don't understand. This is the same for Japanese. As with English, Japanese novels are written with the intent to convey information with each word chosen. If you encounter a word that is unknown, it is possible to understand the meaning within the context that it is used. "To continue to read" is one of the most power advice that I remember that lead me to learn Japanese.

It is possible to use a novel to learn grammar, vocabulary. However, having dictionaries are important for any endeavour into learning a new language. As, stated before with limited vocabulary starting by reading a novel would be difficult.

@tokyostyle, The term "learn Japanese" is to understand Japanese within the context of the Japanese language.

ta12121 Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:This is basically the worst advice I've ever heard. Someone who knows 300 kanji is NOT ready for a novel.

What about the one laced with 振り仮名.

It's best you test yourself via an srs(anki) and not get used to furigana. You want to have that ability to read well and even guess reading for certain kanji. The only furigana I see nowadays are in manga or for rare readings. Everything else I just test myself

All 振り仮名 is small　ひらがな　to aid the reader for words that they might not know. This is entirely dependent on the level of the material that is written for. Yes, I to do guess words that I don't know, but I check a dictionary when I am not sure.