aphasiac Wrote:Interesting I remembered I had the same feeling when I saw this video of a Japanese girl speaking with a Northern-English accent. It's hilarious, a pure WOW moment and not sure why. Chinese-Brits are common, and many of them speak with various regional accents - so why is this video surprising?

I think it's because I associate the Nottingham accent and slang she uses with rough white Northern people - so having a Japanese student learn it breaks expectations and creates a weird (and funny) image. I'm guessing other Brits will on this forum will also find the vid delightful and be like :O, whilst Americans will be like "meh", kind of reinforcing the point.

I've seen this video before. Her pronunciation is very impressive - I'm not sure that I would be able to do that accent

A similar thing happened when I went to a movie theatre with friends in Sendai. The guy behind the counter spoke to us in a perfect British accent (like a news reader I guess). I would've loved to have seen the look on our faces. So either this guy grew up in the UK or he had lived there for a long long time. Even the Japanese friend that was with us spoke to him in English because she forgot that he was actually Japanese!!! That was pretty funny

I was poking around and watching NTKTV and watching NHK-E (since that's what they have for free) and when I found myself watching iCarly dubbed into Japanese I was reminded of this thread...

It does seem strange to -both- expect foreigners to have little ability to read Japanese, use chopsticks, etc, -and- expect them to be able to speak the language. But dubbed television does help set a false expectation - of course, if anyone stops to think, they -know- they are watching a dub, but it still simulates an experience of Westerners who speak Japanese perfectly without being able to do anything else that would be considered Japanese.

It's also -natural-, I think, to believe that the whole world can and does speak your language, maybe with a funny accent, but your language. For people that do -not- have the opportunity to travel internationally or have a strong interest in a foreign language or spend much time thinking about it at all, it's simply an unchallenged assumption that the language one speaks is the way people everywhere speak. Intellectually knowing that isn't true (as anyone with a high-school equivalent education in any first world nation must know) is not at all the same as -experiencing- it.

Certainly, I've known many Americans who showed every sign of believing that everyone in the world could understand English. (This also leads to the 'if I only speak louder and slower they'll understand' phenomenon... ) If I think back to my adolescent years, I can even recall a time when listening to people speak in a foreign language automatically seemed funny to me because it was as though they were just pretending to talk while making nonsense sounds. If you don't go to a major university or live in a metropolitan city or take a strong interest in a foreign language (all of which I've done, but I'm privileged that way) - well, that misconception would never be really broken.

I haven't been to Japan yet myself, but, I can't imagine that Japanese attitudes toward foreigners and their language are any more mistaken than most American attitudes. The only thing that might be different is that being a fairly isolated island nation and with a history of more severe isolationism, even their metropolitan areas might show naivete that would elsewhere be expected only in provincial areas.

('course America has the same problem relative to Europe, I believe, that I am postulating that Japan has relative to America. We Americans can easily be completely surrounded by English unless we live in a major metropolitan center, while I think Europeans need to be -quite- provincial to avoid real exposure to multiple languages.)

The short version - being -told- something is true and really -experiencing- it are different things, and nothing but enough experience stops people from holding multiple conflicting misconceptions.

The Manager of a hotel in Tokyo I stayed at spoke English just like Jackie Chan. It was really hard not to laugh!

aphasiac Wrote:Interesting I remembered I had the same feeling when I saw this video of a Japanese girl speaking with a Northern-English accent. It's hilarious, a pure WOW moment and not sure why. Chinese-Brits are common, and many of them speak with various regional accents - so why is this video surprising?

I've met a few Japanese people who've studied in the UK and ended up with regional accents. It seems that uni in a foreign country leads to kick arse language skills. Interesting thing is, this is 100% (or at least very close) immersion and doubt she was doing an SRSing etc. Where is Khatz's video like that? he's must have been in Japan about the same amount of time by now.

nadiatims Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:Interesting I remembered I had the same feeling when I saw this video of a Japanese girl speaking with a Northern-English accent. It's hilarious, a pure WOW moment and not sure why. Chinese-Brits are common, and many of them speak with various regional accents - so why is this video surprising?

I've met a few Japanese people who've studied in the UK and ended up with regional accents. It seems that uni in a foreign country leads to kick arse language skills. Interesting thing is, this is 100% (or at least very close) immersion and doubt she was doing an SRSing etc. Where is Khatz's video like that? he's must have been in Japan about the same amount of time by now.

According to his bio, he has been learning Japanese for 7.5 years and living in Japan for 6..

aphasiac Wrote:Interesting I remembered I had the same feeling when I saw this video of a Japanese girl speaking with a Northern-English accent. It's hilarious, a pure WOW moment and not sure why. Chinese-Brits are common, and many of them speak with various regional accents - so why is this video surprising?

Wow, cool video. Only the first minute was surprising, then you forget about the way she speaks (but I guess I don't have as strong associations as other people, being foreign and all; delightful video nonetheless). "I was pissed off" seems to have been a great motivational drive, lol. So few learners can deal with accents properly (I don't remember the numbers, but it's something below 10%), that you're bound to be surprised when you encounter one that does. I mean it's like your SRS leeches: you're supposed to have the minimum amount of exposure that ensures you'll learn the card, but for some data, minimum exposure is just not enough. You're surprised everytime. But that's not a bad thing per se, I like to be surprised.

aphasiac Wrote:Interesting I remembered I had the same feeling when I saw this video of a Japanese girl speaking with a Northern-English accent. It's hilarious, a pure WOW moment and not sure why. Chinese-Brits are common, and many of them speak with various regional accents - so why is this video surprising?

The guest was impressive, but the host couldn't pronounce "yokozuna." >_<

It's one thing to complain about people who underestimate your abilities, but isn't it just as common (if not more common, at least in my experience) for Japanese people to overestimate your abilities?

I know so many people who see me recognise a couple of kanji, are not surprised at all and just proceed to assume that I must be able to understand all written Japanese (probably including poetry from the Edo period or something).

I can understand how some people who are often confronted with this when meeting new people in Japan can get frustrated about it, but I honestly think they mean no harm by it. I mean think about it, it took them more than a decennium of drilling the kanji to be able to read most things. They most likely don't know about RtK or SrSing, so when they are confronted with some white guy that seems to have acquired the same skill in a fraction of the time they automatically leap to the conclusion that you're somehow special. Then there also the fact that most non-natives do indeed never properly learn Kanji at all, so in a way it's justified.

Some just don't realize a complement when they encounter one.

There are many people in Japan who utterly refuse to speak any Japanese, and expect to be spoken to in English. So, if a Japanese person tries to speak to you in English, first complement them on their English. Then speak to them in the language of your choice.

I remember getting a surprise response from an individual when he saw me studying Kanji, and I took it as a complement as that was it intended as. Another, episode was in a book store and spoken to the person for a short while (bad Japanese and all). Some should take as the experience it is meant to be, a chance to speak Japanese with a native speaker.

When someone complains about people saying "Wow, you can read Kanji." I think so you are being overly sensitive about a complement.

With errors in the Heisig keywords, I would say it is premature to exaggerate ones Japanese abilities.

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Certainly, I've known many Americans who showed every sign of believing that everyone in the world could understand English. (This also leads to the 'if I only speak louder and slower they'll understand' phenomenon... )

On the other hand, I'm listening to some podcasts to learn Japanese from native speakers, and the male voices could do with a little "slow down and stop mumbling" to enhance the learning experience. Some things that I thought were just grunts from the older Japanese guys were recorded in the transcript as actual words. That made it so tough to get a handle on the spoken language.

So 'louder and slower' is not always just being a jerk. It's not a bad idea, really.

Omoishinji Wrote:There are many people in Japan who utterly refuse to speak any Japanese, and expect to be spoken to in English. So, if a Japanese person tries to speak to you in English, first complement them on their English. Then speak to them in the language of your choice.

This person frustrates me yet I am also this person. Haha. K, well I live in Auckland, New Zealand, right in the city center where all the language schools are so there's a big population of whoever ud like to hang out with including Japanese. Now back a couple of years ago when I too was struggling to form sentences it made sense to talk to people in English where necessary. I've spoken jap fluently for about a year now so ever since then all communication takes place entirely in jap and I'm just not interested in conversing in English. Why? It's so slow and painful, Japanese is just much faster.

Despite this, lots of these people have come here to study English (I know, I get) so naturally they want to practice their English. Most people when they talk to me just kinda get it - I only do Japanese. Most if them are cool with it because we can connect and have engaging conversations and I make a lot of friends (serious Auckland central rocks). Then u get some people (lately one guy in particular) who know you speak it fluently and have no trouble communicating yet everytime they open their mouth to u it's... "ぁあ、アア ユウ ゴイング…ゴイング？ ぁあ、ゴイングツウ… ゴイングツウザア… ザア…コンサート？"

And I mean THAT painlful. On the flipside to them it's like Argh this guy just won't speak English to me. Iunno communication wise it just makes no sense to anymore. Tho I have 1 or 2 friends that live here long term and we speak in mostly Japanese but it doesnt bother me if we speak in English cos they're my good friends and they have Bo problems communicating in English.

I only reply in Japanese and if you are unlucky enough to get the guy who says "you're Japaniizu izu bery guddo" I usually just say thanks and walk off. Maybe I should say ur English is very good and THEN walk off.

Sounds like a dick move I know but in the past it felt like I was studying Japanese and because now I speak it fluently, most of my friends are Japanese, my flatmate is Japanese, it's the only tv I watch and the only music I listen to. I've just had so many conversations and experiences in the language that's it's not something I'm studying anymore (still learning/acquiring it) but to me it's part of my life. A huge part of my life, it's part of who I am. So the whole teach me English thing has been and gone as far ad I'm concerned.

Another that's annoying is getting asked all the "how do you say X in English". How many million times do I feel like answering that question? I never asked it in Japanese (maybe only a few times) cos I don't like being asked it in the first place. I always reply with "知らん" and they're like but ur a native speaker u must know! To which I reply yeah but when I speak/listen to Japanese I think in Japanese so 考えた事がない、しかも、考えたくない。

This is why I treasure my close friends. They just kinda get me.

mezbup Wrote:Then u get some people (lately one guy in particular) who know you speak it fluently and have no trouble communicating yet everytime they open their mouth to u it's... "ぁあ、アア ユウ ゴイング…ゴイング？ ぁあ、ゴイングツウ… ゴイングツウザア… ザア…コンサート？"

You're using the language that you're learning to speak to them, and you're complaining about them trying to do the same? Why is it wrong for them to want to practise their English, especially as they came all the way to New Zealand to do it?

My situation is the exact opposite because I'm Chinese.

I grew up in America and didn't bother learning Mandarin/Chinese growing up, although I did learn some basic phrases from my parents.

When people see me reading Japanese novels, they assume my Chinese background let me assimilate the written Japanese language that much easier.

Bullshit! I want the shock and awe that the OP (and others) get. I earned it.

fakewookie Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:Then u get some people (lately one guy in particular) who know you speak it fluently and have no trouble communicating yet everytime they open their mouth to u it's... "ぁあ、アア ユウ ゴイング…ゴイング？ ぁあ、ゴイングツウ… ゴイングツウザア… ザア…コンサート？"

You're using the language that you're learning to speak to them, and you're complaining about them trying to do the same? Why is it wrong for them to want to practise their English, especially as they came all the way to New Zealand to do it?

I'm complaining about being cannon fodder. It's about a difference in level - when ur starting out this is a non-issue, when you get to the point you forget you're even bilingual and you stop seeing people as a chance to practice and start to see them as regular people again... it begins to bug you. If they want to practice their English that's fine. Just not with me. Things always follow the path of least resistance and when they don't, then they're going against the grain. First time someone meets me if I get a "Nice to meet you my name is..." that's fine but the rest of the conversation and subsequent relationship if one develops, takes place in Japanese from there. It's when people choose to go against the grain deliberately it feels nasty. I'm not trying to be a dick it's just like someone trying to ride their skateboard on the freeway. Anyone who does it on purpose is gonna tick off the people in the fast lane - it's inevitable. It'd be like me trying to speak korean to the Korean kids at Auckland uni - they're English is good enough to study at university level, i'm pretty sure they would have zero tolerance for trying to converse with me in Korean. I totally get that.

Most people don't do it tho...it's just the few that do. Besides, there's a whole 4 something million people here that speak English AND don't speak Japanese. They'd be a better option for English practice.

Does it bug anyone else? Bugs me.

White People For Rent In China

mezbup Wrote:It's about a difference in level - when ur starting out this is a non-issue, when you get to the point you forget you're even bilingual and you stop seeing people as a chance to practice and start to see them as regular people again...

So in other words, use 'em and lose 'em, eh? You got what you want, so screw anyone who wants what you got.

Quote:If they want to practice their English that's fine. Just not with me.

How magnanimous of you.

Quote:Things always follow the path of least resistance and when they don't, then they're going against the grain.

That's what happens when someone is starting out with language learning. You think you've never "gone against the grain" talking to your Japanese acquaintances in Japanese?

Quote:I'm not trying to be a dick it's just like someone trying to ride their skateboard on the freeway.

No, it's more like someone seeking advice from a more experienced skater who is irritated at the very sight of a noob. The noob is not in the one in the wrong here.

Quote:It'd be like me trying to speak korean to the Korean kids at Auckland uni - they're English is good enough to study at university level, i'm pretty sure they would have zero tolerance for trying to converse with me in Korean.

Yes, maybe so. But if you were actually in Korea speaking Korean to someone who was fluent in English, it would be a different story. That is the analog to the situation you are describing.

Image a person has left their country to learn your language. They studied your language in their schools. They meet many patient native speakers who would speak with them no matter how poor their language skills were.

There is nothing unique about English speakers walking about from people because of ESL/EFL students limited communication skills. Some even walk away from those who are professionals. That is irrelevant if their nature language in Punjabi, German, Chinese or Japanese.

Honestly, they will move on and find someone with patience. Why should they be remotely patience with someone they believe that their Japanese is less that fluent. Especially when they aren't patience with them.

It isn't hard to understand someone when you are willing to try. Just like native speakers they will make mistakes. It is the listens responsibility to try to clarify things, or mentally rectify errors. That is all part of having a conversation.

People who mother tongue isn't English, are willing to speak with people in their native language. That is if they like you. If your skills are low, they will start with words.

It doesn't bug me. Life is the world's classroom.

suffah Wrote:My situation is the exact opposite because I'm Chinese.
Bullshit! I want the shock and awe that the OP (and others) get. I earned it.

Haha, we're in the same situation.

The other day in my Japanese class, I decided to do some RTK reps and pulled out some Genko Yoshi. My Japanese who is native Japanese, came up to me and asked "What's that? Are you practicing Chinese?". I literally facepalmed in my head. Then again, there it was a bunch of kanji on a sheet of Genko Yoshi, so to him, it might have looked like Chinese.

I have never had a bad experience with Japanese people as far as my reading level goes. It does surprise some because my conversation skills are still weak, but everyone I have encountered has been positive about my progress.

This thread all reminds me of my high school and college days when basketball was my first love. I would often go into black neighborhoods and join pickup games. For the first half hour or so, I caught all kinds of racist smack talk from the others, but that made the satisfaction of dunking on their asses inexpressibly satisfying. There is nothing like being underestimated and then dominating!

Was that before or after the orgies?

DevvaR Wrote:

suffah Wrote:My situation is the exact opposite because I'm Chinese.
Bullshit! I want the shock and awe that the OP (and others) get. I earned it.

Haha, we're in the same situation.

The other day in my Japanese class, I decided to do some RTK reps and pulled out some Genko Yoshi. My Japanese who is native Japanese, came up to me and asked "What's that? Are you practicing Chinese?". I literally facepalmed in my head. Then again, there it was a bunch of kanji on a sheet of Genko Yoshi, so to him, it might have looked like Chinese.

The paper is the same thing between both languages. This should be expected as Japanese is based on Chinese. Actually, there two ways of translating it on is 原稿 which is the same, and 稿纸. However, I would agree. Using essay paper to practicing Kanji would make some believe that you are writing Chinese.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Was that before or after the orgies?

As if you weren't attending orgies in college! :/

It is a little bit of a coincidence you mentioned that. I sent an email today requesting a segment Inside Edition did on me at a Tantric lovemaking workshop on Maui, Hawaii that aired Feb 2, 2000. I have been googling around trying to see if it is on the net, but no luck so far. If the show still has a copy of it for sell, I will upload it and post a link