#1
Yep, my turn to whine. SRS is bleeeeeeeding boring. Efficient perhaps, but bleeding boring. And when something is bleeding boring I just cannot do it, so right now SRS is the most inefficient method for me to learn/memorize/whatever (hello ~2500 due cards!).

Any other fancy method to learn vocabulary and enjoy the wonders of the Japanese language?

Oh, and sorry for creating a new topic about this. Already exists some tens of thousands of them, but this is -my- topic, so shoo shoo. x_x
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#2
Read something you like or want to read with a dictionary.
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#3
Look up painless srs on the forum.

Basically, make shorter, easier to answer cards and don't spend too much time thinking about the answer.

Essentially:
Change from sentence cards to vocab cards
Fail if you can't think of the answer within 3-5 seconds instead of laboring over it

Doing that, I can do 800-1000 cards per hour when studying on the train.

When I used to SRS at home, I would do it while watching videos (I watched all of Babylon5 while studying for JLPT2 way back in the day). Rigging up Anki to use a remote control makes this easier. It's slower since you are dividing your attention, but it makes it less of a chore.
Edited: 2011-08-10, 3:02 am
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#4
Yeah, I gave up doing SRS pretty much completely. I found it really boring. Now I use various other learning resources, but mostly I just read books (luckily I've been studying for a while so I was at a level where I could switch over to reading without too much trouble).
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#5
I also used to find srs reps boring, really boring. Then I just splitted my study throught the day.
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#6
So many suggestions in almost no time, thank you all.

I will certainly use the dictionary and book approach, as it's already crossed my mind.

Painless SRS you say? Babylon 5 sounds interesting too. Beware the shadows! But sure, I will look into it. So far, I've been able to like 300 cards / hour at max. Though getting beyond the first 20 cards seems to be impossible. I'll see if I can spread the workload throughout the day perhaps.

I will really invest more into reading books I guess. And visual novels as well.

Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
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#7
I found RtK and Core2K boring as hell to SRS. But since I switched over to sentences from my favorite TV shows with Subs2SRS & Morphology plugin, I actually find it quite fun. Since it's from context I get. And sentences with words not too far out of my comprehension. (It's just a pain to setup correctly the first time.)
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#8
Language has a breathing evolving life of its own and SRS is a cold callous mind numbing undertaking. I believe it to be a fad that will eventually die out as a language acquiring tool. It is fine for kanji or unconnected vocabulary for history or science, but not interdependent communication. Even if I am wrong, what a boring waste of one's life!
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#9
Personally I don't mind yomi-chan srsed stuff as the sentences can be quite interesting. I didn't start using srs until late in the day though so I don't know how I'd feel about using it early on in Japanese learning.
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#10
if you can find subs for anime/dorama/movies that you like, try making a Subs2SRS deck. I did one for my fav movie Akira when I was really green, and it was HARD... but bc I enjoyed the content so much it was really fun. I also learned a lot of really useful vocab for when recent news talks about 反政府分子 ;D
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#11
SRSing is essential, though you'll need it less the further along you are, so find ways to make it less boring. (I've never found it boring, I enjoy learning, plus its efficiency gives me time to do other stuff.) Like others have said, break up your study, make sure the cards you're doing aren't too hard (but not too easy, you want a medium difficulty [though of course this varies depending on material and how it's arranged on cards, and they get easier each successful rep]), try timeboxing (such as: http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/11/proc...-hack-1025), and keeping the cards connected to stuff you actually want to learn (e.g. Rikaisan-generated cards, subs2srs, or simply related as examples for whatever expository text you're using).

Spaced retrieval is so effective, so well-established, you can expect to see it integrated into pedagogy and learning materials with increasing dominance in the future, of that I am certain. I mean in addition to software, e.g. schedules and arrangement of materials. So get used to it. ;p

Another ineffective method that makes stuff boring is rote learning, mindless repetition, so try to be active and elaborate when you're learning new material in the SRS, such as relating the memory to previous knowledge/using multimedia/mnemonics/etc.
Edited: 2011-08-10, 11:57 am
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#12
I think you all speak the truth (mostly).

As bodhisamaya kindly points out, SRS has it's great advantages for kanji and unrelated vocabulary. Though I must disagree that SRS as a language learning tool will die out. On the contrary, I agree with nest0r that we will see more of it in the future. As a side note, I never had an issue with SRSing RTK. Great tool!

I've noticed that I enjoy using SRS for vocabulary if I can connect with previous experiences or put it into context. It also makes memorizing much easier. Indeed, from now on I will SRS some my favorite anime shows so that I can think of hot anime girls while doing vocabulary too. (Perhaps this is why RTK went so great..).


Thank you all for the input so far!
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#13
now now, not "essential".

(psst: If you come across as uber radical - even jokingly - folks might not take your info-packed posts seriously...which would be a pity as there's some great stuff there.) :-)
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#14
You're right Thora, what I meant was that it's so effective that to perform deliberate study of materials without spaced retrieval is foolhardy, almost deliberately ignorant. Of course, how much of your deliberately studied materials you SRS and what you combine it with is up to you. ;p It's not all-or-nothing, either/or. ^_^ Integrating it with non-SRS stuff is essential.
Edited: 2011-08-10, 6:46 pm
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#15
Learning unrelated vocabulary through SRS is fine, but you are taking something big out of the equation when you SRS language. I believe reading something new everyday gets the brain more excited about the process thereby improving memory. I have a collection of books and magazines with tens of thousands of sentences and phrases that I read an hour or two everyday so that I never have to read the same thing twice. Reading news transcripts from NHK or FNN is also fun. My two favorite books are 日常生活英語フレーズ9000 and 日常英会話5000. Though, they were both meant for learners of English. My reading and typing ability skyrocketed when I abandoned SRSing and adapted this approach. Admittedly, my spoken Japanese is still poor due to the fact I haven't been able to let go of the belief I had for decades that TV and movies make you stupid. I never even owned a TV in Hawaii.
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#16
paasan Wrote:I think you all speak the truth (mostly).

As bodhisamaya kindly points out, SRS has it's great advantages for kanji and unrelated vocabulary. Though I must disagree that SRS as a language learning tool will die out. On the contrary, I agree with nest0r that we will see more of it in the future. As a side note, I never had an issue with SRSing RTK. Great tool!

I've noticed that I enjoy using SRS for vocabulary if I can connect with previous experiences or put it into context. It also makes memorizing much easier. Indeed, from now on I will SRS some my favorite anime shows so that I can think of hot anime girls while doing vocabulary too. (Perhaps this is why RTK went so great..).


Thank you all for the input so far!
You might find this useful: The Four Strands

This is by Paul Nation, well known for his work on vocabulary acquisition. Here he stresses the importance of combining deliberate learning and spaced retrieval with learning through passive exposure (such as reading), because the latter, while the primary goal/focus, is so slow and limited.

Norbert Schmitt is another well known researcher, whom I quoted here: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid141180

I'll requote since you might not have access to the source article (http://ltr.sagepub.com/content/12/3/329.short)

“Taken together, the research confirms that worthwhile vocabulary learning
does occur from reading. However, the pick-up rate is relatively low, and it
seems to be difficult to gain a productive level of mastery from just exposure.
Hill and Laufer (2003) estimate that, at the rates of incidental learning
reported in many studies, a L2 learner would have to read over 8 million
words of text, or about 420 novels to increase their vocabulary size by 2000
words. This is clearly a daunting prospect, and thus it is probably best not to
rely upon incidental learning as the primary source of the learning for new
words.

Rather, incidental learning seems to be better at enhancing know-
ledge of words which have already been met. This conclusion is congruent
with Waring and Takaki’s (2003) findings that reading graded readers does not
lead to the learning of many new words, but that is very useful in developing
and enriching partially known vocabulary. Studies with a variety of test types
have shown that exposure leads to improvements in multiple types of word
knowledge. Also, given that repetition is key to learning words, the benefits of
repeated exposures in different contexts for consolidating fragile initial learn-
ing and moving it along the path of incremental development cannot be
underestimated.”

“... there are good reasons to believe that vocabulary requires a different approach
which incorporates explicit attention to learning the lexical items themselves:
• learners who understand the overall message often do not pay attention
to the precise meanings of individual words
• guessing from context is often unreliable, especially if the learner does
not know 98% of the words in the discourse
• words which are easily understood (guessed) from context may not
generate enough engagement to be learned and remembered
• new words which learners have met in discourse need to be met again
relatively quickly to avoid their being forgotten. In order for words to
be met 10 times in reading, learners would need to read 1–2 graded readers
per week. The typical learner simply does not read this much.
(Laufer, 2005)

However, the main reason for an explicit focus on vocabulary is that it is
effective: although research has demonstrated that valuable learning can
accrue from incidental exposure (see below), intentional vocabulary learning
(i.e. when the specific goal is to learn vocabulary, usually with an explicit
focus) almost always leads to greater and faster gains, with a better chance of
retention and of reaching productive levels of mastery. Laufer (2005) reviews
a number of studies which contain an explicit focus on vocabulary. Those in
which the explicit exercises were related to, but not embedded in, meaning-
based tasks led to 33–86% of the words being learned. Exercises which
required work on isolated words, without a meaning-based task, led to gains
of 13–99%. These ranges reflect a variety of types of measurement and immed-
iate vs. delayed testing, but regardless, they compare extremely favorably with
the magnitude of results typically derived from incidental learning. Laufer
goes on to report on three of her studies, which show that explicit vocabulary
exercises led to about 70% of the words being known on immediate receptive
posttests. Although this decayed to 21–41% on two-week delayed posttests, it
is far better than results reported from incidental learning. Similarly, Smith
(2004) found that target words which were used and focused upon in inter-
active tasks on an internet chat program were retained very well in terms of
receptive meaning knowledge (80–90%), and still fairly well in terms of
productive word form (50–59%) (one-week delayed tests).
Given the relative effectiveness of explicit activities in promoting vocabu-
lary learning, one might think such an approach would be a major element in
most classrooms. However, this is not necessarily so...

... Despite this relative ‘shortchanging’ of vocabulary, research clearly indi-
cates that a vocabulary learning program needs to have an explicit component,
and so the important question concerns which activities are most effective.
Although it impossible to say that any activity is better than any other activity
in all cases (which is not surprising given the complexity and variability
inherent in the language acquisition process, e.g. Ellis & Larsen-Freeman,
2006), vocabulary research has suggested a number of principles for selecting/
constructing effective learning tasks.”

(Schmitt then goes on to talk about active engagement, repetition, etc. [referencing the Four Strands article where Nation talks about distributing the repetition].)

Another paper: Four Principles of Memory Improvement: A Guide to Improving Learning Efficiency

Lastly:

http://psychologyinaction.org/2011/01/04...classroom/
http://psychologyinaction.org/2011/02/09...-learning/
http://psychologyinaction.org/2011/02/14...-teaching/

And with reading as the example, as I mentioned before and in the linked comment, it's not just SRSing, but things like Rikaisan where you have audio + definitions at your fingertips while reading to enhance receptive exposure, and of course the selection and arrangement of materials (such as graded readers). Keeping in mind you can also extract words and collocations from texts before reading them using MorphMan and AntConc.
Edited: 2011-08-10, 8:22 pm
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#17
I'm going through a similar thing today. Plenty of time to study and certainly the desire, but the thought of SRS today makes me feel bored! So I'm just reading through a manga and looking up words I didn't know on the first read through. Some days I can't face reviewing, so I just do this and add sentences to it to review another day. I largely ignore the number of reviews 'due' anyway, I'll get to them when I can...

I have heard of people spicing up there SRS by adding pictures and audio but I'm not enough of a techno whiz to do that...
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#18
jankensan Wrote:I have heard of people spicing up there SRS by adding pictures and audio but I'm not enough of a techno whiz to do that...
There is really nothing to it adding media to your decks. Everyone can do it, it's no rocket science. Smile Add the necessary fields to your deck, name them Audio and Pictures or whatever you want, and add the fields to either the front or the back of your cards. You can then simply copy and paste the media into the fields when adding cards.

Maybe you have to cut an audio track if it isn't the way you want it. You can use Audacity for this task.

One thing to consider is also to convert the sizes of pictures that go into your deck. And you can do this with your operating systems native application. You don't have to do it, but it is better when you have picture and text underneath it, to have one size for all. Or else the text is on the upper half of your monitor with small pictures, and somewhere else on larger one's.
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#19
I pretty much do my srs in bits and pieces. I set a threshold for how much cards I do each session. For vocab it's 100 per session(since I can blast through those). Sentences it's 40 and my production deck is 40. I usual listen to something while doing it(Jp). Or some inspirational music or VGM. Anyhow, it's all about mixing it up and adding fun context/vocab. Most of the time, the srs is boring in the beginning but once you find out how effective it is later down the road, you won't be able to stop using it. But then again, everyone is different. So you might not like it but I do.
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#20
i find SRS extremely boring, but i find external motivation to be a driving force behind learning from it.

when i recognize a word, grammar point, etc. "in the wild" that i learned from SRS, i feel a lot better that i've used SRS.

i feel it's kinda like many things in life, you're not glad while you're doing it(weight training, anything from school), but while you're applying it, you're glad you did it and you wish you did more of it.

i think a balance of reading substantial things, listening to things you want to know, or communicating in the language will take care of the boring part of SRS.
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#21
I don't accept the evidence that SRS is more efficient than reading fresh material daily as convincing. Even if it did get one to some imaginary goal slightly quicker, the sacrifice is too great. Life goes on and its pleasure should be maximized, even amid studies; The path is the goal.
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#22
Nagareboshi - yeah, I just can't be bothered with it. It's not my kind of thing, just a suggestion for people who can be bothered and think it might help. Still prefer the paper karaoke book to the digital thingy they have now, and so on. I'm constantly amazed at myself that I motivate myself to use an SRS at all, they really do drain my soul, but as my mother always reminds me - sometimes you just have to do stuff you don't like.

I'm with everyone here who says to vary your study pattern and keep it interesting. I'm reading ダウト at the moment and it's taking my mind off my inexplicable desire to just cram random vocal with no goal in mind.
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#23
I think you should stick to the SrS at a beginner level because it's simply the most efficient way to cram the kanji and readings when you just start out. I just finished the core 6k and have decided that I will focus more on reading with an electronic dictionary at hand instead of mindlessly going through another vocab list with thousands of words I might not even see often. After the incredibly dry academic experience of RtK and core6k coupled with grammar study I really feel the need to apply the knowledge I've been acquiring instead of making the acquisition of it a goal in itself. Some people on this forum give me the feeling they study for studying's sake given the amount of statistic nitpicking I sometimes see. I think we sometimes need to remind ourselves why we're doing this by picking the fruits of labour instead of trying to plant more trees in the orchard, or so to speak.
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#24
jankensan Wrote:Nagareboshi - yeah, I just can't be bothered with it. It's not my kind of thing, just a suggestion for people who can be bothered and think it might help. Still prefer the paper karaoke book to the digital thingy they have now, and so on. I'm constantly amazed at myself that I motivate myself to use an SRS at all, they really do drain my soul, but as my mother always reminds me - sometimes you just have to do stuff you don't like.

I'm with everyone here who says to vary your study pattern and keep it interesting. I'm reading ダウト at the moment and it's taking my mind off my inexplicable desire to just cram random vocal with no goal in mind.
It wasn't my thing either to begin with. My first book for learning the language was Genki I, and my method might not have been the most original, but it worked. I was typing in all the vocab lists and grammar points, and reviewed them for a while.

I had Anki before, but never got around installing and testing how to work with it, not until I did RTK. And still I had my doubts about SRS and how they are useful for anything else. When I was donen with RTK, i gave it a try and entered all vocab from Genki I, and it worked somewhow. Very basic cards, with some fields, not much to it.

Then came a phase when I was relying too much on the SRS when I did Genki II. Still worked out in the end, so i kept using it for the sake of reviewing. The card numbers were growing, the deck numbers as well. So did the time reviews took, 4500+ cards in the end.

Now I cut it down to two decks, and it works perfect. I don't try to convince you of the value of the SRS. Because it is obvious that there are other ways to learn and remember material. It is a tool, and if you or the OP feels it's a bother, stop. Make word lists, listen to native media, and it has probably the same effect. You can't remember everything, not even when using an SRS, so it's what you make out of it.
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#25
It's not either/or, all-or-nothing. The SRS and non-SRS enhance one another, making each more enjoyable and effective and varied, in the same or less amount of time.
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