Nagareboshi Wrote:The major factors are criminals who use the riots for their own cause, the high unemployment rate, the social status of families of teenagers, their own social status, the economic situation, and a bleak future outlook. If no major changes occur soon, those riots will be a common sight, not only in the UK.

The sad thing is that degrees in some countries mean little. In my country for instance ... You can have a degree, and still can't find employment - because you would cost too much, you are too educated, too young, too old etc. The excuses are manifold, but it boils down to this: You have a degree, you cost too much, you don't get a job not even uneducated ones. The education system is not what it was any more, and the outcome is no future for a growing number of young as well as old folk.

This leads to more and more people suffering, having no other choice, living under the poverty line even when they have a job, and all this in our wonderful, modern, and allegedly well educated world.

Off-topic: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid145335 - I have a question for you there if you don't mind taking the time to tell us about the book referenced therein, if you received it and have used it.

I simply can't find any sympathy for this lot. The government and the taxpayer already does so much for them as it is. In other countries they wouldn't be so mollycoddled.

Saying there are no opportunities for them is simply untrue. Once you pass a certain age you have to take responsibility for yourself and can't just blame your problems on your upbringing and surroundings anymore. If you do, that's just saying "Nothing can be done, this generation is a write-off" which is clearly going to solve nothing.

Poor people from other social groups function perfectly fine in society, the only problem is the deleterious culture of these communities. No one else is to blame for their culture but themselves.

Put these dropouts and hoodlums to work on manual labour or national service, I say. The only cure is to take them out from their communities, keep them busy and teach them how the rest of society acts. Force them to be useful instead of leeching in estates or prisons.

it's not always about blaming surroundings and upbringing, but having a clear idea of what opportunities there actually are, and the confidence to try.

it's also not really about sympathy, more, understanding...

I don't know how they can't know what opportunities there are. People in countries in far poorer and harsher places like India come flocking for the opportunities here. They would have to be covering their ears, covering their eyes and shouting at the top of their voices not to know, which I guess is what they're doing.

The fact that these sorts aren't even grateful for the handouts they do get is terrible. Such behaviour is offensive when there are people starving all over the world.

They already have more than enough essentials to live. Throwing more money and benefits at them isn't going to change their way of thinking, only hard work will. Make them rebuild what they've destroyed, put them to work in factories to repay all they've stolen. (I understand the technical difficulty in enforcing all this, but army style discipline should do the trick..)

- police violence and kettling. It is usually the crowd that is violent. I have been in enough demonstrations to know that. Kettling is a tactic because business got fed up with the damage caused. Kettling works but is very unfair to innocent people caught up unwittingly. If we all demonstrated like Ghandhi there would be no problem.

- Benefits. If you are single it can be tough. Job Seekers give £40-60 per week. Rent is paid, council tax is paid, prescriptions etc is free as are many other benefits. If you have a mortgage the interest is paid (but the formula can be complicated and is changing - mostly you are OK but it is not paid for 9 months so one can be vulnerable.) Your pension is stamp is paid for you. Anyway I reckon you would get about £8-9K. This is just under £5per hour. The minimum wage is 5.93 if over 21. Very tough but OK. The real problem comes with multiple children - these gain tax credits, child allowance free school meals and many other benefits. Look up YouGov. Most benefit people in my street are better off than the working residents. Average wage is supposed to be £26K. Those on more have less disposable income than the benefits lot. Nearly all are single parents Mums. I don't mean a Mum whose husband dipped his stick where he shouldn't have and went for a younger model. I mean Mums with 4 kids from 3 fathers before she is 22. Where are the Dads?

Millions have been pumped into these areas. Nearly all wasted. For over a decade we have done nothing but talk about and try to understand the underclass. The are not isolated. I come from there.

Sadly, education may not be the way out. A degree is frequently not respected by employers and now there are too many graduates anyway. I thought the Spring Uprising that started in Tunisia was interesting. One of the causes was the anger that students had gained degrees but there were not jobs for them. We have all missed the point. A degree does not grant a job. It grants a level of education and maybe some skill. That is all. A skill is useful for a job - education makes us better human beings. That is all. If you want a job get a skill that is required. If you have a passion for something study part-time or in your own time. Of course, not practical for Doctors etc.

- record unemployment. Not true. Nothing like it. It was 3 million in the 80s (really it was 4 million). It is about 2.5 million now and bear in mind our poplulation is nearly 5 million more than then with at least 1.5 million is the last 5 years.

Have you listened to the interviews with the rioters? It was just greed.

The real crime is against people who work hard for not much money and do their best. No bleeding hearts speak for them.

You want to get out of poverty. Cancel SKY and cable TV and buy your children books!

Poverty is in Somalia etc. Not Hackney.

Don't come down my street. We are ready this time.

IceCream Wrote:it's also not really about sympathy, more, understanding...

Don't you think this is just - to use a topical word - relativising these issues? The kind of communities you describe aren't anything new, nor are they unique to London, or even the UK. People try to force in talk of spending cuts, many of which haven't even taken effect yet, but I don't feel that there are any factors within the community that haven't been around for a long time, and in many other areas and countries.

Maybe those issues could explain how attitudes have been shaped, but the answer to why this happened is surely in the opportunity. Clearly none of the rioters think anything of the police, and aren't remotely intimidated by the penal system either. After the police showed a fatal weakness on Saturday, it had the effect of letting an untamed rottweiler of its leash in a butcher's shop.

You already said you can imagine how you could end up doing what they're doing. Many of them are no strangers to shoplifting, mugging, vandalism and burglary, so there's no moral barrier that was suddenly overcome on Saturday; it was simply a question of what they could get away with. If you and your friends saw on TV that you could get loads of awesome free stuff simply by running around in a group and smashing things, why the Jesus would you not be out there the next night? I can't see a reason why any of these guys would even hesitate to do it, and they didn't. OTOH, how do you think they would've felt if they saw the original outbreak swiftly quelled? Would they even have read about it?

IceCream Wrote:@Sendai Dan:

i would bet that you aren't anywhere near the situation of the majority of the people who were in the riots, and never have been.

Quote:if you did meet some of the people who participated in the riots, you'd probably find they do have respect for others, it's just on different terms to yours.

What are you justifying?

Violence can be justified if you're defending yourself from a violent aggression. Stealing could be understandable in extreme circumstances if you do it to survive and without putting innocent people in danger. Looting and rioting, burning cars and buildings is pointless violence and if you don't condemn it you're part of the problem.

BTW, having a degree doesn't make you smarter. Not having it doesn't mean that you're stupid either.

What makes you smart or stupid is making smart or stupid decisions in your everyday life.

For people living in London, what's your experience and your point of view regarding recent events? Media has a tendency for showing violent acts and hiding the real processes underneath them. Do you feel the TV is representing faithfully what's happening?

yeah, i'm not trying to relativise anything, really. Of course these communities are not new, and i said from the start i agree it's opportunism and thrill of the moment type thing. And yeah, of course if the police had been deployed differently it wouldn't have carried on.

once again, i'm not trying to justify anyone's behaviour... just that there's an awful lot of black and white thinking about stuff like this. i dunno, i think it's more interesting to think about the social conditions that lead to certain events than just hurling blame and writing large sections of society off as losers. Cause, government, culture, society, and effect are all tied in with each other in these situations, i think.

The thing about the penal system is, once you've already got a criminal record, there's very little more you can lose. It's with you for life regardless of who you are or who you become. You're never given a second chance, really. So, i'm sure there's an element of, well, ***** it then, may as well do this other thing as well...

@dixmox: not to worry, i'm sure the majority of those caught by the police will be doing vast amounts of community service after they've been through court...

@ Icecream.
Doubt anything much will happen. Have had my moped stolen 3 times in under 3 years. Only one was charged though the police knew who did it each time. The one that got done was 15. Was sent on a course to improve his self esteem. Still have the recording on my telephone when they told me. See him in town every so often. He just laughs at me openly and threatens my wife he will come round. This is common.

Penal system. The law is soft and is an ass. That is why it is not respected. Nearly all my mates from my youth did time. They all said it was a doddle. It is easier now. I still visit one. There is no deterrent. I would hesitate to punish a young teen. I would try to help in anyway possible. Over 18 then it us too late. You have to protect society. Once law and order goes there is chaos and everyone suffers.

The Father of a man who has been killed has called for calm. His is the example we should follow.



@ Sebastian
It is representative. Too much psyco babble maybe. What is rare is to see the anger of ordinary people at these thugs. Normally, such views are regarded as politically incorrect. No one listens to ordinary people anyway. This stuff happens on a much smaller scale in most towns every weekend. Has done for many years now. For years we have tolerated anti-social behaviour.

Now that you mention anti-social behavior, there are lots of articles about herd behavior and other related topics.

This is one I just read, probably some of you will find it interesting:
Psychopath Cowboys; Sociopath Herds: A New Theory of How Evil Happens

Quote:If you want a simple but accurate explanation for why civilization so often veers toward evil, here's a theory worth considering: Psychopaths are overrepresented in positions of power and they make sociopaths out of large numbers of us.

dizmox Wrote:In other countries they wouldn't be so mollycoddled.

In America they already have this same issue - and without unlimited welfare, the poor disillusioned underclass turn to crime. Relaxed benefit system or high crime rate, choose one..

dizmox Wrote:I don't know how they can't know what opportunities there are. People in countries in far poorer and harsher places like India come flocking for the opportunities here.

India is not part of the EU - so the only Indians who flock here students from affluent families, or those with specific technical skills and degrees. It's not really comparable.

Genuine question - what opportunities do people who haven't even got any A-levels have? Remember most minimum wage jobs are over-applied for, and benefits pay more than minimum wage anyway. Plus on minimum wage it's unlikely you'll be able to live a comfortable existence.

I agree with your sentiment btw, I just think the system is broken and it's not as simple as just blaming the people affected. I don't think the jobs or opportunities are there.

midnightsun Wrote:- record unemployment. Not true. Nothing like it. It was 3 million in the 80s (really it was 4 million). It is about 2.5 million now and bear in mind our poplulation is nearly 5 million more than then with at least 1.5 million is the last 5 years.

Don't forget the 2.6 million living on incapacity benefits. That means almost 4% of the entire UK population are too mentally or physically disabled to work. That's more than double the rate of most other countries in Europe - so either we have a serious health epidemic, or this form of welfare is being used to keep unemployment figures down.

Ok...new idea. Scrap the minimum wage and allow these people to be employed so cheaply that businesses would be crazy not to higher them. Decrease the welfare payments and make employment a condition in order to receive it.

nadiatims Wrote:Ok...new idea. Scrap the minimum wage and allow these people to be employed so cheaply that businesses would be crazy not to higher them.

The minimum wage is there for a reason - it's basically impossible to eat and pay rent if you earn less.

Also UK is part of the EU, and therefore allows unrestricted immigration from other European countries. Without minimum wage you'd have a race to the bottom - people from the poorer EU states won't mind working for almost nothing and sharing a room with 5 other people, as they'll be making large amounts of money compared to back home. UK citizens will be priced out.

nadiatims Wrote:Decrease the welfare payments and make employment a condition in order to receive it.

This is a better idea, and exists in many other countries - make it contribution based. You get a certain percentage of your last salary when you become unemployed - if you've never worked, you get nothing. To prevent people becoming homeless, shared council hostels are available, where you'll get a small room with one bed and 3 simple cooked meals a day. You'll be able to live but there's a big incentive to try and find a job and move out..

Here in Taiwan the situation is pretty interesting! If you become un-employed, or pregnant, you're expected to move back in with your family - no handouts, no free accodation! Your family have to support you, lol.

Also they have a really good policy for the disabled. If you're physically or mentally unable to work in a regular job, you automatically qualify to work for the state-owned Taiwanese lottery shops. With this the physically disabled get a sense of pride - they're part of normal working society - and people love the lottery, so the general public have lots of contact with disabled people. Better than them being shunned and hidden away.

Also the mentally ill can work, and if they're too ill to come in one day it doesn't matter, their job is secure. Helping them get back to work in this way makes way more sense than paying someone with a mental illness to sit at home by themselves until they're better (which is what happens in the UK).

dizmox Wrote:I don't know how they can't know what opportunities there are. People in countries in far poorer and harsher places like India come flocking for the opportunities here. They would have to be covering their ears, covering their eyes and shouting at the top of their voices not to know, which I guess is what they're doing.

The fact that these sorts aren't even grateful for the handouts they do get is terrible. Such behaviour is offensive when there are people starving all over the world.

They already have more than enough essentials to live. Throwing more money and benefits at them isn't going to change their way of thinking, only hard work will. Make them rebuild what they've destroyed, put them to work in factories to repay all they've stolen. (I understand the technical difficulty in enforcing all this, but army style discipline should do the trick..)

Exactly. These people, for their whole lives most probably, have got everything for nothing. They think it is their right to have whatever they want, whenever they want, and will do whatever they want to get it (as clearly demonstrated by these riots). Whereas a lot of immigrants from less well of countries are far more appreciative (generally) of the opportunities they have been lucky enough to encounter by moving to our countries (however some continue to live as they did in their former countries and bring all the associated problems along with them). Is it a coincidence that these people (parents and children) strongly believe in a good education and the parents will often do whatever is necessary to ensure their kids receive it?

On the other hand the spoilt little brats who have been given everything they have ever wanted and lacked discipline when growing up think it is their right not to have to go to school, or its their right to get go around smashing stuff because they are bored, or smash a shop window "just because I want an iPhone". There is an excuse for everything these days and our society does not hold them accountable for their actions. And it is only going to get worse because these teenagers and young adults will one day have their own children, who will be brought up in a similar environment and the cycle will just continue...

IceCream Wrote:@dixmox: not to worry, i'm sure the majority of those caught by the police will be doing vast amounts of community service after they've been through court...

Wow making them do community service is really going to solve the problem isn't it - it's hardly punishment and it probably won't stop them from doing it again. Not to mention all the taxpayer funded costs involved to hold trials for the 1000+ arrested people.

(Not having a go at you IceCream - just suggesting that their punishment (which will no doubt be community service like you said) is hardly going to be effective.)

Welfare should be a minimum wage job. I don't know why America doesn't put people to work building a desperately needed railway system stretching from New York to Los Angeles.

well, what would you suggest? I think the people caught doing the worst stuff, and the ring leaders will probably get prison, but for those that just got caught up in the moment, it actually seems pretty fitting to me... they break stuff in the community, they work to fix it.

And actually, community service does work better than prison in a lot of cases. It gives people a stake in the community, and helps them learn to value the work that goes into it. People don't tend to destroy their own stuff that often... and something that you've put a lot of work into becomes your own thing in some way, i think. Even just investing time in something does something to you, it's like a natural human trait or something...

you might like to see people punished for doing wrong or stupid things, but the reality of it is, punishment generally just creates more bad feeling, and doesn't actually work to stop people reoffending. If you're interested in stopping people reoffending, other options are better, even if it looks like it's not punishment, it's far more effective.

IceCream Wrote:well, what would you suggest? I think the people caught doing the worst stuff, and the ring leaders will probably get prison, but for those that just got caught up in the moment, it actually seems pretty fitting to me... they break stuff in the community, they work to fix it.

And actually, community service does work better than prison in a lot of cases. It gives people a stake in the community, and helps them learn to value the work that goes into it. People don't tend to destroy their own stuff that often... and something that you've put a lot of work into becomes your own thing in some way, i think. Even just investing time in something does something to you, it's like a natural human trait or something...

you might like to see people punished for doing wrong or stupid things, but the reality of it is, punishment generally just creates more bad feeling, and doesn't actually work to stop people reoffending. If you're interested in stopping people reoffending, other options are better, even if it looks like it's not punishment, it's far more effective.

No you are right, it might stop those charged from reoffending, but it won't stop Little Timmy down the road from joining in because he will think "I'm probably gonna get away with it. And besides what's the worst that can happen...community service."

bodhisamaya Wrote:Welfare should be a minimum wage job. I don't know why America doesn't put people to work building a desperately needed railway system stretching from New York to Los Angeles.

This sort of stuff is really what people talk about when they say "Lets tax the rich and pump money into infrastructure building so we can create jobs." Although that's not the same as forcing people on welfare to work, which some may be incapable of doing, but the point still stands. We simply do not have the money to do anything like that. That's ignoring some of the logistic issues too, such as fighting the corporation's sock puppets (read: Republicans & Teabaggers) which will balk at the "big government" and disrupting free market economics.

ok...idea number 2. Scrap the welfare. Keep the minimum wage, but allow employers to pay whatever they feel that person's ability is actually worth. The government can then pay the difference. So say minimum wage is 10$, the employer is willing to pay 2$, so the governement should pay 8$. This way the recipient gets to have a job where they can slowly increase their skills and start to understand the value of money.

vix86 Wrote:This sort of stuff is really what people talk about when they say "Lets tax the rich and pump money into infrastructure building so we can create jobs." Although that's not the same as forcing people on welfare to work, which some may be incapable of doing, but the point still stands. We simply do not have the money to do anything like that. That's ignoring some of the logistic issues too, such as fighting the corporation's sock puppets (read: Republicans & Teabaggers) which will balk at the "big government" and disrupting free market economics.

If GE or Google, paid $1 in taxes, it would be a tax increase on the rich. How would having welfare recipients put to work upset the Teabaggers?
When it comes to corporate welfare, the Republicans are silent.

SendaiDan Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:well, what would you suggest? I think the people caught doing the worst stuff, and the ring leaders will probably get prison, but for those that just got caught up in the moment, it actually seems pretty fitting to me... they break stuff in the community, they work to fix it.

And actually, community service does work better than prison in a lot of cases. It gives people a stake in the community, and helps them learn to value the work that goes into it. People don't tend to destroy their own stuff that often... and something that you've put a lot of work into becomes your own thing in some way, i think. Even just investing time in something does something to you, it's like a natural human trait or something...

you might like to see people punished for doing wrong or stupid things, but the reality of it is, punishment generally just creates more bad feeling, and doesn't actually work to stop people reoffending. If you're interested in stopping people reoffending, other options are better, even if it looks like it's not punishment, it's far more effective.

No you are right, it might stop those charged from reoffending, but it won't stop Little Timmy down the road from joining in because he will think "I'm probably gonna get away with it. And besides what's the worst that can happen...community service."

If little Timmy down the road is the type of person who thinks the only problem with doing crimes is the punishment you might get, chances are little Timmy is going to end up doing crimes anyway. So whatever, let's let Timmy break something too, (of course, try to educate him better in the meantime) and then learn the value of fixing stuff instead when the time comes.

The majority of people DO see something wrong with breaking other people's stuff rather than just thinking "man, i'd really like to break this thing, but i'll get in trouble if i do..."

http://www.news.com.au Wrote:Only eight per cent of Brits think government spending cuts are to blame for the riots, a new poll shows.

A poll conducted by the YouGov agency for today's Sun newspaper reveals 42 per cent of Britons are blaming criminal behaviour for the disturbances, while 26 per cent pointed the finger at a rise in gang culture.

One in 20 believed that unemployment was the main cause of the riots with a similar number blaming racial tensions.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/london-burn...z1UhpCyGu6

Interesting...

nadiatims Wrote:ok...idea number 2. Scrap the welfare. Keep the minimum wage, but allow employers to pay whatever they feel that person's ability is actually worth. The government can then pay the difference. So say minimum wage is 10$, the employer is willing to pay 2$, so the governement should pay 8$. This way the recipient gets to have a job where they can slowly increase their skills and start to understand the value of money.

But then every employer would pay $0.

Quote:This sort of stuff is really what people talk about when they say "Lets tax the rich and pump money into infrastructure building so we can create jobs." Although that's not the same as forcing people on welfare to work, which some may be incapable of doing, but the point still stands. We simply do not have the money to do anything like that.

Surely if you have free labour (free since you're paying them welfare anyway) they could come up with some enterprise that would be profitable. :/

dizmox Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:ok...idea number 2. Scrap the welfare. Keep the minimum wage, but allow employers to pay whatever they feel that person's ability is actually worth. The government can then pay the difference. So say minimum wage is 10$, the employer is willing to pay 2$, so the governement should pay 8$. This way the recipient gets to have a job where they can slowly increase their skills and start to understand the value of money.

But then every employer would pay $0.

Only for minimum wage jobs. The point is though that if these people would just be living off welfare payments anyway, you may as well have them out working and learning in businesses that can find jobs for them. And this shouldn't be difficult as someone is bound to want to take advantage of this subsidised labour.