Suddenly I'm happy having moved to Taiwan! Worst things we have here are idiots on scooters chewing binlang, and stinky tofu stalls.

Pity my friends and family are caught up in it though. Two sets of friends had to be evacuated from their homes in Hackney - plus my old area of Bethnal Green is all smashed up

I think this has been brewing for a while though; there have been anti-social issues with the young before this. Following on from what icecream said; UK went through a huge financial boom period; this led to mass immigration, cost of living and house prices went through the roof as well as record numbers of people in higher education. But this also left a whole generation behind.

Those who can't or won't go to uni were screwed; they now have no hope of getting a job above minimum wage, and even then they can't afford to move out of home or actually live a decent life. Now there is record unemployment, and state welfare payments are equal or higher than a low paid job anyway, so many have just given up looking for work.

In Japan people wouldn't randomly riot because getting caught and having a criminal conviction would seriously affect people's future prospects. Here these kids don't believe they have proper futures or any career prospects; they've got nothing to lose.

Why doesn't the government lower the welfare payments and taxes, and increase the minimum wage?

nadiatims Wrote:Why doesn't the government lower the welfare payments and taxes, and increase the minimum wage?

because the problem isn't that the benefit payments are too high, it's that the house prices / rent prices are too high, and housing benefit has to match that. It's very difficult to raise the minimum wage high enough...

the actual money you get on benefits per week for living on is barely enough to live on as it is, so that couldn't be lowered either.

@midnightsun: well, i agree with what a lot of what you say, it's not like the conservatives have directly caused the underclass. It's obviously down to education, opportunities, that kind of thing. But the conservatives HAVE exacerbated the situation, i think. People on the bottom rungs of society can't afford to be squeezed, but they're who're being targeted with many of the conservative's policies.

It may sound like it's a good idea that will reduce debt in the short term, but in the long term, these kinds of policies are likely to cost way more in court and prison costs. But for the conservatives, anything to make a quick buck is fine, no matter the long term logic, or ethics of the policies.

And sure, poverty isn't the same as it was decades ago, but it's not only being hungry that counts as poverty. There's also poverty of opportunity, & poverty of freedom, and i think that's probably the most significant kind in London right now. In a way, that makes people more angry, i think.

damicore Wrote:The system doesn't work but there are some giant echonomical powers who try to protect it no matter the cost, these people are the result of the actions taken by those echonomical powers who, through the system, marginalize these people.
It's clear it's not their fault but the fault of those corporations.
The actions taken by the so-called "rioters" may not be THAT right (those cases of looting seem kind of exaggerated by the media, I still think they're not the rule but the exception) but their voices would not reach the politics otherwise.
Though if someone could teach me which are the specific reasons for these riots, it'd be easier to analyze.

The thing is, there aren't any specific reasons though. At least, not for the majority of it... mostly it's opportunistic. There's no protest really, it's people getting carried away, and feeling like they have power.

It started in Tottenham, after a peaceful protest against the police shooting a father of 4 (who had a gun, but apparently never fired it).

nadiatims Wrote:Why doesn't the government lower the welfare payments and taxes, and increase the minimum wage?

Minimum wage does get increased every year, but it hasn't risen in line with cost of living. The real cost of living has increased due to increases in food, fuel and massive inflation of house prices (rental and buying costs) but the government tries to hide this by using clever mathematics and two separate measures of inflation (RPI vs CPI ).

I think the real issue is - a large hike in the minimum wage would kill the British economy. Lots of people would have to be laid off, mass unemployment etc - not worth it in the long run.

As for welfare payments; they can't be decreased, as people literally wouldn't be able to afford to live. Also note welfare in the UK comes in 2 parts; a monetary payment is used to buy food, clothes etc, and a housing benefit payment that is used to pay for rent. The former has been eroded same as minimum wage, but the latter payment has risen in line with rental prices, meaning if you want to come off welfare and you want to stay in the same house or one similar, you need to get a job that pays higher than minimum wage (if that makes sense).

There are also other free stuff you get on welfare (dental care, prescriptions, educational courses) and you get 24/7 to stay at home and do what you like. There's no time limit for how long you can be on it like in the US - so why bother taking a boring minimum wage job with no chance of future prospects? The entire system is broken at the bottom basically

London Bridge is falling down,

Falling down, falling down.

London Bridge is falling down,

My fair lady...

Seen on CraigsList in London:

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

>_>a

rich_f Wrote:Seen on CraigsList in London:

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

>_>a

Bloody hell, 40 iPhones!

First thought was "could be a coincidence, maybe he just imported a load". Then I noticed they're all O2 branded...

LOL! way to keep undercover.

Sales of baseball bats up 9,000% in the past 24 hours on amazon..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/

Also nunchucks, lethal metal pens, and top riser is a folding metal shovel with a bladed edge, up 284,100% - seems the Brits have taken a sudden interest in gardening?

that's pretty scary :/

dizmox Wrote:...are making me angry.

This wouldn't happen in Japan.

To the extreme that they have occurred in London it wouldn't, but Japan has had their share of violent protests.

Two dead in Birmingham:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bir...m-14471405

According to Twitter, they were brothers trying to defend the shops from looters.

Also rioting in Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham. This is no longer a London-based protest - the underclass are revolting.

rich_f Wrote:Seen on CraigsList in London:

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

>_>a

I've always wanted 40 iPhones..

aphasiac Wrote:Two dead in Birmingham:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bir...m-14471405

According to Twitter, they were brothers trying to defend the shops from looters.

Also rioting in Liverpool, Manchester and Nottingham. This is no longer a London-based protest - the underclass are revolting.

You mean the same underclass that was living on social benefits provided by the government with money stolen from hard working people? The same underclass that has no incentive to work since socialist established benefits are so great there is no point in working? My my, how could anyone predicted that.

First we teach them to just reach their hand for money (no effort needed) than we are surprised they are actually doing it more forcefully every time... Its not like every culture has a saying along the lines: "Give them a finger and they'll take an arm"... Oh wait

Just realised - this whole episode is eerily similar to the setting of the film Battle Royale. In that world, mass unemployment in Japan causes the youth becoming disillusioned, leading to random violence and social disorder; society starts to break down..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Royale_(film)#Plot

Soo not only could it happen it Japan, it's been predicted

IceCream Wrote:It started in Tottenham, after a peaceful protest against the police shooting a father of 4 (who had a gun, but apparently never fired it).

And what was he doing carrying a gun in the first place??? If he had never had it, then the police would have had no reason to shoot. The fact that he was shot and killed by the police has been used purely as an excuse to start this mass hysteria, violence, looting, animalistic behaviour by the predominately younger generation. Last time I checked it was quite easy to have a peaceful protest without burning cars, destroying property and looting buildings.

And do you know what I am probably in the exact same situation as these people - I'm 21, a university graduate who is still trying to find a job, trying to cope with rising living costs, highly unlikely to be able to afford a house in the foreseeable future etc. etc. etc. (luckily I am living with my parents at the moment). Does that mean I am going to run around town with a bunch of other "mates" stealing anything I can get my hands on and then burning down the building once I taken everything I can.....NO of course not, and for a number of reasons;

1. Firstly I have RESPECT for myself and other people & their property
2. I RESPECT the law and the consequences that it imposes
3. I am intelligent (yes I did read that teachers/gradutes etc have been involved) but I'm assuming that most of these people have minimal education
4. I don't own a gun, knife, baseball bat, crowbar, molotov cocktail mixture etc so I couldn't even if I wanted to.

Anyway what I'm trying to get at is that this shows a real functional breakdown in society and unless it is fixed it will continue to get much worse. In general people have lost the respect we have for one another, the patience we have with one another and the ability to communicate with each other.

And it is happening everywhere. How many stabbings and armed robberies have there been in Australia lately??? Every night there is something on the news. Only yesterday some lady slashed a guy across the face (the police subsequently shot her in the leg) because they had a tussle over a parking incident. How hard is it to TALK to the other person??? You don't just grab the knife and start attacking people. And what the hell was she doing with the knife in the first place? Last time I checked you didn't need a knife to go to the supermarket or pay the bills. Society is just getting out of control.

And to the OP who suggested that this wouldn't happen in Japan (I'm guessing he meant now as in 2011) do you know why? Because Japanese people have RESPECT for themselves, each other and people's belongings. I know, I lived there and experienced it first hand and when I came back to Australia I absolutely hated the way people spoke to each other and treated one another. Unfortunately now I am used to it again.

/End of rant

damicore Wrote:The system doesn't work but there are some giant echonomical powers who try to protect it no matter the cost, these people are the result of the actions taken by those echonomical powers who, through the system, marginalize these people.
It's clear it's not their fault but the fault of those corporations.
The actions taken by the so-called "rioters" may not be THAT right (those cases of looting seem kind of exaggerated by the media, I still think they're not the rule but the exception) but their voices would not reach the politics otherwise.
Though if someone could teach me which are the specific reasons for these riots, it'd be easier to analyze.

You must be kidding.

Or just insane.

It really has nothing to do with that shooting; that was just the incident that started it all.

Actually it's an almost exact copy of the LA Riots - pity the UK police couldn't learn from them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Peaceful protests just tend to end up getting you kettled or beaten senseless by cops lately...

I'm pretty sure this situation is more or less directly caused by a chronic dependency on welfare that has gone on for generations. Welfare is like a bandaid solution that allows the underlying causes of poverty to be ignored. These people need to be weened off the welfare like an addict from drugs.

Give people fish and they will riot for more free fish.

Teach a person to fish and .... yea

Seeing as the majority of rioters and looters seem to be teenagers, I doubt welfare is a major cause unless it's family poverty as a result of parents relying on it.

Anyways, the causes are no doubt far too complex to say "it's because of X".

@Sendai Dan:

i would bet that you aren't anywhere near the situation of the majority of the people who were in the riots, and never have been.

For a start, you're educated to degree level. That's a little different to the situation of people who may never have even finished high school. Are any of your parents in prison? Do you have a criminal record already yourself? Did practically everyone in your school carry a knife? Were you branded by your postcode? If there were jobs, would you be able to get one that pays more than minimum wage?

It's easy to judge when you're not brought up in the same kind of culture... if you did meet some of the people who participated in the riots, you'd probably find they do have respect for others, it's just on different terms to yours.

@nadiatims: i'm not sure if you're sentence even makes sense there. How can the problem be caused by the welfare state if the problem with the welfare state is that it hides the real problem...?

It really doesn't make sense to simplify things to that extent, anyway though.

The major factors are criminals who use the riots for their own cause, the high unemployment rate, the social status of families of teenagers, their own social status, the economic situation, and a bleak future outlook. If no major changes occur soon, those riots will be a common sight, not only in the UK.

The sad thing is that degrees in some countries mean little. In my country for instance ... You can have a degree, and still can't find employment - because you would cost too much, you are too educated, too young, too old etc. The excuses are manifold, but it boils down to this: You have a degree, you cost too much, you don't get a job not even uneducated ones. The education system is not what it was any more, and the outcome is no future for a growing number of young as well as old folk.

This leads to more and more people suffering, having no other choice, living under the poverty line even when they have a job, and all this in our wonderful, modern, and allegedly well educated world.