nadiatims Wrote:re: banning. Was it a mistake? maybe, I can't be bothered rereading that train-wreck of a thread, but it's Fabrice's forum, so it was his call to make.

Fabrice is calling the shots, thats right, but there were no bans. nest0r could come back anytime he wants to. Obviously something twisted Fabrice the wrong way that day - and he openly admitted that that was the case, when he spoke out the warning to place bans on both nest0r and bhody. This wasn't the only time Fabrice got a little mad when nest0r came on posting stuff that seemed totally unrelated, to proof how stupid Fabrice view on the matter is. But this is only a personal observation for this was posted in the Offtopic.

I want to see nest0r back because he had always something interesting to read in petto. This is why I liked nest0r and hated him alike for always coming up with something new. And I just can't withstand ... At least since the time he took shelter, lurking under a bridge, or in a shabby bar who knows, where this genius is hiding. Where was I? Oh yes, since he vanished from the face of the earth, I got time to catch up with reading what he posted.

Sinister as he is, he will creep up again from out of the darkness, and bury as with the latest scientific papers!!!! And when that happens I blame all of you, for joining the dark side of the force. Not that anyone cares about it, neither do I ... *whistles* Time for you to show yourself nest0r or I call the BFI!!

nadiatims Wrote:The problem with nest0r was their frequent inability to actually explain their ideas with any clarity or brevity. So much of what Nest0r wrote was overly verbose, longwinded and ultimately vague. And constantly pointing people to go read articles written by other people during debates strikes me as intellectually lazy.

I'm not one to kick a man when he's down, but I agree with this statement. Alot of nest0r's more scientific posts seemed to me to be deliberately abstruse; an attempt to win arguments or boost his e-prestige by sheer bafflement.

That said, I did like Nest0r's more relaxed posts; could be very humourous at times (as seen in that "ask magamo" thread linked above).

nest0r will be back. This has happened before: they took a break. Remember? http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6122
I hope they will be back, things are just not the same without them...

@Surreal: i think, if that was what nest0r was actually doing it would have been more valuable.

The thing is, there's a big difference between speaking as objectively as possible, and believing that what you're saying is the ultimate truth and everyone else is wrong. There's a number of members of this forum who DO try to speak objectively... you, Tzadeck, Blahah, Yudan, pm215, magamo, etc. who are also prepared to listen to other points of view and understand where they're coming from, as well as learn things from posting here, and i find these discussions 1000% more useful.

Since Nest0r foxblocked my posts, i'm not too worried about kicking him when he's down or anything, it's not like he reads my posts anyway. And i guess this is part of the problem, for me, that he does things like that. He literally blocks other people's thoughts once he's disagreed with them, and assumes everything they say will automatically be not worth listening to. That, along with his apparent impossibility to consider his own views as fallible, and plenty of times i've seen him miss the point of various pieces of research, or other people's opinions, ultimately made me less respectful of his opinions in general. It makes me wonder what he's blocking in research terms too, and whether he actually reads things to reconfirm his own beliefs rather than refine them.

Anyway, i'm sorry i somehow managed to start a hate-fest, that wasn't my intention at all. I just meant to say to the other poster that i don't think Fabrice acted particularly badly... taking a time out isn't so bad when you get overheated in an argument. I know i need one sometimes!!!

nadiatims Wrote:

Surreal Wrote:Nest0r is/was one of the few people who would usually try/usually tries to give as objective recommendations as possible to people who ask about learning strategies,etc. instead of going purely by personal experience which most posters do.

The problem with nest0r was their frequent inability to actually explain their ideas with any clarity or brevity. So much of what Nest0r wrote was overly verbose, longwinded and ultimately vague. And constantly pointing people to go read articles written by other people during debates strikes me as intellectually lazy. It's really annoying arguing with people who don't even understand their own ideas well enough to explain them to others. Pretty much anytime I've disagreed with nest0r I've basically been told: "you're wrong, go read this, this and this." And then when I do make the mistake of reading his links, I get the impression s/he hasn't even read them, has misunderstood something or is erroneously linking to irrelevant or dubious studies. Nest0r liked to parade around as scientifically minded and objective but was so often closed to the possibility of being wrong about anything.

After using the search function to read through some of Nest0r's past posts, I can say that I simply disagree with you. Also, the thing with linking articles/others' works meshes quite well with what I said about connecting disparate parts of the knowledge base and not bloating it by doing the explanations of the same concepts that over and over again, as well as being humble in a way, not trying to present what you picked from other sources as your own-made material.



Btw JimmySeal, your post in this thread is great, thanks for the laugh http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7575

Edit: Icecream: welp, I guess I missed something? Like I wrote in this post I tried searching for Nest0r's past posts to understand what nadiatims meant and I didn't see any indications at all that Nest0r was so ignorant of others' opinions (I also read some posts were he mentioned how his views on some things had changed and admitted that he had wrong previously, when linking to his own older posts). Anyway, they might not have been entirely fair or agreeable all the time, but I still think that Nest0r has been helping out with furthering/promoting the type of reasoning that I described in my first post, regardless of what their aim was. And so I still see their input as highly valuable.

It's not cool to speak ill of a forum member in a public thread for people who miss him, especially when that person isn't around. How about keep it to yourselves until he comes back? If you really don't want him here, you can say so directly to him when he's back or post it on your I-hate-nest0r google+ circle or something so only people who want to hear bad things about him can hear you. His attitude may have been annoying to people who argued with him, and I too got annoyed for the same reason others said about how he doesn't listen to others. But maybe no one deserves being trashed in a public place in his absence just because he gets on your nerve.

By the way, OP, you might want to edit your post if you're talking about illegal access to academic journals.

Agreed -- I really think this thread needs to be locked if people can't stop bashing nest0r. That's not fair to them nor is it helpful for the forum.

magamo Wrote:It's not cool to speak ill of a forum member in a public thread for people who miss him, especially when that person isn't around. How about keep it to yourselves until he comes back? If you really don't want him here, you can say so directly to him when he's back or post it on your I-hate-nest0r google+ circle or something so only people who want to hear bad things about him can hear you. His attitude may have been annoying to people who argued with him, and I too got annoyed for the same reason others said about how he doesn't listen to others. But maybe no one deserves being trashed in a public place in his absence just because he gets on your nerve.

I agree.

kainzero Wrote:aijin saying she loves ice cream, and someone making a modified version of her avatar to show her eating IceCream's avatar.

That was me!

Cool, I've left a trace of my existance on this forum, now I can rest in peace. =)

Quote:this community is great.

I've been too busy having a real life to have a detailed idea of what's happened here, but from what I've seen it seems this community has turned into a kind of a soap opera (or a chapter of "Caso Cerrado" for those who have seen that program). That's a real shame.

IMHO, you all should take yourselves and the forum less seriously. Seriously, if you get mad because of something you read at a computer screen written by someone you'll most probably never met in person, then your hurting yourselves in a very stupid and pointless way. It seems Fabrice also uses to get too "serious" with his position as administrator and sometimes makes bad decisions and acts impulsively. When you (and by "you" I mean everyone) feel angry, take a rest, go away for a while, and come back when you feel calm and you'll avoid hot-headed mistakes that will ruin the coexistence in this great community.

I hope everyone here learns from this unpleasant moment of the forum, and that when I have more time to come back this will be the constructive place it has always been.

Best wishes.

magamo Wrote:It's not cool to speak ill of a forum member in a public thread for people who miss him, especially when that person isn't around. How about keep it to yourselves until he comes back? If you really don't want him here, you can say so directly to him when he's back or post it on your I-hate-nest0r google+ circle or something so only people who want to hear bad things about him can hear you. His attitude may have been annoying to people who argued with him, and I too got annoyed for the same reason others said about how he doesn't listen to others. But maybe no one deserves being trashed in a public place in his absence just because he gets on your nerve.

yeah, fair enough. it's definately not constructive, either. Fabrice probably should close this thread...

i also hope we can get back to normal soon!!!

magamo Wrote:It's not cool to speak ill of a forum member in a public thread for people who miss him, especially when that person isn't around. How about keep it to yourselves until he comes back? If you really don't want him here, you can say so directly to him when he's back or post it on your I-hate-nest0r google+ circle or something so only people who want to hear bad things about him can hear you. His attitude may have been annoying to people who argued with him, and I too got annoyed for the same reason others said about how he doesn't listen to others. But maybe no one deserves being trashed in a public place in his absence just because he gets on your nerve.

By the way, OP, you might want to edit your post if you're talking about illegal access to academic journals.

Well given that nest0r never showed that kind of consideration to others (eg. Khatzumoto for one) I don't see the problem.

yudantaiteki Wrote:This is degenerating into a mean-spirited thread; I don't see the need to take pot-shots at posters who aren't here (by choice or not) to defend themselves.

My impression is that any thread that dtcamero gets involved in turns mean spirited, but that could just be a coincidence. ;-)

CJ

Tefhel Wrote:Well given that nest0r never showed that kind of consideration to others (eg. Khatzumoto for one) I don't see the problem.

Two wrongs don't make a right, or so I heard. Also, they say you should be nice to others if you want them to be nice to you. YMMV.

IceCream Wrote:yeah, fair enough. it's definately not constructive, either. Fabrice probably should close this thread...

I personally disagree with Fabrice having to close threads "like this one". He's nobody's mother and we shouldn't call him to solve the problems we create by ourselves. I guess he has much more important and productive things to do.

If a thread isn't "productive", then just stop checking it, nobody is forcing you. I checked the anti-Kathzumoto (or whatever he spells his nickname) one until I realized it was a total waste of time that could be well wasted in more pleasant activities. I think the administrator shouldn't waste time and mental energy babysitting the users.

Quote:i also hope we can get back to normal soon!!!

As Neo-Gandhi would say: "Be the change you want for the forum."

If you don't like the general direction the forum is taking, then just don't row into that way. The rest will fade in time anyway, so why worrying so much about it?

Peace and love for all. Now stop wasting your time in futile discussions and do something either productive or fun (you get brownie points for doing both at the same time).

Gah, you lot are like maggots to a corpse! Why don't we stop throwing rotten fruit at the empty stocks. nest0r has long been a key, and extremely heplful, member of the community - if you didn't like their posts, it's pretty cowardly to now start complaining.

@magamo, no I certainly wouldn't talk about illegal access to academic journals. I just said journal access - the vagueness allows me a degree of plausible deniability.

I like nest0r and bodhi.

well, i think everyone who's complaining actually has complained to his face on a number of occassions lol. So, not so cowardly.

Anyway, i think i'm also gonna take a break from this forum for a few weeks, and like Sebastian said, do something more fun and productive. I'm too emotionally reactive for this stuff, negativity on here (or anywhere) makes me feel negative way too easily.

IceCream my negative comments are never directed at you!

Perhaps not cowardly, but considering the point of the thread I think it's definitely not the place for people to air their grievances.

Sebastian Wrote:I personally disagree with Fabrice having to close threads "like this one". He's nobody's mother and we shouldn't call him to solve the problems we create by ourselves. I guess he has much more important and productive things to do.

The purpose of having an administrator and moderator is to deal with problem threads. I'm on the fence about closing heated debate threads like the AJATT ones, but this thread has devolved into nothing more than people insulting and criticizing a person who apparently isn't around to defend themselves. It has nothing to do with the topic of the forum and is not productive in any way.

＾＿＾　thanks Blahah!

ah, i meant more general negativity anyway though... there's been quite a lot around lately, so...

hahah must!stop!reading!

right, next, some fresh air. that's something i haven't felt in a while

NestOr has provide valuable information relating to language learning, and this is greatly appreciated. However, nest0r went over the line in their behavior. It isn't unusually from an individual being banned from a site, take the time an read some of the Community Guidelines or "Terms and Conditions" from various sites. Any action taken by a site has nothing to do with the individual, but has everything to do with their behavior. Hopefully, the break will do nest0r good, and they will be able to do some self reflection.

I've learned from this thread that English really needs a non-gender specific third person pronoun. Luckily Japanese doesn't have this problem.

Nest0r and Bodhi are both awesome.

Everyone is talking about Nestor and Bodhi's awful violations of forum guidelines, but as far as I know, they didn't resort to making personal attacks on their opponents.

Things did get a bit heated and yes, Nestor pulled no punched when it came to criticizing SS , but I don't see him/her using ad hominem (personal attacks) or insults. Here are some of his most offensive posts:

Nest0r Wrote:"it's definitely a ripoff. Exploiting new learners with false promises and bad methods in an overpriced system with zero accountability."

Nest0r Wrote:"Didn't you already write this comment? Making baseless accusations and projections caricaturing other users. Maybe you should try calming down and sticking to just assessing the system/arguments rather than attacking people. Of course, this is a brief moment where I'm not ignoring you and tokyostyle (didn't you leave this thread ages ago, multiple times?) so this recommendation isn't for my sake."

Nest0r Wrote:For example Tefhel, to me, basically everything you wrote is a highly subjective and highly negative and one-sided ad hominem. You're making anonymous accusations of hypocrisy that are unfounded, justified only by your snide caricatures.

Nest0r Wrote:Keep in mind that after 15 or so pages of the above, I think it's pretty reasonable that some responding anger has leeched into even our comments, but nevertheless you won't see us personally insulting you or caricaturing you. For example, I stated you were being one-sided, negative, subjective, and snide. I didn't say you were spitting in our faces, blathering on and crying and this and that.

Nest0r Wrote:No, you didn't hurt my feelings. I simply expect that when someone pops in to voice their insulting opinions, they have some justification for them. Unfortunately when confronted with this request, you are unable to provide it. Not a single quote or rationale. So I am fine with you holding your tongue in the future, unless you want to post something more mature and rational.

So Nestor, tried to remain polite and mostly kept attacking his opponents' arguments. I think he got some people angry because he dismissed his opponents' arguments as completely worthless and uninformed. I understand how this can be frustrating, but when you see the kind of personal insults that go on in other forums or even in this one, it falls well short of being truly offensive or inappropriate IMO.

Meanwhile , just in this thread, we have disgraceful comments by Ginmanm and dtcamero attacking Nestor and Bodhi personally:

Ginmanm Wrote:I for one am glad he left once he snapped back into reality, realizing his epeen was nothing more than a delusion. The same goes for blood (who cares how its spelled).

It's true though that they (Bodhi especially) tried to continue the discussion on SS when they should have stopped and Fabrice gave him a fair warning.

Hey guys let's all put our differences aside, and rejoyce together...

magamo is back on the forum!!!