[ファブリス]

Thora Wrote:Would a couple more responses be okay, Our Benevolent and Great Fabrice? (IceCream doesn't like to be ignored.) ;-)

I didn't close the topic... yet.

ファブリス Wrote:Are you guys done with the missionary service yet? Saving all the poor souls from the tentacles of evil? Can we go back to more productive topics?

Khatzumoto has tentacles, and will spoonfeed me Japanese? Where do I sign up?

I actually feel this has been one of the most important threads ever started on this forum. There is a charismatic Japanese language messiah that is fleecing his mesmerized congregation of more than just offering plate change.

The purpose of a forum is not just to share what has been beneficial for us personally, but to warn of products or services that are not worth the asking price, or are not recommended for some other reason.

One of the comments made on the last SS page, before it was taken down mysteriously, was that negative reviews on another language site convinced the potential customer this was not the right product for them.

Besides that, it has been a good debate on business ethics, and Thora's post on Japanese business law was interesting.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I doubt he is registered as a business since he isn't filling any of the legal requirements (privacy policy, contact information, business registration etc on public display on the page). I don't think SS users receive a service contract either and I really doubt the 18 month refund policy is legal. I believe it isn't possible to start a business in Japan without a Japanese partner either, but maybe that is just paranoia from the Debito camp. I do know through my work that you cannot start a company in Thailand (or even a branch of your overseas company) without x% of employees being Thai nationals and there are similar issues in China.

Running a business (especially services) is a lot more complicated than accepting money and saying "I'm a business now!".

He would also lose his visa if he quit his job (unless he's married now or has PR). You can self-sponsor, but you need proof of profits etc from the previous year. Since SS didn't exist last year that wouldn't be possible. If he IS quitting, I guess he's riding out whatever visa he had from his last job, which is a gray area.

That's all besides the point though because it has nothing to do with SS itself (aside from maybe influencing the decision if you can trust him enough to hold on to your $2k+ and honor the refund policy).

Seems to be a bit of confusion about company law in Japan.

First of all, if you want to start a company (limited liability, etc.) in Japan, the only requirement is that at least one of the managing directors can provide a seal registration certificate (印鑑証明書). To register a seal at a municipal office, you need to be a resident of Japan. No problem at all for a foreigner as long as you've got your alien registration card. Nationality is not relevant.

Surprisingly, running a business in Japan can be quite simple. It's not even necessary to set up a company or a sole proprietorship. Many individuals run perfectly legitimate business as individuals. Individuals in Japan can earn salary income (wages earned from their jobs), as well as business income (revenue earned from their business). Individuals doing this may be translators, journalists, consultants, service providers, technicians, IT professionals, etc. The list goes on and on. As long as you report your earnings on your annual statement (確定申告), you are good to go.

To prevent confusion about residence status issues, I'll clarify as well. Quitting your job (or being fired) is not reason for residence status to be revoked. Immigration law states that if you do not participate in the activities outlined in your status for 3 or more months, it may be revoked. This leaves plenty of room to change status, find a new job, or leave the country.

As I mentioned, I was basing what I said about registering based on stuff from Debito, which is often wrong. Thanks for clarifying.
Found some reference if there is someone else who wants to start a cult:
http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/invest/setting_up/

Re: visa
He still wouldn't be able to self sponsor at this point. Would operating an internet business fall under his previous visa? If not, he's not legit. Thankfully Japan's visa categories are a lot more lax than countries like Korea so his new venture might well very fall under his old status.

Still, I think the chances he has actually registered a business are close to zero. I doubt he's quit his job either, but I don't read his site so I don't know what he said regarding that. Maybe he's planning on quitting in a year or so if SS takes off?

Not sure what his residence status is, so I'm not sure if the activities of running a language learning business would fall under it or not. Though as I said before, as long as he is working his current job, and the activities are in order, then he will have no problem staying in the country. And there are no problems with having a job and running a business at the same time.

As for self-sponsorship, it's pretty difficult to talk about as well without knowing his residence status or earnings. He could very well be eligible, and he may very well be not.

Completely unrelated. Just a media diversion for the lurker who uses our comments as humor banners in his/her promotion of services.

It doesn't matter if his business is in Japan. It could very well be in the US. What might be illegal in Japan, might very well be legal in the US. Refund policy. With potential subscribers in mind, and this discussion is all about them, right? - all that matters is how they can get their money back.

What can be said so far is that the product is too expensive.
There should be / or has to be a legal policy on the website that everyone can access.
It is not the best idea to make a contract with a person without knowing said person by name, address, etc. But I guess those willing to sign up, will not care much about legality, judging by some comments - I will look for a job to be able to join ...
A word is a word, but without a written contract, it is worth nothing.

There is no evidence of the usefulness of his product or the lack thereof so far.
There is no person that has reached fluency with his method yet.
There is also no person who asked their money back.

There are people who are subscribers to his product, and it would be interesting to get a range of sample mails to see what they contain. What else does he offer besides Emails? Is he available for questions? How can one contact him? Does any of his subscribers know his address, just in case? His real name? His whereabouts? Anyone willing to share that information?

Well, a couple commenters have already noted they decided against Silverspoon thanks to this thread, plus the thread title is more clear now and there are enough substantive comments from critics rather than the Khatz-loving troll comments (which are 99.9% of the comments defending Khatzumoto). So I'd be okay even if this thread were closed due, for example, to those same hyperbolic, juvenile commenters insulting us and/or being vulgar (and inadvertently giving Jarvik7 more material ;p).

Then again, it would be a bad dynamic. AJATT is overwhelmingly promoted here in various ways, and criticism often leads to incredibly bad behaviour on the part not of the critics but the defenders, so to have that poisoning shut down discourse that doesn't blindly promote AJATT would be a bad habit, because then we'd be left with a method/guru that can't be criticised on the forum because of bullies.

Nagareboshi Wrote:It could very well be in the US.

Bingo.

Nagareboshi Wrote:There are people who are subscribers to his product, and it would be interesting to get a range of sample mails to see what they contain.

It's not an email list. There are plenty of blogs that detail the daily activities.

Nagareboshi Wrote:Is he available for questions?

Yes, and he encourages feedback.

Nagareboshi Wrote:How can one contact him?

Email or comments similar to those you see on the main blog.

Nagareboshi Wrote:Does any of his subscribers know his address, just in case? His real name? His whereabouts?

This is not a legitimate request of any business.

He's bound by all of the rules of PayPal so if he didn't respond to his customers issues they would shut him down pretty fast.

How's this for productive?

Dear unwashed masses,

Before you damn your ignorant souls by partaking of the sinful nectar of Khatzumoto's hollow temptations, send some money to this site, not merely for the stories and the flashcards, as sacred and good and just as they be. But also for the salvation offered to you by the wise words given freely to thee at the forum, hosted generously by the kind and benevolent Fabrice. Even whilst noble Fabrice is on vacation, the forum continues to provide its bounty, because evil never rests!

By the way, if this thread is closed, I expect SilverSpoon critics to spend their freed time on the wiki! We need to pull a bait-and-switch for people who think they need to be spoonfed. Give them what seems to be spoonfed advice, but free, then switch and give them something essential for their self-study, which is the fostering of learner autonomy and an embrace of challenges and difficulties.

I am very amused when I read old AJATT posts (from say, 2009), and I see comments from RTK members (same username) saying stuff such as "Wow, thank you Khatz!! Your tips are so helpful!", and then I come on here and now the very same people are criticising him in the harshest terms. I imagine Khatzumoto must find that rather funny.

Personally I think it's a useful service for a certain type of language learner, but I think all that can be said on this topic probably has been already.

Tefhel Wrote:It's amusing when I read old AJATT posts from like 2009, and I see comments from RTK members (same username) saying stuff like "Wow, thank you Khatz!! Your tips are so helpful!", and then I come on here and now the very same people are criticising him in the harshest terms. I imagine Khatzumoto finds that rather funny.

Personally I think it's a useful service for a certain type of language learner, but I think all that can be said on this topic probably has been already.

For the type of language learner who wants to get ripped off? Very useful.

And I'm not sure why you think it's “amusing” or “rather funny”, unless you have a very rigid mindset and think people having their opinions changed by the actions of others is humorous somehow? If so, I think you must have some perceptions that probably need updating. I find it amusing that you would search for old comments to make such a poorly thought out point.

Personally, I've never made any secret that I found specific aspects of Khatzumoto's site useful, just as I've found other learners' tips useful, and eventually found little of use and now still less (but occasionally some interesting ideas, such as when I posted about the critical frequency idea, or the JReK link, and when I put the LWT software link on the wiki, where do you think I heard of that?), and the snake oil stuff and constant insults from AJATT defenders has only made my criticisms stronger and more constant.

I also mentioned here previously that I eventually stopped commenting at AJATT because of the top-down guru/follower dynamic. I can't speak for others, unfortunately, but I always posted there as an equal, often offering critiques or elaborations or a joke. My hope, which you could see there and in early AJATT-related comments here, was to connect Khatz (despite his fear of forums and their non-guru-ness) and the commenters there to this site and on this site to connect the idea of AJATT to simply being a label for self-study, which I gave up on and replaced with RevTK as the only label I'd be willing to use.

I didn't worship Khatzumoto or attack people who criticize Khatzumoto/AJATT because as a learner he has posted occasionally useful stuff. Lots of people here have created in digest form on their blogs various methodologies they find useful, some of it taken from AJATT as AJATT did Antimoon. Should you pay them whatever they want, heap exorbitant, blind praise upon them, or attack people who criticize their recommendations?

I don't think it's necessary to hammer down exactly what ajatt's legal situation is. I think it's enough to get some people thinking about those kinds of issues who mightn't otherwise and to encourage people to expect better communication of information and better contract terms.

Who SS buyers are doing business with, where they are located and what law applies is basic expected information. I'm not sure why someone didn't just respond earlier that it's a ____company or individual in _____, USA. Writing out hypothetical examples using "if these provisions apply to SS" and "it's possible that", as I did earlier, may still be useful (for the reason above), but I could have written about what actually is. Similarly, no time was needed to discuss setting up a business in Japan (though people might find that interesting.)

That ajatt is run out of the States is also the answer to my earlier question about paypal donation buttons being stopped in Asia. It also takes care of any exchange rate issue (assuming the funds aren't transferred to a Y account.)

Nagareboshi Wrote:Does any of his subscribers know his address, just in case? His real name? His whereabouts?

tokyostyes Wrote:This is not a legitimate request of any business.

He's bound by all of the rules of PayPal so if he didn't respond to his customers issues they would shut him down pretty fast.

tokyostyle, are you talking about identity on paypal? I think Nagareboshi is talking about a services contract. Paypal doesn't protect long-term service arrangements, those terms would have to be set out separately. It would include name, location and applicable law (which state.) If there is no contract, then I guess people could be buying from an unknown paypal entity...

By "shut him down pretty fast", are you saying that if there were problems with refunds 18 months down the road, buyers could write a negative review about a seller on paypal? Paypal's dispute resolution wouldn't deal with this. It's for payment/refund/return of goods within in a time limit.

(I'm not familiar with paypal, but after a quick glance it looks like buyers could successfully claim a refund within the time period b/c services aren't covered by seller protection. Weird result if that's in effect a trial period. But I guess there's probably a buyer review section, too. haha)

Again, to be clear, I don't think the solution is to find a way to shut him down or go after the money in a different country after the fact. Prevention is more realistic. But since your post suggested that paypal provided the needed security, I thought I'd add my 2c.

nest0r Wrote:-snip-

I didn't go 'searching for old comments to make a point'. I just happened across an old AJATT article as I was searching for a piece of software I remember he'd mentioned, and it tickled me to see a rather fangirlish comment from an RTK poster. People are of course allowed to change their opinions, I do all the time. But it is funny when it swings from bubbly "Thanks Khatz, I love you!" to outraged "AJATT is a complete scammer, people who like him are complete fanboy idiots!"

It's just oddly vehement anger. There are plenty of things that I consider a waste of money, or something only idiots would buy. But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really? A few people here are abnormally emotional about it, that's all I'm saying - such that their criticism seems borne out of some other emotion than mere disinterest in/dislike of a product. I'd expect to hear less bitching and vitriol from one of Khatz's jilted lovers.

I'm just thinking out loud, but I would think it's enough to voice your criticism (no one is saying you're not allowed to criticise) and then move on. Instead of everyone endlessly blathering on for 500+ comments about how outraged they are and how the sky is falling. I mean I know this is a forum, but as Fabrice has implied, this is kind of ridiculous. Then again, I accept this is the internet and there is little common sense to be found here.

Tefhel Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:-snip-

I didn't go 'searching for old comments to make a point'. I just happened across an old AJATT article as I was searching for a piece of software I remember he'd mentioned, and it tickled me to see a rather fangirlish comment from an RTK poster. People are of course allowed to change their opinions, I do all the time. But it is funny when it swings from bubbly "Thanks Khatz, I love you!" to outraged "AJATT is a complete scammer, people who like him are complete fanboy idiots!"

It's just oddly vehement anger. There are plenty of things that I consider a waste of money, or something only idiots would buy. But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really? A few people here are abnormally emotional about it, that's all I'm saying - such that their criticism seems borne out of some other emotion than mere disinterest in/dislike of a product. I'd expect to hear less bitching and vitriol from one of Khatz's jilted lovers.

I'm just thinking out loud, but I would think it's enough to voice your criticism (no one is saying you're not allowed to criticise) and then move on. Instead of everyone endlessly blathering on for 500+ comments about how outraged they are and how the sky is falling. I mean I know this is a forum, but as Fabrice has implied, this is kind of ridiculous. Then again, I accept this is the internet and there is little common sense to be found here.

It has gotten ridiculous in that many of the critics, including myself, at this point are just repeating what they said on the first few pages of the thread, but with shortcuts that are very cutting to Khatzumoto/AJATT. But what's more ridiculous is the constant accusations of vitriol, as the only vitriol for the bulk of this thread has been from those defending Khatzumoto, and there's no vitriol at all coming from Thora, who has gotten the most accusations of vehemence, from ironically vehement attackers, forum members who go ad hominem against Thora because she criticised a third party.

Thora also called dtcamero and tokyostyle “love”, is that what you mean? I don't think Thora is a fangirl of theirs.

The thread does seem ridiculous, but I would say it's because the thread is inflated with needless ad hominems and there's a lot of repetition. It's difficult to pick out precisely what to respond to when there's so much subjective stuff or evasive stuff in response, so responses tend to take on a rote feel that is rounded off by nasty retorts.

For example Tefhel, to me, basically everything you wrote is a highly subjective and highly negative and one-sided ad hominem. You're making anonymous accusations of hypocrisy that are unfounded, justified only by your snide caricatures.

nest0r Wrote:You're making anonymous accusations of hypocrisy that are unfounded, justified only by your snide caricatures.

They're not unfounded in the least, have you not read the thread? I'm accusing anonymously so as to NOT make an ad hominem. If you want an ad hominem it was in fact you I was talking about all along.

Tefhel Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:You're making anonymous accusations of hypocrisy that are unfounded, justified only by your snide caricatures.

They're not unfounded in the least, have you not read the thread? I'm accusing anonymously so as to NOT make an ad hominem. If you want an ad hominem it was in fact you I was talking about all along.

Really? Feel free to provide quotes. I'd also like to see quotes from this thread demonstrating that the critics, including Thora have been vitriolic or have attacked the other members posting here. Make sure to demonstrate the reasonability of other comments by defenders lest you seem one-sided for solely attacking (yes, it's still ad hominem even if you don't name names or use pseudonyms) the critics' character and posting style.

Here's an example: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144774

Keep in mind that after 15 or so pages of the above, I think it's pretty reasonable that some responding anger has leeched into even our comments, but nevertheless you won't see us personally insulting you or caricaturing you. For example, I stated you were being one-sided, negative, subjective, and snide. I didn't say you were spitting in our faces, blathering on and crying and this and that.

nest0r Wrote:Really? Feel free to provide quotes. I'd also like to see quotes from this thread demonstrating that the critics, including Thora have been vitriolic or have attacked the other members posting here. Make sure to demonstrate the reasonability of other comments by defenders lest you seem one-sided for solely attacking (yes, it's still ad hominem even if you don't name names or use pseudonyms) the critics' character and posting style.

Here's an example: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144774

Keep in mind that after 15 or so pages of the above, I think it's pretty reasonable that some responding anger has leeched into even our comments, but nevertheless you won't see us personally insulting you or caricaturing you. For example, I stated you were being one-sided, negative, subjective, and snide. I didn't say you were spitting in our faces, blathering on and crying and this and that.

Huh? Since when was I talking about people attacking other members? I never mentioned that at all. I was talking about people attacking Khatzumoto.

Tefhel Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Really? Feel free to provide quotes. I'd also like to see quotes from this thread demonstrating that the critics, including Thora have been vitriolic or have attacked the other members posting here. Make sure to demonstrate the reasonability of other comments by defenders lest you seem one-sided for solely attacking (yes, it's still ad hominem even if you don't name names or use pseudonyms) the critics' character and posting style.

Here's an example: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144774

Keep in mind that after 15 or so pages of the above, I think it's pretty reasonable that some responding anger has leeched into even our comments, but nevertheless you won't see us personally insulting you or caricaturing you. For example, I stated you were being one-sided, negative, subjective, and snide. I didn't say you were spitting in our faces, blathering on and crying and this and that.

Huh? Since when was I talking about people attacking other members? I never mentioned that at all. I was talking about people attacking Khatzumoto.

I said “or” have attacked the other members here. Technically the unfounded accusation was for hypocrisy, and you specified me, so again, feel free to post quotes.

nest0r Wrote:I said “or” have attacked the other members here. Technically the unfounded accusation was for hypocrisy, and you specified me, so again, feel free to post quotes.

I didn't suggest (nor intend to suggest) hypocrisy at all. I was commenting on my amusement at how fickle people are - hence why I said that the comments were from 2009. You took offense at my amusement, hence the discussion.

Tefhel Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:I said “or” have attacked the other members here. Technically the unfounded accusation was for hypocrisy, and you specified me, so again, feel free to post quotes.

I didn't suggest (nor intend to suggest) hypocrisy at all. I was commenting on my amusement at how fickle people are - hence why I said that the comments were from 2009. You took offense at my amusement, hence the discussion.

My last comments were in January 2009 from what I can see, and they were disagreeing, politely, with Khatzumoto that grammar doesn't exist/doesn't need to be studied/etc. Before that I posted specific thanks for specific tips or critiqued other ideas or elaborated upon them, but I thanked other commenters there and posters here a lot as well—actually much more than Khatzumoto—back then, especially as I was still working out my own preferences and ideas years ago, which is good to note because many things I used then I don't use now. None of my comments said I loved Khatzumoto? None of them were even remotely fangirlish, if you were talking about me, and I'm not sure why you chose the word fangirlish, was that intended to be an insult? Because according to dtcamero I'm a gay male who has a thing for Khatzumoto. All because I said I loved his slender fingers. Oops, I didn't actually say that.

Again, as far as I know, no one who currently criticizes Khatzumoto has ever demonstrated worship/love of the figure or even discussed the method as a particular system you must follow, and certainly whatever comments we've written years ago, moderately and ambiguously, doesn't make current criticisms seem fickle to me. I wonder why it does you? What's fickle about it? It's not like yesterday we were praising Khatzumoto and now we're not.

Edit: You can also see a progression of our thoughts here on the forum from the same time period to the present, so I'm not sure why you'd rely solely on comments there anyway. I treated Khatzumoto/AJATT the same here as I did there. As another learner who advocated self-study, and who had a blog that unfortunately resulted in guru worship. The difference is that back then, I believed Khatzumoto had good intentions despite certain learners' turning themselves into True Believers. Now I don't.

nest0r Wrote:My last comments were in January 2009 from what I can see, and they were disagreeing, politely, with Khatzumoto that grammar doesn't exist/doesn't need to be studied/etc. Before that I posted specific thanks for specific tips or critiqued other ideas or elaborated upon them, but I thanked other commenters there and posters here a lot as well—actually much more than Khatzumoto—back then, especially as I was still working out my own preferences and ideas years ago, which is good to note because many things I used then I don't use now. None of my comments said I loved Khatzumoto? None of them were even remotely fangirlish, if you were talking about me, and I'm not sure why you chose the word fangirlish, was that intended to be an insult? Because according to dtcamero I'm a gay male who has a thing for Khatzumoto. All because I said I loved his slender fingers. Oops, I didn't actually say that.

Again, as far as I know, no one who currently criticizes Khatzumoto has ever demonstrated worship/love of the figure or even discussed the method as a particular system you must follow, and certainly whatever comments we've written years ago, moderately and ambiguously, doesn't make current criticisms seem fickle to me. I wonder why it does you? What's fickle about it? It's not like yesterday we were praising Khatzumoto and now we're not.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not your old comments were fangirlish (or fanboyish if that offends you) and amusing - it's an opinion, and I found them to be both of those things. Likewise it is also my opinion that people in this thread (including yourself) are being/have been both ridiculous and vitriolic. You seem to want to debate my opinions as if they were facts - I wonder why that is? I certainly didn't present them as such. Well I do know why, because I've offended you, and I certainly do apologise for any hurt feelings I may have caused you, I assure you that was unintentional. Perhaps I should hold my tongue in future, as you should yours.

Tefhel Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:My last comments were in January 2009 from what I can see, and they were disagreeing, politely, with Khatzumoto that grammar doesn't exist/doesn't need to be studied/etc. Before that I posted specific thanks for specific tips or critiqued other ideas or elaborated upon them, but I thanked other commenters there and posters here a lot as well—actually much more than Khatzumoto—back then, especially as I was still working out my own preferences and ideas years ago, which is good to note because many things I used then I don't use now. None of my comments said I loved Khatzumoto? None of them were even remotely fangirlish, if you were talking about me, and I'm not sure why you chose the word fangirlish, was that intended to be an insult? Because according to dtcamero I'm a gay male who has a thing for Khatzumoto. All because I said I loved his slender fingers. Oops, I didn't actually say that.

Again, as far as I know, no one who currently criticizes Khatzumoto has ever demonstrated worship/love of the figure or even discussed the method as a particular system you must follow, and certainly whatever comments we've written years ago, moderately and ambiguously, doesn't make current criticisms seem fickle to me. I wonder why it does you? What's fickle about it? It's not like yesterday we were praising Khatzumoto and now we're not.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not your old comments were fangirlish (or fanboyish if that offends you) and amusing - it's an opinion, and I found them to be both of those things. Likewise it is also my opinion that people in this thread (including yourself) are being/have been both ridiculous and vitriolic. You seem to want to debate my opinions as if they were facts - I wonder why that is? I certainly didn't present them as such. Well I do know why, because I've offended you, and I certainly do apologise for any hurt feelings I may have caused you, I assure you that was unintentional. Perhaps I should hold my tongue in future, as you should yours.

No, you didn't hurt my feelings. I simply expect that when someone pops in to voice their insulting opinions, they have some justification for them. Unfortunately when confronted with this request, you are unable to provide it. Not a single quote or rationale. So I am fine with you holding your tongue in the future, unless you want to post something more mature and rational. However, I won't do the same, and I hope others such as Jarvik7 and Thora won't either, because their posts are cathartic and harmlessly fun responses to insults, or simply reasonable and objective posts, which are of actual value.