nest0r Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:@nestOr lol. Not sure how I would ta12121212121efied this thread

ta12-ification is the irruption into threads of Temporary Autonomous Zones operating in 12 dimensions, also known as TAZ12s or abbreviated as ta12s, as induced by the user codenamed ta12121.

Good know I'm a irruption into threads of the this forum. I temporarily operate Autonomous Zones and add my own flavor(code) into them.

Ok, so this is a late entry and to some extent i'm rehashing what others have said...

The way i see it, $1000 over 18 months really isn't a lot of money. I mean, how much would 18 months of a personal tutor cost over the same period? At the rate my company paid for private lessons for me for a brief period, that would get me 30 or so hours of lessons. Which is really not so much over 18 months.

Now whether Silverspoon is *worth* that much money is a different story. I don't think it is. I've never really liked being spoon feed anyway, so i'm not really the target audience. There are many parts that seem somewhat fishy. The time limit on the refund, the total lack of detail as to what it actually contains, the lack of a trial plan, etc. I mean, compared to an organisation like JPod101, his transparency really sucks.

I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone try it. But if people are willing to give him $1000 for what he promises, more power to them. I'd recommend demanding a business address or something that can be used to track him down for the purposes of suing if he doesn't make good on his refund offer. The amount of money he is requesting is large enough that i'd only give it to a registered business who'd give me a receipt. I mean, we're way outside the "$5 to cut my lawn" territory.

On another note, I see nothing wrong with Thora's original post (hilarious satire). Anyone offended should stop being so sensitive.

gdaxeman Wrote:I don't think so — many times, what prevents people from doing something is that they don't have a clear, believable plan for succeeding at what they're trying to do; not knowing if something will work is what prevents many from doing what it takes. Also, figuring out a way to accomplish something by reading, hearing and then turning into something useful the myriad of conflicting viewpoints and discouraging arguments available in places like forums can be a very distressing task for a beginner, enough to discourage them from even trying.

Sometimes, all it takes is the inspiration and the guidance from one person who has already accomplished what they're also trying to accomplish — not unlike that student who learns martial arts just by following what his teacher asks him to do, without never having to devise his own method.

I think that learning actual content from an instructor is not the same as self-studying according to email tips from someone you've designated as an authority by virtue of their having a blog with motivational patter, because they claim to have, at some point and with some type of methods, become fluent in 18 months. There are many approaches to self-study and ideally they are accessible and streamlined, and I think they can be developed and promoted beyond what we already have without spending daily sums of money in exchange for extreme promises from a web guru.

gdaxeman Wrote:This argument, while true when it comes to motivation and efficiency, is often used as nothing more than an excuse not to do something or to justify a lack of commitment. Remember that children all around the world learn their native languages basically the same way, no matter if they "learn differently" or not — unless they have some kind of impairment, like hearing- or cognitive-related ones. When it comes to learning, even a suboptimal way is enough; the most important part is that the path is belieavable enough for the person to follow it consistently and all the way through. Trying to find the "perfectly personalized method" but not putting in any work where they could already be putting, because it's not how they "learn better", often results in nothing but no results at all where it counts.

As we have seen/discussed in another thread, there are clear systemic and cognitive differences in how adults learn an L2 and children learn an L1; adults use their brains in more strategic, active ways to increase efficiency. I do think there are core optimal universal aspects of human learning that are empirically demonstrated, and those are what I am most interested in, but the what and how of their arrangement and integration dynamically occurs per individual across a wide set of permutations that depends on the autonomous learner having cultivated the ability to self-study so they can adapt and make sound judgments. Metacognition and self-regulation are crucial components themselves. It's not an all or nothing equation, learning and planning go hand-in-hand with self-study, and improving your planning improves your learning. I have also constantly stressed the importance of affect in learning, but this is also importantly tied to the self-aware embrace of challenges from the onset. Many papers stress the importance of this and I think that it gets left behind when people talk about why they think Silverspoon is a good idea for them, and I've seen nothing in Silverspoon to make me think it's counterbalanced in a way that weans the buyer off and fosters autonomy, even if I thought it was reasonable priced.

gdaxeman Wrote:That's because of the psychological associations people have when it comes to pricing. My view is that any price is justifiable as long as there's anybody who's willing to pay for it, and that nobody's insane for paying too much for something they could get for much less — that's what keeps the economy going and entrepreneurs motivated to play this now pervasive game humans have created eons ago.

The value of money and how much something should cost are actually arbitrary concepts, often based on nothing but an illusion — there's nothing "real" about it, nothing that really makes something worth more or less than other thing; nothing, except what people are willing to pay for them.

I think integrity in business is important, and I also think that prices can legitimately be determined to be ripoffs or overpriced, even exploitative, however subjective and relative this might be. Part of what determines these things, or affects perception of them and effects change, is discussions such as these. ;p I think establishing such fundamental integrity may be important because I'm quite keen on the idea of seeing more virtual/distance tutoring and self-study in the future. (As a kind of grassroots, more dynamic corollary to self-access language learning centres that is worthwhile, rather than the sudden emergence of a series of sleazy online cons that exploit the tendency to create hero figures.) If nothing else, I hope these discussions make people rethink what they want from a virtual guide to self-study, in terms of aiming for autonomy and asking for professional terms and substantive content. I talked about dilution before. Perhaps what I'm worried about as well is the poisoning of the well? (Self-study itself.)

Edit: Motivation and perseverance are also enhanced by metacognitive awareness as connected by things like judgments of learning and judgments of the rate of learning to optimal study time control/task allocation to achieve desirable difficulty/the region of proximal learning (see Metcalfe and Kornell's research in particular). Then of course there's the concept of flow, regarding ensuring the challenge level is sufficient. I mentioned this in a few other threads, but worth mentioning again. (This is also important to ensure optimal SRSing, that you don't drop items too early from spaced retrieval practice.)

zigmonty Wrote:I mean, we're way outside the "$5 to cut my lawn" territory.

lol. Well put. By the way, I actually thought Thora's post was serious at first. I was like, ‘What's going on here? Why is she asking for money, does she think this will actually work? ... Ohhhh.’

Omoishinji Wrote:Also, a more accurate depiction of AJATT services is required. As it is the only honest thing to do.

Just a minor thing I intended to mention way back then. At that point in the thread, no depiction of the services had been given, so there was nothing to be made more accurate. There wasn't any dishonesty.

I think it's clear that "I'll send a few of my study tips" in the OP wasn't offered as an accurate and complete description. :-)

I was primarily interested in the new payment terms and the guarantee. (Perhaps I didn't emphasize that enough.) I figured folks could go to the site and the other Silverspoon thread for service descriptions, if they wanted. At the time, I thought of asking Omoishinji asking to add a description, if they felt it necessary. That's no longer required, though.

@zigmonty - where were you? It got rough, man. ;-)

nest0r Wrote:I actually thought Thora's post was serious at first.

haha I figured it was probably a mistake to include the "18" in the title as that alone might trigger an AJATT association for some (many?).

A couple random questions:

edit - I'd be grateful if someone using SS could let us know if the the contract is with a company or Khatzumoto personally?
[removed Q]

- I think I'm misusing "parody". I thought it was a satirical work (song, story, etc) based on a real work. But does the real work have to be a specific, famous piece? In other words, if my OP is loosely based on SS's advertisement [actual doc, recognizable only to specific group], is that a parody?

Thora Wrote:@zigmonty - where were you? It got rough, man. ;-)

9 pages in like 5 days... damn, that's what i get for going to work and *not* spending the whole day on internet forums...

I am not sure why spreading out information from a book of advice over 18 months through email makes it more worth $1,000.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am not sure why spreading out information from a book of advice over 18 months through email makes it more worth $1,000.

Ah, but that's not what you're paying for, right? You're paying to be fluent in japanese. Which is easily worth $1000. No one else promises fluency in less than 2 years for such a low, low price. It's a bargain!

The fact that all that is required for that to happen is a few pep talks and a list of learning material is neither here nor there. Hey, he's got a money back guarantee, right?

Yes yes, i know.

zigmonty Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am not sure why spreading out information from a book of advice over 18 months through email makes it more worth $1,000.

Ah, but that's not what you're paying for, right? You're paying to be fluent in japanese. Which is easily worth $1000. No one else promises fluency in less than 2 years for such a low, low price. It's a bargain!

The fact that all that is required for that to happen is a few pep talks and a list of learning material is neither here nor there. Hey, he's got a money back guarantee, right?

Yes yes, i know.

win, win situation

zigmonty Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am not sure why spreading out information from a book of advice over 18 months through email makes it more worth $1,000.

Ah, but that's not what you're paying for, right? You're paying to be fluent in japanese. Which is easily worth $1000. No one else promises fluency in less than 2 years for such a low, low price. It's a bargain!

The fact that all that is required for that to happen is a few pep talks and a list of learning material is neither here nor there. Hey, he's got a money back guarantee, right?

Yes yes, i know.

For that much money he should provide the learning materials...

chair Wrote:Anyway, after reading this thread I was wondering if any of the Silverspoon progress blogs has posted any of the daily emails in whole or in part. [...] I think it would greatly enhance the discussion by giving everyone a concrete sample of what this method is really like, helping us to move away from mere speculation. If anyone on this forum has subscribed to Silverspoon and is willing to post a sample email it would be a great way to prove that the service is worthwhile!

zyaga's blog has a pic of the a daily instruction page, but it's pretty basic. My understanding it a link to the posted daily instructions is sent by email.

The zen of language learning blog has a description of some of the activities around day 35.

The tanoshimi blog has a brief description of the little motivational/inspirations email that are sent a few times a day, which may included a motivation quote with a link to a website, song, video or info on a product. Interestingly, the blogger mentioned that there are a lot of duplicated links. So I guess that suggests its a script? (somone had speculated about that early). In any event, they aren't personalized/customized.

Tanoshimi also a description of the daily activity routine: input kanji, shadow, copy sentences, listen, reps, background listening. He mentions doing the same activities for weeks (he's at day70ish) in varying combinations.

Tarkonis here has a blog at the spoon that feeds and a thread here.

There are also detailed descriptions of actiivities in the other Silverspoon thread. If I'm not mistaken theVinster posted some info.

Perhaps the content will change in the latter part of the course, but the first 70 days sound like fairly unnecessary detailed daily instructions. Khatz concedes that the type, timing and amount of the activities are flexible and you can use any media. So ...?

Thora Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:Also, a more accurate depiction of AJATT services is required. As it is the only honest thing to do.

Just a minor thing I intended to mention way back then. At that point in the thread, no depiction of the services had been given, so there was nothing to be made more accurate. There wasn't any dishonesty.

I think it's clear that "I'll send a few of my study tips" in the OP wasn't offered as an accurate and complete description. :-)

I was primarily interested in the new payment terms and the guarantee. (Perhaps I didn't emphasize that enough.) I figured folks could go to the site and the other Silverspoon thread for service descriptions, if they wanted. At the time, I thought of asking Omoishinji asking to add a description, if they felt it necessary. That's no longer required, though.

Sorry, but that was a general statement directed to some critics of the service. Shouldn't be the poster to provide the pertinent information? However, many jurisdictions don't allow contract for more than one year.

SendaiDan Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:If there is a desire not to uses a service then that is okay. It is hard to understand anyone complaining about paying $1000 to learn Japanese, when to study Japanese in Japan is much more expense than that in one year. Some course are over $1000 in one month. There is no need to spread misinformation. Also, a more accurate depiction of AJATT services is required. As it is the only honest thing to do.

Ummm well if it was me I would rather put that $1000 towards studying Japanese in Japan with Japanese people in real world context, rather than sitting in front of my laptop in my bedroom learning Japanese from dramas and what not by myself.

You can quite easily find plenty of resources to immerse yourself in Japanese for FREE or for a small cost.

Edit: The advertisment really reminds me of those dodgy sites that appear in google searches that look legit but when you click on them just go on and on forever repeating the same stuff with lame photos of people who have supposedly gained 10kg of 'PURE' muscle in 6 weeks or shed 30 kgs in 1 month or whatever it is that they are trying to convince you to buy.

Yes, in my hometown Toronto, the Japan Foundation just 5 minutes from where I lived and it was free.

Hello, the SilverSpooner and blogger of tanoshimini here. Normally I don't post here but I'd like to give my 2 cents worth on SilverSpoon.

SilverSpoon isn't for everyone and that's already stressed out before signing up. Whether you sign up for it or not is up to you. It's not like you are you being held at gunpoint to sign up for it. Yes the price may sound ridiculous but I'm paying a dollar a day and I spend more than that each day. For example, catching public transport, wasting money on things that I really don't need. Honestly, in my opinion, you can find most of the methods and what not on the web.

But this is what AJATT SilverSpoon does, it "spoonfeeds you clear, detailed, chunked down, chewed up, simplified, minified instructions on:

"What to do
How to do it
Where to do it
What to use
How to use it
What to read
What to watch
What to learn
When and where to learn it
How long to learn it for
What to buy
Where to buy it
When to buy it"

And most people who start off learning a language find it daunting on where to begin. For example, "where to find Japanese content, what Japanese content may amuse us, what methods can we try that may prove effective. This is what SilverSpoon does for us. Yes, I may come across as lazy but sometimes people don't have the time to search for content and methods that might work for us.

SilverSpoon has an overview (which I won't post of course) of what you can expect in the 1-595 day periods. I can tell you it's broken into chunks. I've covered this in one of my posts.

I guess we have to wait for the remaining 500+ days to see if fluency will be met or not and I will remember to pay this site a visit to say whether or not I have reached it. So I do feel it's a bit ridiculous to judge SilverSpoon on speculation and on SilverSpoon as a whole. It's only been like 97 days or so.

If you're interested in the first 1-90+ days then you can visit my site here , http://tanoshimini.com/category/ajatt-ss/ . Hopefully it will give you a slight insight into what SilverSpoon is and how it is.

Excuse the long post!

Many people seem to be confused by this dollar a day idea. I remember the same sales pitch by a life insurance salesman years ago. If he were extending the emailed links over 36 months and still charging a dollar a day (all up front), would it still be a good deal?

I paid mine all up front, the whole xx amount required. Whether or not you can afford it is your problem. No one's forcing you to sign up for it. Like I have mentioned, SilverSpoon is not for everyone. Maybe you have disregarded what I've said. Furthermore, you can get a refund if you're displeased with it.

Why do believers assume that criticism is due to being unable to afford it?

You can have more than enough money to buy something but still think it's not worth the asking price.

sutekiiii Wrote:I paid mine all up front, the whole xx amount required. Whether or not you can afford it is your problem. No one's forcing you to sign up for it. Like I have mentioned, SilverSpoon is not for everyone. Maybe you have disregarded what I've said. Furthermore, you can get a refund if you're displeased with it.

Anyone on this forum who's reasonably experienced can tell you all the information you listed in your previous post.

Where are people getting this $1000 figure from? I thought it was a dollar a day..so just under $600?

Anyway I feel this whole discussion is being confused by the mixing of 3 separate issues:
1) Does Silverspoon work - will the buyers end up fluent after 18 months?
2) Is Silverspoon good value for money (assuming that it works / buyers don't ask for refunds)
3) Is Khatz honest (will he disappear with the money or not issue refunds).

For me :
1) Am unsure - I'm sceptical but am willing to wait 18 months and see.
To clarify, I do believe Khatz's original claims (that he achieved a high enough level of fluency to go to a Japanese job fair, be interviewed and land a job in 18 months) simply because with the amount of time he put into learning Japanese, that sounds realistic. I'm sceptical whether this will work for others, as he's quite OCD and he probably underestimates the number of hours he put into actual studying (i.e. listening, practising speaking, learning new words, doing reps etc).

2) Yes I believe $600 is a good price for Japanese fluency, assuming that we go by the Silverspoon definition, and assuming that it works (i.e. a buyer goes from zero to fluent in that time).

Consider alternatives; Rosetta Stone is $400 for the full 1-3 Japanese package (finish it and you'll be able to just about use verbs, possessive, past tenses,a few phrases..). Also a subsidised 10 week Japanese course I did through work was £200 ($300), and that barely took us to using verbs (Oh and the tutor just used 'Japanese for busy People', so no actual original content).

As for the content (or lack of) being value for money - I see silverspoon as being the same as hiring a personal trainer. All the methods of getting fit, exercise regimes, literally everything is freely available in books at the library, in magazines or online, so why would anyone ever hire one? Yet fitness coaching (and other lifestyle coaches) are a multi-million dollar industry. People are paying for the end-result (with the main service being motivation and guidance along the way), that's it.

The way I see it, if Silverspoon is that trivial then the market will speak and several clone websites offering the same services will appear (for a cheaper price naturally).

3) Khatz offered refunds on all past AJATT products he sold, and I don't remember any complains on those. I'm willing to change my position if complains or problems appear. But for now, there's no point speculating.

Anyway I've now stated my final position; This thread is going round in circles and I'm bored of it, so this really is my last post on the matter.

EDITED: for clarity on points 1) and 2)

@aphasiac : I think you are right on the summary of this thread

There is something I would like to know. How many hours day would you need to use for Japanese on these 18moths?

aphasiac Wrote:2) Yes I believe $600 is a good price for Japanese fluency,

You're repeating the same fallacy I've already corrected twice in this thread.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144484

Whatever the price actually is, you get 0 vocabulary and 0 grammar for that price. That all comes from elsewhere, and going by Khatz's own program description, you should be prepared to spend $2,700-$4,500 to obtain that "elsewhere."

Exactly.

You aren't buying fluency, you are buying access to a non-personalized automated mailing list of youtube (etc) links to stuff uploaded by other people (usually in violation of copyrights).

You're still going to have to put in just as much effort as a non-subscriber to actually learn, minus the "finding media" bit, which I honestly think takes almost no time at all

JimmySeal Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:2) Yes I believe $600 is a good price for Japanese fluency,

You're repeating the same fallacy I've already corrected twice in this thread.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144484

Whatever the price actually is, you get 0 vocabulary and 0 grammar for that price. That all comes from elsewhere, and going by Khatz's own program description, you should be prepared to spend $2,700-$4,500 to obtain that "elsewhere."

Haha what is he on about? The only money I've spent on Japanese was a $50 textbook at the very beginning but even that wasn't necessary.

JimmySeal Wrote:

aphasiac Wrote:2) Yes I believe $600 is a good price for Japanese fluency,

You're repeating the same fallacy I've already corrected twice in this thread.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid144484

Whatever the price actually is, you get 0 vocabulary and 0 grammar for that price. That all comes from elsewhere, and going by Khatz's own program description, you should be prepared to spend $2,700-$4,500 to obtain that "elsewhere."

If I understand the next three paragraphs of aphasiac's post correctly, it seems that what he means by that is something like "$600 is a good price for hiring a personal trailer who is going to lead you to Japanese fluency."

Isn't it a bit harsh to comment on the sentence after taking it out of its context, as if it was to be taken litterally?