IceCream Wrote:btw, that's a HORRIBLE analogy

Is it horrible, or just horribly silly?

gdaxeman Wrote:

nohika Wrote:As for the "it's just $1000"? Please, please lend me the money so I can spend it like that - for nothing, really. I'm a student and I don't know very many of us with that kind of money.

That's the problem: students don't make money. If you want $1000 to be pocket change for you, you need to do things differently.

I think this is part of the problem with this discussion. It sounds like there are a lot of students who are of the mindset that $1000 or $60/month is a lot of money. I know, I used to be in that position. Even spending $20 was a lot for me. Students have way more time than money so to them this seems like a definite rip-off because they can just spend their time to learn things.

nadiatims Wrote:Will you ask for your time back too?

I don't get this at all. Will my Japanese get worse by doing SilverSpoon?

buonaparte Wrote:matto,
you seem to be Radical Supporter 170. Are you from that Gifu?
(岐阜)

I don't see how you can say I'm a radical supporter just for one non-negative post about the program. I've read his site from time to time but don't follow it closely. I heard an interview with him once and couldn't believe it. His speaking was all over the map just like his writing. He could barely stay on one topic for more than a few seconds.
Yes I'm from 岐阜市。

nadiatims Wrote:I don't understand why it annoys you so much that people criticise khatz and his methods. I and I think others have given all sorts of concrete reasons why. Isn't this one of the purposes of the forum?

I think it's gone beyond that though - to the point of almost personal attacks. We're just going round in circles - everyone is making the same points over and over. Thing is, as icecream says most of this arguing is against an imagined strawman - that khatz is seen as a guru and has followers who believe everything he says - which I don't think is true. Seeing his site as a positive thing is not the same as believing and following everything he does.

Also more importantly I think the way people who have actually bought Silverspoon have been treated is pretty disgusting. People have attacked them, implied that they're lazy, unmotivated, stupid, wasting their money etc etc.

They have basically been bullied and will unlikely ever return here. That's really not how I though this forum worked.

aphasiac Wrote:Also more importantly I think the way people who have actually bought Silverspoon have been treated is pretty disgusting. People have attacked them, implied that they're lazy, unmotivated, stupid, wasting their money etc etc.

Where does this happen? I've heard people say that Silverspooners are wasting their money, but I don't recall them being told they are lazy, unmotivated or stupid. (Granted, I don't think I've read through the AJATT Silverspoon thread completely. I've read this one through though.)

(Of course, people have said that Khatz is stupid, or that doing Silverspoon is a bad idea, but that's not the same thing as saying that the people who do Silverspoon are stupid.)

read through this and the specific silverspoon thread again carefully - you'll see it implied again and again.

Btw, do you think this thread fits with forum guidelines?

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=180

Quote:Be supportive. This forum is first and foremost a means for Reviewing The Kanji (RevTK) members, to support, encourage and help each other to complete the Remembering the Kanji (RtK) method.

Because of this, discussions on alternatives or modifications to James Heisig's original method will only be tolerated so long as their are done in a positive manner and aim to help members to reach their goal (be it completing RTK or attaining kanji literacy).

This website is a labour of love, and animosity or competition will not be tolerated.

I'm amazed at how reasonable and positive Khatzumoto's critics have been in the face of such unrelenting, often personal negativity. Bravo to Thora and Tzadeck, et al.

I think some are losing perspective into just what is being criticized. Had Silverspoon been put into book form rather than daily emails with a retail price of $600, would anyone buy it? I think anyone who did would be thought of as insane. There is almost no overhead involved with distributing the exact same information electronically.

aphasiac Wrote:Also more importantly I think the way people who have actually bought Silverspoon have been treated is pretty disgusting. People have attacked them, implied that they're lazy, unmotivated, stupid, wasting their money etc etc.

They have basically been bullied and will unlikely ever return here. That's really not how I though this forum worked.

Going through the threads a bit again, this seems like a big exaggeration. Nobody has been bullied; nobody has been told they're lazy and unmotivated; nobody has called any forum member stupid (though people have said that doing Silverspoon is stupid, and that Khatz is stupid).

Rather, it seems like a pretty standard heated argument.

If I missed something, which is always possible since I didn't read every word, please quote it.

nest0r Wrote:I'm amazed at how reasonable and positive Khatzumoto's critics have been in the face of such unrelenting, often personal negativity. Bravo to Thora and Tzadeck, et al.

I wouldn't say there was anything "reasonable and positive" about the OP that started this thread. Are you really surprised it turned into what it is? With an OP like that there's no way it would have sparked a civil debate.

Tzadeck Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:btw, that's a HORRIBLE analogy

Is it horrible, or just horribly silly?

hahah

... i do think that's the 1st one i've ever seen you do, though.

re: aphasiac's point, they were mainly in this thread: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7966

apart from the guy who was called a fanatical supporter a few pages ago.

Offshore Wrote:I wouldn't say there was anything "reasonable and positive" about the OP that started this thread. Are you really surprised it turned into what it is? With an OP like that there's no way it would have sparked a civil debate.

quoted for truth.

Offshore Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:I'm amazed at how reasonable and positive Khatzumoto's critics have been in the face of such unrelenting, often personal negativity. Bravo to Thora and Tzadeck, et al.

I wouldn't say there was anything "reasonable and positive" about the OP that started this thread. Are you really surprised it turned into what it is? With an OP like that there's no way it would have sparked a civil debate.

I would say it's reasonable and positive, or clever, accurate, and amusing; I can't imagine how anyone would find it negative and unreasonable, and it especially doesn't justify the negative, unreasonable comments that threads critical of Khatzumoto always incur. I'm just amazed despite the best efforts to paint Khatz's critics as hysterical and ad hominem and drag these threads through the muck, we've managed to prevent that from happening. Bravo again, RevtKers. ;p

I like trolls who mock ridiculous notions accepted as gospel by fanatics. Humor often works more effectively after offering direct facts has proven to be in vain. I am a also a big fan Bill Maher, Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert for the same reasons.

aphasiac Wrote:They have basically been bullied and will unlikely ever return here. That's really not how I though this forum worked.

It's been like this for quite a while. At least since my join date.

Most of the intelligent discussions about language acquisition take place on forums that are heavily moderated, require payment, or both. The rest just turn into trolling and personal attacks. There are lots of good links here, but the discussion is always trite, petty and childish.

Only when people have their living gods criticized does it turn trite, petty and childish. Otherwise, I have found it to be one of the most civil and intelligent forums out there.

Now now, no need to deify the koohii forums. There's plenty of bs here too. There's plenty of bs to go around.

matto Wrote:

buonaparte Wrote:matto,
you seem to be Radical Supporter 170. Are you from that Gifu?
(岐阜)

I don't see how you can say I'm a radical supporter just for one non-negative post about the program. I've read his site from time to time but don't follow it closely. I heard an interview with him once and couldn't believe it. His speaking was all over the map just like his writing. He could barely stay on one topic for more than a few seconds.
Yes I'm from 岐阜市。

It was an innocent joke of mine. An explanation is needed, I'm afraid.
One of the names of classical radical 170 is ぎふのふ。　岐阜の阜。 (I just noticed you're from Gifu.)
I have nothing against Khatz, his supporters or anybody else.
I'm reading this thread to improve my wobbly English understanding. I don't understand the whole Silverspoon thing.
Could someone please explain it in plain English? What does Khatz offer? What's the content? Are there any samples so that I can have a look?

buonaparte Wrote:Could someone please explain it in plain English? What does Khatz offer? What's the content? Are there any samples so that I can have a look?

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...-you-there
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7966
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...-speak-out

buonaparte Wrote:It was an innocent joke of mine. An explanation is needed, I'm afraid.
One of the names of classical radical 170 is ぎふのふ。　岐阜の阜。 (I just noticed you're from Gifu.)

Ok, that went way over my head then No worries.

tokyostyle Wrote:There are lots of good links here, but the discussion is always trite, petty and childish.

oh tokyostyle, you sure you want to say that.? ;-) Always? "trite, petty, and childish? Well la de dah! haha I often find your posts amusing b/c you're direct and have some entertaining descriptions. But I've had to resist responding to a few that I'd say would win some prizes. Perhaps I should start a new thread to list all those since I'm so popular now. haha

Okay, just one - from the beginning of this thread:

tokyostyle Wrote:I do get my $2 a day out of it but the amount of money he's asking for is so small that it amuses me that someone would make a post that is nothing more than, "Whaaaa I can't afford it so no one should be able to either!"

So, I'm envious of Silverspooners because I'm too poor to afford it. And so I made this thread. Why did you post this??

(Also, it doesn't make much sense. Are you implying that a larger amount have made it more reasonable for someone to make the post for those reasons?) ??

Listen, not everyone considers $1000 "so small", especially given what SS is. There are several comments at AJATT by people who desperately want it but either cannot afford it or balk at the price. But I think you conceded later in the thread that it would be a significant amount for others (just not yourself.)

Quote:Why is there no outrage that universities are charging three times what Khatzu is for massively inferior products?

A serious question? The Silverspoon product (what product is that exactly?) is massively superior to university class materials? Nope.

It sounds suspiciously like AJATT-speak. It's just so...big and bold. Outrage. Massively inferior. As opposed to a more nuanced, serious, and mature sounding posts. hehe But I'd be interested to hear how you came to that conclusion maybe in a future "classes" thread?

I think this has to be the most disciplined I have ever seen a forum group. No one criticizing Silverspoon besides Thora seems to be saying what they really think.

I had no strong opinion of AJATT until I heard of this scam. He was organizing mostly commonsense advice accepted already by most users on this forum onto his website. He has the programing skills to accomplish such a task, so it seemed to be a good thing. It would have been better if he had bilingual versions of his blogs so people could actually utilize his system on his site, but that might be dangerous given his claims. The begging African child is a bit tacky, but that is maybe just me.

If Khatz were to sell the same information in book form at $600, who would buy it?
If you saw the text at your local bookstore, would you purchase it?
If he sold you water that could remember the anime he had playing in his apartment, would you buy it to absorb that information internally?

I am sorry, but people who attempt to gain wealth by praying on the naive are the lowest form of being in my opinion.

I think there is some kind of contradictio in adjecto in Kanemoto's Golden Spoon offer.
18 months is hell of a lot of time, you can certainly become fluent if you spend 10 hours a day.
On the other hand, anyone who needs to be spoonfed to become proficient doesn't seem to be intelligent enough to get anywhere near fluency.

Offshore Wrote:I wouldn't say there was anything "reasonable and positive" about the OP that started this thread. Are you really surprised it turned into what it is? With an OP like that there's no way it would have sparked a civil debate.

IceCream Wrote:quoted for truth.

Seriously? So maybe I should have attempted a nice little parody with no negativity, no exaggeration, no sarcasm and none of Khatzumoto's own ideas. Right. So now silly attempts at creativity and humour are banned along with negativity and criticism and selected topics?

And I guess you didn't notice the "wannabe internet huckster", the "guru follower civil disobedience", the request for payments to me, and the bit about the pet insurance for the End of World.

Do those sound like total anger to you? Did you not detect a whiff of Khatzumotonian style? No bold and provocative? No exaggerated and weird in order to create buzz? No manufacture some conflict? No crazy title? No buzzwords? No sarcasm? No satire in there at all? Oh well. I guess I failed at channelling my inner Khatz.

I could have made a completely serious first post and linked to articles on teenage media literacy, guru businesses, deceptive marketing and cult traits, but what's the fun in that? It's about having fun, right? (See how I slipped back into character there?) (And mentioned myself being in character is like a double in character.) Besides, I was hoping some people would actually read it.

I think talking about the messed up guarantee and the new refunds is a good thing. I'm perfectly fine with everything I've written. There's no bullying or defamation, so don't worry about that. Incidentally, something true cannot be defamation. But I think we covered that the last time IceCream labelled my criticisms as being "thinly veiled as a public interest crusade". I obviously haven't needed any pretext [in the past] to criticize AJATT, so I'm still not sure what that's about. If I enjoyed criticizing AJATT just for kicks, I wouldn't have waited this long [since the last time]. ;p [timing clarified for icecream]

I fight to get bad stuff changed to help other people. That's my job. (haha I sound like a superhero) Try just accepting it IceCream. (Unfortunately, I'm useless on the internet.)

But I think Nest0r was actually referring to later in the thread when no one reacted to the insults or emotion introduced by some [defenders]. Tzadeck calmly dealt with Aphasia's rather dramatic accusations. I found it puzzling that the [defenders] promptly called the critics insults like fanatic, hater, petty bitching, loser, bitter troll, envious, boring in posts criticizing us for being negative. Why? I'm not offended or bothered by the comments. Just puzzled.

I'd prefer to think about the substantive stuff here rather than RTK drama.

edit: [defenders] and in [ ]

Offshore Wrote:I wouldn't say there was anything "reasonable and positive" about the OP that started this thread. Are you really surprised it turned into what it is? With an OP like that there's no way it would have sparked a civil debate.

IceCream Wrote:quoted for truth.

Apparently satire can be neither reasonable nor positive. Did not realize that. I guess you learn something new every day!

@Thora

Pretty much. There's all this nasty name-calling and hostile defensiveness, repeated ad hominem or thread/forum-dismissing accusations and insults simply for criticising Khatzumoto and responding to people who try to silence the criticism or insult the critics. Yet in all the time you and Tzadeck in particular have critiqued Khatzumoto and been hit with these attacks, in any thread, I don't think I've once seen you lose your temper or lower yourself to the sorts of juvenile attacks folks throw your way.

It's funny though, when you compare Khatzumoto's Silverspoon with legitimate language-related business concerns. It seems to lack even the most remotely professional arrangements. It's basically just like handing him a bag of cash in exchange for some exorbitant, flighty promises.

I think in pretty much any forum, there are gonna be those who can tolerate differences of opinion and then there are those who are quick to take things personally and call people trolls etc. I think both types are generally present on both sides of most debates. I don't really give a crap if someone on the internet calls me a troll or not, I'd rather people just attempted to explain their ideas but whatever.