matto Wrote:Wow. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

matto,
you seem to be Radical Supporter 170. Are you from that Gifu?
(岐阜)

matto Wrote:Why will I purchase it? Because I have previously studied French, German, Croatian and Mandarin but never got to a point where I was comfortable with the language. While I pick up some things quickly, languages does not appear to be one of them.

Did you ever ask yourself why you weren't comfortable with those languages? Did you ever analyse the difference in knowledge between you and those who are comfortable? Did you ever examine the difference in methodology between you and the successful learners? I guarantee there were concrete reasons why you failed. Why not address them? What is it the natives have/know that you don't? knowledge and years of practice? Go accumulate that. Start chipping away at that block of requisite knowledge (vocabulary, grammar whatever) and start practicing.

matto Wrote:$1000 is a great deal for being fluent in under two years and if not, then I'll ask for my money back.

Will you ask for your time back too?

matto Wrote:I can't believe the amount of negativity (and most likely jealousy) for him.

This isn't about jealousy or spite or hammering nails or even money. It's about a lot of people with experience warning others that maybe his advice is not very good a lot of the time.

mezbup Wrote:Khatz gave good solid advice back when I needed it most. On my one of my very first days of learning Japanese when I decided the crappy little Japanese phrasebook I'd bought from the bookstore was not the way to go.

You guys can rag on him all you want but at the end of the day, I followed his advice and it worked. Hard.

Though I will say I don't agree with the silverspoon thing. And $150 a month for it would make you not just insane but clinically insane. Seriously, everything you need to know is written right there on his blog. It doesn't matter if you don't like his humour (I enjoyed it), what matters is you glean the information on the basic "AJATT" principle.

I know he's kinda douchey but I'm glad he was there for me when I needed him. Nuff said.

Same thing happened to me, the beginning phases I followed his advice and it helped me so much.

@ice cream

I completely agree that it's hard to keep all the different skills going at the same time, and the people here that make these big leaps in progress often seem to do it by focussing heavily on a couple. For fluency in my mind you need to be hitting at least reading, listening and speaking on a variety of topics with a variety of people pretty well. But then we round back the the definition fluency debate which has been done to death as much as the AJATT debate


The more I think about the whole silverspoon thing the more bonkers it sounds *but* if people are significantly more motivated by it than other any other method it would be worth it. Despite the high price and despite the fact they wont be fluent in 18 months (by my view of fluent).

matto Wrote:I don't see how in any way this is a scam.

Is there any evidence that even one person in all the years he has maintained his site has gone from zero to fluent in 18 months? If not, it is a scam.

No one is jealous of Khatz for making money off naive students, nor of Benny Hinn and James Van Praagh for getting rich off their miracle claims

Does anyone else find this thread amusing for the same reasons I do?

For example: A vast majority of the people here undoubtedly found this site (or at least Remembering the Kanji) through AJATT, and now all you can do is bash him and say he gives bad advise.

I'd say it's really nothing more than envy. You're not warning anyone about how his advise sometimes isn't good, as so much of his advise is followed by every member on his forum. Don't try to kid yourself, just admit you are jealous you didn't monetize this before he did.

Vegeta, what does your scouter say about their Butthurt level?

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Vegeta, what does your scouter say about their Butthurt level?

8000!

Ryuujin27 Wrote:A vast majority of the people here undoubtedly found this site (or at least Remembering the Kanji) through AJATT, and now all you can do is bash him and say he gives bad advise.

I'd say it's really nothing more than envy. You're not warning anyone about how his advise sometimes isn't good, as so much of his advise is followed by every member on his forum. Don't try to kid yourself, just admit you are jealous you didn't monetize this before he did.

I had never heard of the guy until a couple of years ago. When I finally did visit his site, I found nothing new in what he was saying. It was all very typical of what all of us who were learning Japanese in other than a university settings were saying, besides the BS claims about speed of fluency. It is the oldest trick in the book. Tell people what they already know and they will think you are a genius.

ta12121 Wrote:Same thing happened to me, the beginning phases I followed his advice and it helped me so much.

Are you sure of that? Maybe finding and reading his advice just more or less coincided with starting to study seriously, as it did for me. I mean obviously you were serious enough about it to (I'm guessing) do an internet search. So yeah, the logic of AJATT immediately appears superior to (for example) half-arsed selfstudy and/or poorly taught high school or uni classes. Following the AJATT advice will improve your ability more than doing nothing. Doing anything is better than nothing. I think for me the turning point came when I realised I was still learning despite massively slacking off on all the SRSing, sentence mining, monodicking (lol), constant immersion, time-boxing etc that he seems to think is so important. His approach and much of this forum takes something that should be (relatively) effortless and fun (language learning) and turns it into a complex task requiring a lot of life adjustment, use of tools, spending of money, tracking of data etc.

nadiatims Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Same thing happened to me, the beginning phases I followed his advice and it helped me so much.

Are you sure of that? Maybe finding and reading his advice just more or less coincided with starting to study seriously, as it did for me. I mean obviously you were serious enough about it to (I'm guessing) do an internet search. So yeah, the logic of AJATT immediately appears superior to (for example) half-arsed selfstudy and/or poorly taught high school or uni classes. Following the AJATT advice will improve your ability more than doing nothing. Doing anything is better than nothing. I think for me the turning point came when I realised I was still learning despite massively slacking off on all the SRSing, sentence mining, monodicking (lol), constant immersion, time-boxing etc that he seems to think is so important. His approach and much of this forum takes something that should be (relatively) effortless and fun (language learning) and turns it into a complex task requiring a lot of life adjustment, use of tools, spending of money, tracking of data etc.

His advice made sense to me and plus I was looking for ways of becoming fluent. I researched about classes,university courses,peoples experiences,etc. Because in the past I tried learning languages to no avail. It made sense what he was saying, the srs,immersion,reading,having fun. It all clicked for me but in the beginning I was obsessed with becoming fluent(I srsed insane amounts daily and immerse extreme amounts). I now know, it should be done like that. It really comes down to maintaining, rather than anything else. I know posses the patience and endurance to do srsing for the long-term. I can dive into jp material for days and days without ever feeling bored(well granted it's fun). And I definitely feel I will own this language if I keep going.

nadiatims Wrote:monodicking (lol)

I'm not sure I understand it correctly. You mean 'using monolingual dictionaries'? An intersting thread. It does improve my English.
Is there a Silver Spoon for English somewhere?

I just don't get it. He's obviously trying to sell his product, but what's the major problem with it? Does it affect you so much?

It's simply a way for people who know what they have to do yet lack some necessary resource/motivation to do so get it done. He tells you what to do and when to do it, taking out all the tedious planning that needs to be done. That sounds liberating to me. If I still needed it, I'd sign up.

Where's that guy who's currently doing Silver Spoon because he has so many responsibilities and so little time to actually study Japanese? Did he weigh in here yet?

matto Wrote:My Japanese girlfriend has spent way more than $1000 learning English and while her English is decent it is far from fluent. $1000 is a great deal for being fluent in under two years and if not, then I'll ask for my money back.

People keep saying this as though if you use SilverSpoon, it is the only money you will ever need to spend on language learning ever. Even on his page he says you should have $150-$250/month ready to spend on learning materials on top of his program.

And yes, with that factored in, it's still less money than some language classes are, but I don't think anyone's suggesting those as an alternative anyway.

I've probably spent a few 100's now on Jp learning. Buying books,manga,games,etc. Not sure how much I will spend when I reach my goals.

Dear people who would do Silverspoon or buy subscriptions from AJATT: Rather than wasting your money on any of the dated, diluted, or simply bad advice AJATT offers because you don't think you have enough time, especially with that terrible refund scheme Thora mentioned, I freely advise you to spend some time up front getting an overview from various language learning sites (RevTK, How to Learn Any Language, various bloggers such as AJATT [for the blogs be extra sure to avoid the temptation for centralized, top-down spoonfeeding dynamics]), and design your own methodology. It doesn't need to be perfect right off the bat, what's important is that you're learning how to learn better even as you learn the language.

If you still think you should pay someone to do that work for you: don't—at the least pay someone to show you, tutoring you in a brief period of time, how to do it yourself, even though most people will do that for free if you but ask, and I recommend against paying for systems that operate long-term but have only short-term testimonials, especially 100% glowing testimonials from people with little experience with anything else and who feel pressured to be positive because they've become web-friends with the person they're paying. Think of their opinions as about as valid as members of a pyramid scheme.

Good luck! You'll find many original and superior ideas here at RevTK and elsewhere. Don't be suckered into thinking that AJATT created ideas like immersion and spaced retrieval, or even that most people learned of those things from AJATT and that you somehow owe Khatzumoto lots of money.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I had never heard of the guy until a couple of years ago. When I finally did visit his site, I found nothing new in what he was saying. It was all very typical of what all of us who were learning Japanese in other than a university settings were saying, besides the BS claims about speed of fluency. It is the oldest trick in the book. Tell people what they already know and they will think you are a genius.

nest0r Wrote:Good luck! You'll find many original and superior ideas here at RevTK and elsewhere. Don't be suckered into thinking that AJATT created ideas like immersion and spaced retrieval, or even that most people learned of those things from AJATT and that you somehow owe Khatzumoto lots of money.

Khatz has never ever claimed that what he did was original. It's all there on his blog - he took the ideas of SRSing sentences and immersion from Antimoon, added a few of his own touches (learn from manga / anime, it should be fun) and then wrote out a pretty detailed path to fluency for any beginner.

That's the difference - he created a step by step plan that anyone can follow. If this is available on other sites for free, then please link them! oh and make sure they're dated before 2007 - if his ideas were wholly unoriginal, there must be tons of these sites site around?

Here's what I don't understand from all of you people whining about this guy.

How could spending 1000 dollars on "Snake oil Khatz" possibly be detrimental to your progress? Are you claiming that this 'rip off' will not possibly improve your Japanese at all? OKAY, yes, it's kind of dubious to claim fluency. I saw that video of Khatz speaking and yes, it didn't seem all that magical. However, I don't see how 18 months of doing Japanese daily could possibly not improve you to a high level. It comes down more to the individual. Are they practicing outside of whatever Khatz' mantra is?

I bet with Khatz' guidance and your own practice and exposure to the language, you could improve a lot.

nadiatims Wrote:righty then, so why do you or anyone else need silverspoon again?

As the advertisement says no one needs it. It's a complete waste of money, etc, etc. I have it because it keeps me on the wagon.

nadiatims Wrote:Just read more. The hardest part of JLPT is always the reading section.

My reading ability is crap. I don't know a lot of written only grammar and my kanji is complete shit. Both from a recognition Heisig-style perspective and from an actual compound word-comprehension perspective. Most of the words I use on a daily basis I still can't read. (I like people so speaking and listening were easy for me. Reading and writing is incredibly hard in comparison.)

nadiatims Wrote:Get a decent dictionary.

I already have one and it's J<->J.

nadiatims Wrote:wait a minute. I thought he was a big proponent of cloze-deletion SRS cards.

Those things are completely useless! Even if he is then I will happily ignore that. He's also a fan of listening to stuff while you sleep which is terrible for you. That's actually part of his blog though, ignore his advice that doesn't work.

Are these not fill in the blank cards? Wasn't this the whole point of his MCD cards (or whatever they were called)...?

nadiatims Wrote:The idea that having a kanji poster, having a bookshelf full of books you can't read and listening to music you can't understand 24/7 is necessary or even desirable is ridiculous. As is the idea of replacing all your media with Japanese equivalents.

I know for a fact that listening to stuff you can't understand helps quite a bit. Replacing everything with Japanese stuff makes a huge difference. However doing ONLY that is useless. You have to also have active learning and the active learning is definitely more important than the passive learning. I feel I get small, measurable, incremental progress with active learning, but my massive leaps are through passive learning.

I have only one problem with silverspoon and that is the unproven claim it makes of fluency in 18 months. Why can't he just make honest claims and then charge what ever he wants?

@aphasiac
You don't have to go all around the internet to find the advice he gives. Most every study method out there has been debunked or vetted by a process of (often heated) opposing opinions offered on this forum. They are all free and presumably more reliable than one, be it entertainingly written, unchallenged view.

My two cents.

I don't know Khatz any more than they next guy, so take this with a grain of salt. When you first stumble across his site and get to know the man himself he makes a claim he was able to become fluent in 18 months and hence land a job in Japan. This claim is astounding, one that really struck me when I read it. Not only did he learn the language in such a short amount of time but he then parlayed this into getting a job based off of his mastery of the language, or so it sounded. Well fast forward 3 years now, all of which I have spent living in Japan and meeting numerous amount of foreigners over here from all walks of life who have for one reason or another started a life in Japan. Out of all of these foreigners (who don't teach English for a living) the one profession that by far and a way stands out in terms of not needing much Japanese skill if any is programming/computer engineer. Foreign programmers/engineers are in such high demand over here they have the pick of the lot and the majority of the time are not expected to have good Japanese much less be fluent. Now getting back to Khatz, I dont know him from Adam and he could very well be fluent, but they fact that he landed a job over here programming leads me to believe that the slightest ability to speak the language would have went a long way for him. Fluent in 18 months? I don't think so. Had the basics down in 18 months and then came over here and became flent afterwards? Possibly.

Anyways, I am thankful I found him because through him I found this site but I do think the crux of his evidence/proof is slightly misleading.

aphasiac Wrote:then wrote out a pretty detailed path to fluency for any beginner.

That's the difference - he created a step by step plan that anyone can follow. If this is available on other sites for free, then please link them! oh and make sure they're dated before 2007 - if his ideas were wholly unoriginal, there must be tons of these sites site around?

I'm sorry, but his site is not easy to follow at /all/. I browsed it once or twice and am still hopelessly confused. There are a bajillion articles on there and no logic or easy way to read them whatsoever.

I think AJATT is a bunch of bullhonkey and that Khatz is arrogant and self-serving. But that's just my opinion. Everyone learns differently and has different goals.

Blech. I need to go to bed. I'm not really making sense. I do think his claims to fluency are bullhonkey as well.

Edit: As for the "it's just $1000"? Please, please lend me the money so I can spend it like that - for nothing, really. I'm a student and I don't know very many of us with that kind of money. I can barely afford gas and paying my bills, much less learning materials.

nohika Wrote:I'm sorry, but his site is not easy to follow at /all/. I browsed it once or twice and am still hopelessly confused. There are a bajillion articles on there and no logic or easy way to read them whatsoever.

There's a table of contents that organizes everything for you.

nohika Wrote:Edit: As for the "it's just $1000"? Please, please lend me the money so I can spend it like that - for nothing, really. I'm a student and I don't know very many of us with that kind of money. I can barely afford gas and paying my bills, much less learning materials.

SilverSpoon is definitely not for people with more time than money. It's definitely only useful for people with more money than time.

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Sorry for the non-sequiter double-post but I think parts of this thread have made it into the SilverSpoon banner rotation. Congratulations to all of the winners!

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Haha, I'm on at least three banners from what I've seen so far.

I wonder how meta this will get. Let me try one:

I hope this ends up on the SilverSpoon banner, because Khatz sucks.

(Incidentally, I find the banners pretty hilarious. Also, I wouldn't say "Khatz sucks" except as a meta-joke.)