hey kids, stop making the thread longer! You're going to get my precious thread closed and I still haven't responded to my other favourite in-group girl icecream. ;p And sendaidan wrote something interesting back at pg 4 that I wanted to get to. haha Behave.

Quote:Thora also called dtcamero and tokyostyle “love”, is that what you mean? I don't think Thora is a fangirl of theirs.

Am so. :-) (I figure if I smother them with gooey affection, they'll be so weirded out I'll be safe for a bit. And dtcamero is really young and needs my care.) heh

Nest0r, you're putting me on a pedestal I don't deserve. Are you in the market for a guru?

When I start criticising you in 3 years you can point to those comments as evidence of me being fickle.

Tefhel Wrote:Personally ... I think all that can be said on this topic probably has been already.

Nest0r Wrote:..plus the thread title is more clear now...

Probably true, Tefhel. Rather than revive the thread whenever Khatz announces a new sale opening, I asked about adding "AJATT Silverspoon" to the title thinking it might show up on a google search. But I'm an internet idiot and discovered that's not how google works - it keeps the old title. haha. I actually don't know how google search results works.

As for the thread length:
As nest0r said, it's not 2O pages of SS criticism. There's also plenty of attempts to silence critics and defence of the right to criticize, ajatt/SS defence, interpersonal tangents, other related topics, other not-so-related topics. Kind of hard to control?

The length might be a turn off, but someone searching for info could skim through to find relevant bits. I also believe there are enough ajatt/RevTK hybrid people (Revjatt's? sorry) that discussing it here was worthwhile. I'm just positive like that. ;-)

[split post - too long]

Tefhel Wrote:But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really?

About half this thread is people defending AJATT, and you've managed to fill up almost a whole page worth of comments yourself in this fight with nest0r. So it's not like it's just 22 pages of people talking shit about AJATT.

nest0r Wrote:For the type of language learner who wants to get ripped off? Very useful.

It's not a rip-off. It might be over-priced, like the cost of diamonds thanks to diamond cartels, but you get exactly what it says there in the "What You Do Get" section.

Thora Wrote:Who SS buyers are doing business with, where they are located and what law applies is basic expected information.

Unfortunately after checking a few other online merchants that does not seem to be the case. Thus I am now very curious why you believe that when the accepted standard is having all of that information available. In any case you get all of the following from PayPal as part of your transaction statement: business name, business email, business url, business phone number. Although I don't see anywhere that specifically mentions it is in the US you can tell by the phone number.

Thora Wrote:By "shut him down pretty fast", are you saying that if there were problems with refunds 18 months down the road, buyers could write a negative review about a seller on paypal? Paypal's dispute resolution wouldn't deal with this. It's for payment/refund/return of goods within in a time limit.

If someone has serious buyers remorse within the first 45 days then the refund has to come quickly. I don't see how the terms written on his website would protect him from the wrath of PayPal.

In any case we're still arguing about things without any information. The first SS round with the new 18 month refund policy has not yet started. Since everything Khatzu ever does is just an experiment we'll know exactly if it worked for him or not. Either the policy stays in place for future rounds or it gets replaced with something new.

[split from previous post b/c it's actually a response to aphasia's various posts on politeness and defamation]

We all have our own style of delivery. You get to know whether things are meant more for effect or are meant to be taken literally or legally. (For eg, if boddhi says that politicians are murdering homeless people, we know he doesn't really mean murder in a legal sense.) On the other hand, even though people are less likely to take internet forum comments too seriously, I think it's important to avoid stating that individuals have actually committed crimes or anything known to be untrue that would seriously damage their reputation. But stuff like "people buying this are insane/suckers" or "Bush is a thief" are okay. As are other some comments that seemed to get you riled up.

The higher tolerance for criticism of public figures could apply to Khatzumoto to some degree. As an extreme, intentionally controversial and often sharply critical comedic internet persona, he can't expect the same treatment we would extend to a regular member here. I bet he can handle folks "being mean" (after all, the blog is designed to get a reaction.) He probably enjoys the publicity most of the time. But it's important not to take it too far in a way that people could take seriously.

aphasia, I think your outrage threshold is a bit too low. In this thread, I think you've reacted somewhat emotionally and exaggerated a bit to make your points. (Tzadeck responded to that calmly.) That's fine, you have your own style. But I did mention finding your personal insults to be out place. Yet you were the one to twice invoke Fabrice's politeness guidelines! (btw, the bits you bolded were about criticizing Heisig's method given that this is a RTK site, not about criticizing any methods.)

So... here's the compromise I would propose for future threads: ajatt defenders could chill about stuff like "buyers are insane/suckers" and ajatt critics could tone it down a bit when it comes to accusations. That might reduce threads by half. :-)

Tefhel Wrote:It's just oddly vehement anger. There are plenty of things that I consider a waste of money, or something only idiots would buy. But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really? A few people here are abnormally emotional about it, that's all I'm saying - such that their criticism seems borne out of some other emotion than mere disinterest in/dislike of a product. I'd expect to hear less bitching and vitriol from one of Khatz's jilted lovers.

I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory (a meaningless one, as we have no idea what contract SS-ers signed).

The irony of course is despite all this hatred, the comments from actual SS sign-ups on here and on their blogs is overwhelmingly positive; they love the product! Maybe that'll change a year from now, but still seems this has gone far beyond trying to save people from ripped off, into something more personal and grudge-like..!

aphasiac Wrote:I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory (a meaningless one, as we have no idea what contract SS-ers signed).

The irony of course is despite all this hatred, the comments from actual SS sign-ups on here and on their blogs is overwhelmingly positive; they love the product! Maybe that'll change a year from now, but still seems this has gone far beyond trying to save people from ripped off, into something more personal and grudge-like..!

It really doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience arguing with people.

You're right that the Japanese business law thing is basically irrelevant to the core of this discussion, and it was basically introduced ad-hoc as another way to criticize AJATT. But, that's how people make arguments on BOTH sides of every argument ever made by anyone. It's just human nature.

I've argued with people a ton in my short life, partly because I was a philosophy major, partly because I'm stubborn, and partly because before I came to Japan I was an atheist living in America (which always leads to arguments, haha).

Since I'm an atheist, I'll just take the example of arguments over the existence of God. Now, really, this is a pretty narrow argument that really should only focus on an ontological question. But, if you look at people who are arguing about this question, even those who are professionals in that they have published books on the topic, there are all these OTHER arguments that are strictly speaking unrelated to whether or not God exists. Does religion cause war? Have mass murders been more inspired by religion, or atheism? Will thinking that God does not exist destroy morality? If religion goes away, will we have something to take its place as a muse in art?

All these questions arise basically because people are trying to score additional points on their side of the argument. But really, these questions have nothing to do with whether a God exists. It's just human nature that people, when arguing, try to score additional points on their side in whatever way they can.

You're failing to view this objectively--you're accusing the other side of this, without realizing that of course your side has also done this. It happens in every argument and on every side.

You're also assuming that people against SS are more emotionally invested in this then they actually are. BOTH sides continue to post rebuttals after 22 pages, so aren't both sides equally emotionally invested? The negative side may seem more emotionally invested, but it's really just that negative language is perceived in a worse way than positive language. I don't feel particularly invested in this argument emotionally, even though I've been a regular contributor throughout.

aphasiac Wrote:The irony of course is despite all this hatred, the comments from actual SS sign-ups on here and on their blogs is overwhelmingly positive; they love the product!

There have been a number of negative comments and quitters, but they were apparently deleted from the SS page. Most people who quit the program would just wash their hands of it instead of continuing on about it anyways (they got their refunds before the new policy was enacted)..

Whether current SS subscribers like the product or not is irrelevant. SS isn't an entertainment feed. The question is, are these people becoming fluent? Are they improving faster than non-subscribers? Is there a placebo effect? These are not really things that rank beginners can judge for themselves.

tokyostyle Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:For the type of language learner who wants to get ripped off? Very useful.

It's not a rip-off. It might be over-priced, like the cost of diamonds thanks to diamond cartels, but you get exactly what it says there in the "What You Do Get" section.

Is that the section that promises fluency? At any rate, it's definitely a ripoff. Exploiting new learners with false promises and bad methods in an overpriced system with zero accountability.

I'm interested that you're still posting on this forum! You seem to hate it so much, from what you've said about it. I thought you went over to the pay-only AJATT forum since you said that's the only way to ensure the forum is good?

aphasiac Wrote:

Tefhel Wrote:It's just oddly vehement anger. There are plenty of things that I consider a waste of money, or something only idiots would buy. But I don't devote a large portion of my free time to raging about those things - I mean 22 pages, really? A few people here are abnormally emotional about it, that's all I'm saying - such that their criticism seems borne out of some other emotion than mere disinterest in/dislike of a product. I'd expect to hear less bitching and vitriol from one of Khatz's jilted lovers.

I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory (a meaningless one, as we have no idea what contract SS-ers signed).

The irony of course is despite all this hatred, the comments from actual SS sign-ups on here and on their blogs is overwhelmingly positive; they love the product! Maybe that'll change a year from now, but still seems this has gone far beyond trying to save people from ripped off, into something more personal and grudge-like..!

Didn't you already write this comment? Making baseless accusations and projections caricaturing other users. Maybe you should try calming down and sticking to just assessing the system/arguments rather than attacking people. Of course, this is a brief moment where I'm not ignoring you and tokyostyle (didn't you leave this thread ages ago, multiple times?) so this recommendation isn't for my sake.

aphasiac Wrote:I agree; it's hilarious how emotionally invested the haters are on this thread! We now have posters researching Japanese business law, just to try to get a little victory

That'll happen when certain people are throwing around words like "libel."

I think it was actually "libellous" (referring to accusations of frod)

your being frodded by khatz and u aint even know it

It's time to face facts, if you have more than 10 posts in this thread, you have an obvious man crush on Khatz and you're tsundere for him.

I was defrocked by Khatzumoto. Twice.

I never saw you as the religious type, nest0r.

[ファブリス]

If you said what you have to say, why are you taking this 22 pages long?

Tomorrow I will add a 5$ membership with some extra features and oooOOOOh I will be evil personified! Fabrice is ripping us off! He's asking 5$ for something that already exists on some website somewhere in the corner of the ultraverse! How could he think we are so gullible? We can learn this by ourselves!! We don't need no stinking 5$ membership, just use dictionary and a paper bookmark and it'll do the same! Fabrice you suck, plz delete my account I don't want top participate in this community anymore!

Etc. etc.

This thread ought to be closed. It isn't about AJATT anymore, it's an e-peen match.

EDIT:

To be clearer, at the end of the day it's not healthy for the community here to foster this attitude of "ganging" up on one forum to diss on another website's product. You had 20+ pages to say what you don't like about it.

This type of threads not only fosters a me vs you attitude in regard to the other website/product it also creates more animosity in between members here through pointless arguing.

If Thora is so concerned about helpîng people not getting "ripped off", then the best way to do this is to write a few good posts on a Blogger account. That gets indexed very nicely by Google.

In other words, this thread feels like a uni directional communication. So go write on Blogger.