Jarvik7 Wrote:

loser Wrote:People rarely ever change their minds on the internet.

Yes they do.

NO THEY DON'T

See what I did there ;D

loser Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:

loser Wrote:People rarely ever change their minds on the internet.

Yes they do.

NO THEY DON'T

See what I did there ;D

Yes. They do.

See what I did there?

Hey guys, I got an email from Khatz about the pre-launch and the cost of the course is now almost $1500. He says it will probably rise for the launch (so maybe over $2000 by then?). I was considering it before but this is too much considering the refund policy. So this is one person who has had their mind changed. The daily is now over $5/day and the monthly is over $150/month (approx the same actually).

He also does not allow you to change between plans, so starting at the daily and then switching to the full to try it out would result in you paying for the days you use plus then the full cost of the course.

--- From the SS page ---

Can I upgrade from monthly to full or daily to monthly or daily to full after signing up?
Kinda. You’ll need to cancel your old subscription and then sign up again. Since the price of SilverSpoon rises with time (it’s always cheaper to sign up earlier), this may well end up costing you more. So, pricewise, I’d recommend you pick a subscription plan you can stick with through the whole game, or at least for a long time.

If that’s a dealbreaker for you, I totally understand. SilverSpoon is not for everyone. You could always hold off on joining SilverSpoon until it’s easier to switch between subscription plans, but, again, it’ll almost always be more cost effective to join earlier and stick with what you joined with, even taking into account the relative differences between plans. In AJATTland, it’s always cheaper to buy earlier

$5 a day... for an automated email?

He's trolling.. he doesn't honestly think anyone will join this, so he keeps putting the prices up to scare people off, that way if anyone does give him money.. he'll feel justified taking money from the stupid, as clearly they're too stupid to actually need it.

loser Wrote:Just look at this thread. The people who were pro-Spoon are STILL pro-Spoon, and the people who were anti-Spoon are STILL anti-Spoon, even with 19 pages worth of discussion.

People rarely ever change their minds on the internet.

i remember reading somewhere (newspaper, or a study, i forget) that arguments are more likely to solidify your own position than to change your mind.

so it's not really going to have an effect.
but to people who are undecided...

bodhisamaya Wrote:Why is AJTT blogged entirely in All English All The Time? Shouldn't there be a link so users can put the advice to use reading his own website?

He has entries in Japanese and Chinese too.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Why doesn't he have a Youtube channel so that he can give those inspirational talks in Japanese using himself as an example to what you can one day be?

There are YouTube videos of him speaking Japanese.

Gingerninja Wrote:$5 a day... for an automated email?

That's the monthly price. The daily price is $7.

I would rather use that money and go to classes and then come home and watch anime and play videogames.

Hey loser (I mean a specific user this time),
Debates I have had on the internet have been one of the most valuable sources of personal growth I have ever had. I started a little over four years ago surfing the web and my world-view has evolved to where my way of thinking now hardly resembles at all what it was before.

Most of the superstitions I clung to, but never questioned as I was surrounded by people who thought exactly as I did, were chipped away when challenged and I had no logical response. The internet is like a huge mental mirror that exposes any and all imperfections.

matto Wrote:Hey guys, I got an email from Khatz about the pre-launch and the cost of the course is now almost $1500. He says it will probably rise for the launch (so maybe over $2000 by then?). I was considering it before but this is too much considering the refund policy. So this is one person who has had their mind changed. The daily is now over $5/day and the monthly is over $150/month (approx the same actually).

He also does not allow you to change between plans, so starting at the daily and then switching to the full to try it out would result in you paying for the days you use plus then the full cost of the course.

Thanks for the information, matto.

I was kind of surprised that he sent emails to everyone who had purchased his products in the past. (Which is how I interpreted the several comments about that.) I wonder if he has that little check box about receiving future advertisements.)

One SS user had asked at the blog about switching to the post RTK version, b/c they had bought SS before realizing there would be be a post RTK version. Khatz said to stick with the old version b/c it would cost more to switch. Nice. It's not as though there would be hoards of learners wanting to switch.

Is this a case of a teacher charging a student a fee to move to the appropriate level? Or perhaps it's an admission that there's nothing really different in the post RTK version?

Another person asked if there will be a version just for people wanting to switch to monolingual. (I'm speechless...)

"Always cheaper to buy earlier." Hurry up for your chance to the join the private club! Even more special than the ajatt plus private club! Where all the serious learners are! Prove to me how serious you are by handing over your money despite the wonky refund! yech

A blogger mentions buying SS even though they weren't sure what it was b/c they would want to buy anything that the person who created ajatt creates.

Someone explains that they were progressing well with self study, but purchased SS b/c they wanted the "guaranteed fluency".

Teenagers describe wanting to get a job in order to buy SS. One mentioned that his parents won't let him send money online. One teenage is currently saving earnings from a part-time job. That person adds that: "Fluency > Dough" (My heart aches a little.)

This thread started as a parody to warn people about tossing around large amounts of money online on a unknown product with dubious claims. As it has progressed, some have called it a scam and others have said that such accusations were unjustified. I had my suspicions about the quality of the product and the value it could provide to the learner but this business about buying early and sticking with less effective plans on top of the bizarre refund policy seal the deal for me; Silverspoon is nonsense.
It seems with his policy on switching between plans that Katz is telling people to stick with an admittedly inferior method to save money. That's fair enough advice in general but in this case the better plan would only cost more because he is choosing to make it cost more. It would be easy enough to allow people to upgrade (he could even add a small fee) but to make them pay the full price for both plans is absurd. The same goes for switching from daily or monthly subscriptions to the full package. What he is saying to those people is "I recognize that you like my product enough to want to pay me a significant amount of money for it and that you are a happy customer so far. In appreciation of your support and patronage I am willing to give you nothing. In fact I advise you to stick with a plan that will in the end make you pay more for the same thing. I know you like my product but there is a price to pay for not trusting me blindly from the very beginning."

Buy now buy now buy now It will get more expensive buy now TIME IS RUNNING OUT NOW NOW NOW NOW

For $3,000, you are given instructions on how to reach Spoon Thetan level IV where you realize how drug use in past lives is preventing you from reaching fluency in this.

I feel like I'd rather just put a bunch of Japanese podcasts onto my MP3 and use that money to buy a pottery wheel. Make some nice bowls or whatever. Sounds relaxing. Or I could buy a bunch of Warhammer figurines. Or, actually? Tomorrow I'm just going to buy a ticket to Japan for November 28th.

JimmySeal Wrote:

Nagareboshi Wrote:There is a way to make it safer for both parties. 3 cheques, 1 dated at X1 + 6 months worth 400$, 2 dated at X1 + 12 months and 3 dated X1 + 18 months...

Don't you think you're taking this hypothetical discussion a bit far? Especially considering that writing a postdated check with the (potential) intent to cancel it is illegal. If you're going to ask Khatz to accept postdated checks, you're better off asking him to change his refund policy.

You are right, of course. It think I got a little carried away with this idea. *ごめんなさい*

I want to clarify one thing if its allowed. I never even thought of those people who would use it to commit cozenage. But this can happen with CC, Pay-Pal, and any other payment method that IS available as well. People who are out for this find their ways.

This new piece of information is interesting. Pay more, and this leaves only one conclusion, Its all 'bout the money. Considering that with the RTK-part falling away, this course would take less time to finish. I can only guess what his reason behind the idea to charge more money is. And if it is, it is clever of him. Yes, Messere Khatz, should you read it, you are clever.

With 2 or 3 months less, he can say that people taking his course - if you are willing to call it that, attain fluency faster than others. Thus the same crap is worth more money, which is very clever and very stupid. Because who is going to pay more for the same amount of information as opposed to those doing the full program? But judging by the examples Thora has posted, there should be as many willing to pay more for it, as there are who would do everything to get into the program. *sad*

If you call within the next ten minutes, we'll throw in this set of steak knives FREE! You just pay shipping and handling. Our operators are standing by.

SS: 595 days $2-$5 /day $1200 - $3000 ($4800 - $6600 inc. materials)

SSBB: 495 days $3-$7 /day $1500 - $3500 ($5100 - $7100 inc. materials)

100 fewer days. 83% of the time (and less content), for 25% more money (full package).

(He claims this is a bargain compared to the "$25,000~$75,000+ of boredom and no guarantee" he associates with learning Japanese in Japan. This is an extremely weird comparison given that the entire premise of ajatt.com is that folks can learn Japanese at home for nothing. And, as usual, he misrepresents other options for effect.)

All 10 comments on the latest ajatt SSBB sign up page are about the price being too high. Some also comment that there's no trial period and their money is tied up for a long time. All posts have been "liked". I think it's significant that this round has generated nothing but negative comments so far, whereas previous SS advertisements had mostly positive ones. Perhaps he will listen. [edit: linked page no longer available 2 hrs later...strange. The other SSBB advertising article is here]

Another comment that made my heart ache a bit more:

Quote:It’s really expensive. I had to join the first time, the first round, but I wasn’t enough brave, so I missed the occasion. I have to think about it (quickly), because for me it is the same as two months of work, but next time (or tomorrow) it will be twice this price or more. But… I want to believe [...], really, so I’ll take some hours to understand what is really important and how to afford SS-BB’s price.

I think Khatz risks alienating some of his followers with this SS business. The comment "You've changed, man" perhaps captures the sentiment. I see this as a good thing, though. The more ajatt is perceived as just another business, the more people will make decisions more objectively. Putting Khatz on some pedestal and "abdicating responsibility" (his bolded phrase) is the opposite of that.

His pricing and sales tactics make it more difficult to portray him as a nice generous blogger who just wanted to help people (aphasia's earlier comment.) He started a blog with the intention of eventually monetizing it. Nothing wrong with that, so why try to claim it's something different?

All who have defended S.S. thus far and read the intro to Big Boi, need to do some serious self reflection now.

Maybe, it this sink into oblivion sometime soon. However, I seriously doubt it.

Thing is, if he finds even ONE person willing to pay this ridiculous amount of money he already won. Rather than having 1000 users pay 2$ for his glorified mail-list, send them all updates, handle individual questions etc. he only has to deal with that one person!!

He keeps his day job (not to shabby if he's a programmer in Japan) and gets additional 2k$ (no-tax) for 5minutes of work a day, its completely brilliant. If he finds more clients, things will scale up well at first (just add more people to the list) but at some point it might require some actual work getting done (handle forums, unhappy customers, problems etc.) but considering his prices it will be well worth it.

Thora Wrote:All 10 comments on the latest ajatt SSBB sign up page are about the price being too high. Some also comment that there's no trial period and their money is tied up for a long time. All posts have been "liked". I think it's significant that this round has generated nothing but negative comments so far, whereas previous SS advertisements had mostly positive ones. Perhaps he will listen. [edit: linked page no longer available 2 hrs later...strange. The other SSBB advertising article is here]

Why was the page deleted?
Maybe because the comments left were all milder takes on, "WTF! Are you insane with this price??!!"

hey I think r kelly totally peed on those 14-year-old girls, yet i still listen to his music. bill clinton totally cheated on hillary by cigar-poking that ogre in the oval office, yet he led this country during one of it's greatest periods of growth.

personal foibles have nothing to do with the soundness of one's methods. the core of that site still has tremendous value...

@dtcamero:

No one is criticizing SS because khatz picks his nose or doesn't recycle.

Would you still listen to R Kelly if you had to buy his CDs for $3000 each and the only thing recorded was a bunch of public domain music that is free elsewhere?

... i still think he's just trying to find out what he can charge. seems like he's just experimenting with different prices to find out where the drop off is significant enough to stop enough people buying to make it unprofitable. Once he's figured it out, he'll probably charge a more standard rate.

i could be wrong, it's just my take on things. Again, it's his first business, isn't it? Why shouldn't he experiment with prices and find out what he can charge to get the right balance of customers & money? It's probably the most straightforward way to find out, anyway... i'm no businessperson, so it's plausible there are other ways companies use. But it seems fairly logical to me.

EDIT: oh, and about the kids who talk about getting a job just to buy silverspoon... i just don't know, this is a bit of a grey area, isn't it?

For instance, there was that chinese kid who sold a kidney to buy an ipad. Yes, there are some kids that are that impressionable. Some adults are too. How responsible should Apple be for that? (you can guarantee they are making vast amounts of profit off the sale of even one iPad. And nobody needs an iPad either.)

The people who have actually bought silverspoon whose blogs i've read don't seem to actually be the type of person who just follows everything that Khatz says blindly in an idolising manner the way that they're stereotyped to be in this thread though, on the whole... and neither do they seem to be his target marget. Usually scammers try to target exactly those people. Khatz probably just wants to make a decent living out of it.

dtcamero Wrote:personal foibles have nothing to do with the soundness of one's methods. the core of that site still has tremendous value...

Could you cite a few of the irrelevant personal foibles that people are using as reasons to not use SS? I haven't seen any.

It is not good business ethics to delete a page that has nothing but overwhelming negative reviews and post only glowing comments on the alternate page from people who just signed up.

It is also ironic that he is making the sales pitch that "You are a big boy now..."
... so I will spoon feed you???

[edit]
@Ice Cream. I hate to put this in such crude terms, but...
You gotta be shittin' me!