nest0r Wrote:There's a difference between declaring yourself for a free market and suggesting that the market is already free and free in such a way that freedom means free from criticism or influence or products being related to other products and found lacking in quality, price, and integrity.

This: “you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it” is simply not true. People say it all the time, and it's very often true when they say it, and sometimes, it even affects the exorbitant price and reduces it.

JimmySeal Wrote:Lol. Are you sure you know what a free market is?

zigmonty Wrote:Free markets rely on rational agents acting on perfect information.

Just because you can find someone willing to buy something, that doesn't mean it is priced fairly. Ordinary people aren't rational agents acting on perfect information. That's why we have laws against fraud.

Tzadeck Wrote:This is all wrong because criticizing the price of something is part of the free market. When a product is released people discuss whether or not the product is appropriate to the price, and this is sometimes done publically. It used to be discussed publically only through reviews and consumer reports, but these days thanks to the internet almost anyone can declare whether or not the price of a product is too high to be worth it.

So, by discussing the appropriateness of the price of SilverSpoon, we're actually actively partcipating in the free market. We're influencing the market, since the more criticism there is the less likely people will be to buy the product. If Khatz wants to avoid criticism he will have to change his product or its price, and that's all part of the game of the free market.

You CAN say his service is overpriced, even if customers are willing to pay money for it. That's how the free market has always worked.

Yes its poor wording on my part but contrary to what Tzadeck suggests (and what I understand others are hinting at) free market has little to do with you being able to voice your concerns for the price (this is free speech, you can say almost anything you want especially on the internet). You can criticize the guy for his practices, prices and methods but that has nothing to do with market being free. Free market in this sense means he can do whatever the hell he wants (provided law allows it) regarding his product & its prices and you can create an alternative that can undercut his business if you so desire.

thurd Wrote:I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it. You might question his business sense (cheaper=more customers) but we also don't know if its at all sustainable for him to handle more clients.

thurd Wrote:free market has little to do with you being able to voice your concerns for the price

First of all, I didn't say that criticizing products and their prices was what makes an economy a free-market economy. The degree of influence from the state is what defines an economy as free, controlled, or mixed.

But the whole idea behind laissez-faire economics is that prices and products will ultimately end up approximating the desires, habits, and demands of the public. Part of the way that ends up happening is by a discussion by the public about the merits of different businesses and services. That is EXACTLY what we are doing here--it's an integral part of making laissez-faire economics work even if it isn't what determines whether or not you call a market free or not.

(As for criticism of a product being unrelated to the type of market, for example, you could criticize the Post Office in America even though it is state-owned and therefore not part of the free market. You could theoretically also have a free market system in a country without free speech and strict laws about talking about products, although it would be an awfully weird way of doing things)

Since free-market economies are so closely related to the concept of laissez-faire economics, it's ridiculous to say that "you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it."

Basically, what you're doing is defining the appropriate price of a product as what people are willing to pay for the product. What you're missing is that ultimately the price people are willing to pay for a product is determined by a process of consumers deciding the worth of a product, and that part of this process is a discussion of the appropriate price. That's what we're doing. You could only make the claim you are making in a strictly academic sense, looking at the process from afar. But we're not looking at this in an academic sense, we're actively participating in the market.

thurd Wrote:free market has little to do with you being able to voice your concerns for the price

No. People evaluating the merits of products, and the merits of their prices, is a vital part of a free market.
Free market doesn't just mean that producers charge whatever they want for their products and consumers either pay it or don't. That is a gross oversimplification.

If people want to debate whether SS is any good or value for money is fine. That's exactly what happened in the threads for previous AJATT products, and it was all very civil.

However, I object to baseless accusations of fraud (the original post in this thread), and the bullying of SS sign-ups (implying that they are stupid / being conned / shouldn't study a language if they aren't able to work it out for themselves) in this and other threads. It's this insulting behaviour by a few selective posters that has attracted such passionate denfenders, and it's not just me that has noticed it..

Anyway this thread seems to be going round and round in a circle-jerk of negativity, and hasn't really moved on 1 month after being started. Therefore I'm going to restate my position from a previous post, and once again leave you guys to it. Have fun!

aphasiac Wrote:I feel this whole discussion is being confused by the mixing of 3 separate issues:
1) Does Silverspoon work - will the buyers end up fluent after 18 months?
2) Is Silverspoon good value for money (assuming that it works / buyers don't ask for refunds)
3) Is Khatz honest (will he disappear with the money or not issue refunds).

For me :
1) Am unsure - I'm sceptical but am willing to wait 18 months and see.
To clarify, I do believe Khatz's original claims (that he achieved a high enough level of fluency to go to a Japanese job fair, be interviewed and land a job in 18 months) simply because with the amount of time he put into learning Japanese, that sounds realistic. I'm sceptical whether this will work for others, as he's quite OCD and he probably underestimates the number of hours he put into actual studying (i.e. listening, practising speaking, learning new words, doing reps etc).

2) Yes I believe $600 is a good price for Japanese fluency, assuming that we go by the Silverspoon definition, and assuming that it works (i.e. a buyer goes from zero to fluent in that time).

Consider alternatives; Rosetta Stone is $400 for the full 1-3 Japanese package (finish it and you'll be able to just about use verbs, possessive, past tenses,a few phrases..). Also a subsidised 10 week Japanese course I did through work was £200 ($300), and that barely took us to using verbs (Oh and the tutor just used 'Japanese for busy People', so no actual original content).

As for the content (or lack of) being value for money - I see silverspoon as being the same as hiring a personal trainer. All the methods of getting fit, exercise regimes, literally everything is freely available in books at the library, in magazines or online, so why would anyone ever hire one? Yet fitness coaching (and other lifestyle coaches) are a multi-million dollar industry. People are paying for the end-result (with the main service being motivation and guidance along the way), that's it.

The way I see it, if Silverspoon is that trivial then the market will speak and several clone websites offering the same services will appear (for a cheaper price naturally).

3) Khatz offered refunds on all past AJATT products he sold, and I don't remember any complains on those. I'm willing to change my position if complains or problems appear. But for now, there's no point speculating.

I'm going to interrupt for a moment with a totally random comment about reason given for the 20-month refund: ;p

Khatzu in the SS advertisement Wrote:- To discourage casual visitors and passers-by from clogging the system with their…casualness and endless billing processing requests.
- To encourage people to be mentally prepared to play this game right through to the fourth quarter.

Some folks here thought that was a good reason:

icecream at #47 Wrote:He really does want to have only those people who really want AJATT, and are willing to stick with it for 18 months to buy it, it seems.

gdaxeman at #50 Wrote:this way, people will have to think long-term, and the desired thing would be that only committed people apply .

matt at #100 Wrote:Sure he has changed his guarantee policy but I believe it's for the good of the learning rather than for money purposes. It makes sense to me and I have no problem with it.

What if ajatt could achieve both (encourage learners to complete the full 20 months and deter tourists) by using different payment terms with the added benefits of buyers not having to bear all the risk and ajatt having more revenue certainty? A few possibilities have been mentioned so far:

[* Instant refunds as before: (thx J7, left this one out)]
* Cancellation fee. Would deter the merely curious and encourage completion.
* Financial Incentive (rebate/discount) for those who complete the full 18 months.
* Monthly/quarterly payments.
* Trial period. A 30-day sampler to satisfy the tourists and help buyers make informed decisions.
* No full refund. This is more likely to ensure serious and committed folks will register than letting people know it won't end up costing them anything b/c full refund is available (for any reason.) Comments like the following suggest to me that his policy could be counterproductive:

Quote:Remember it has a money back guarantee, so if after 18 months he's not fluent he hasn't lost anything, so what's the harm?

Monthly and daily subscriptions are also available for 2x and 2.5x the price. It's not the case that he only wants the 'truly committed' to buy.

edit: added option in []

The refund terms were changed to 18 months after a number of people signed up and then cancelled soon after (saw a number of such comments on the ajatt page and on related SS blogs).

In other words, Khatz is locking people in so they can't drop it as soon as they realize that the product isn't worth it.

It'll be interesting to see what happens after the 18 months are up and if he really gives refunds or a string of excuses as to why they can't be processed. A large percentage of people will forget to request their refund though (mail in rebate phenomenon).

Jarvik7 Wrote:AJATTPlus didn't cost a mind-baffling obscene amount of money and arguably provides more than SS (private forum).

This is definitely untrue. SilverSpoon provides much more than AJATTPlus. The reason AJATTPlus costs money is to provide a barrier for entry and to help ensure high quality discussion. Also, SilverSpoon uses everything that was discussed and tested in AJATTPlus so it contains things that aren't actually on the main/free website.

Interestingly enough it's pretty clear that SilverSpoon has several orders of magnitude of more subscribers. Even more strange, at least according to the thoughts posted in this thread, the price increases some with additional interest and not less.

When people stop paying for SS in droves then maybe the price will decrease. Given the round one pricing of SSBB I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Jarvik7 Wrote:In other words, Khatz is locking people in so they can't drop it as soon as they realize that the product isn't worth it.

It'll be interesting to see what happens after the 18 months are up and if he really gives refunds or a string of excuses as to why they can't be processed. A large percentage of people will forget to request their refund though (mail in rebate phenomenon).

So basically khatz can't win. If he doesn't issue a refund due to someone breaking the agreement, he'll be accused of theivery and fraud. If he does issue one, it's conclusive proof the SS isn't worth it..

Btw, you honestly think people are stupid enough to forget they've been doing SS for 1.5 years? Mail rebates are based around making it difficult to claim a refund; this is not even remotely similar.

aphasiac Wrote:the bullying of SS sign-ups (implying that they are stupid / being conned / shouldn't study a language if they aren't able to work it out for themselves)

Could you point out some examples of this bullying? I can't recall seeing any.

aphasiac Wrote:If he does issue one, it's conclusive proof the SS isn't worth it..

Who said that?

aphasiac Wrote:If he doesn't issue a refund due to someone breaking the agreement, he'll be accused of theivery and fraud.

What do mean by "breaking the agreement"? Do you mean being dissatisfied with the service? He offers a money back guarantee. Not honouring a money back guarantee is inexcusable. People sign up based on the idea of zero risk.

aphasiac Wrote:Mail rebates are based around making it difficult to claim a refund; this is not even remotely similar.

Well, it remains to be seen how difficult Khatz will make it to get the refund. But if too many people request refunds and Khatz is unable or unwilling to refund, then all I can say is good luck getting the money back.

aphasiac Wrote:So basically khatz can't win. If he doesn't issue a refund due to someone breaking the agreement, he'll be accused of theivery and fraud. If he does issue one, it's conclusive proof the SS isn't worth it..

He could bring back instant refunds. That would make it a lot more "win".
You might want to brush up on reading comprehension as nowhere did I say that the existence of a refund is proof that it's worthless. I said that he added the 18 month delay so he could hold onto people's money for longer because significant numbers of people WERE quitting and getting instant refunds after seeing the product.

If he believed in his product he'd offer it. His excuse that he doesn't want to get bogged down by refund processing proves that he has no confidence in SS' value (if it was worth it, there would be few claims right?). His other excuse that he only wants the dedicated in the program, thus the financial commitment also doesn't hold water as SS is advertised as a program for the unmotivated (aka non-dedicated).

..and no, mail in rebates mostly rely on people forgetting to mail them in before the deadline. The existence of a deadline could be considered "making it difficult" I suppose.. You can bet there will be similar restrictions on SS. Can you request a refund two years after you finished the 18 months? You also failed to actually think about what I was saying. Let's say I start SS and quit after four months, I'll have to remember about the refund 14 months later. That is a very likely scenario and many will forget.

In any case's he's already violating Japanese business law with his service (no cooling off period, no business license, etc), and it's almost certainly all going under the table so there is tax evasion there too. If he wasn't evading, then 18 months is longer than a tax year so he will have to pay tax on the SS fees before any possible refunds, leaving him out of pocket. There is a reason to be concerned beyond just the question of ridiculous pricing or worthless content.

I am bewildered by the fact there are still some who believe students are going to go from zero to high school level fluency in 18 months. He may very well refund all those who ask for one(I am skeptical), but he only needs to have two people not ask for one to continue this scam. $2,000 per month is plenty to live a comfortable life in Japan. In 18 months, two paying customers could become incarcerated, die, be too ashamed to ask, too ashamed to admit failure, or will blame themselves for not trying hard enough.

If you paid for this service, I am sorry, but you have been taken for a sucker.
That is just the way it is. You will not be the first, nor the last, in this world to have been seduced and ripped off by a charismatic salesman.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am bewildered by the fact there are still some who believe students are going to go from zero to high school level fluency in 18 months.

Every language school in Japan offers this. Why does it bewilder you?

-Every language school isn't an email list of youtube links and quotas.
-Most language schools also fail to advance students that quickly, even if they are intensive programs with good teachers. Two years to JLPT2, an extra 1-2 for JLPT1 is pretty much standard for serious students unless they are Chinese and can mostly skip the kanji+kango learning. Note that ability required to pass JLPT1 is far below the level advertised by SS and it has no production element. I will be floored if ANY SS subscribers can pass 1 after the 18 months. JLPT2 isn't impossible but will require a lot of effort beyond what SS provides.
-If a school guaranteed high level fluency in 18 months without all-day every-day intensiveness and extremely small class sizes, they should be called out on it too.
-Most of the forum (not me though) is strongly anti-classroom already anyways. (largely due to ajatt/khatz influence I think)

That's not my point.

My point is it is possible to reach that kind of fluency in 18 months. There is a pace of learning that leads to passing JLPT1 after that kind of studying. So it's dumb to argue that it isn't possible.

SilverSpoon might not produce that result, but there are other programs and methods that have already proven it. (Highly motivated self-study being among those methods.)

tokyostyle Wrote:My point is it is possible to reach that kind of fluency in 18 months. There is a pace of learning that leads to passing JLPT1 after that kind of studying. So it's dumb to argue that it isn't possible.

[Citation needed]

I've never heard of someone getting JLPT1 from scratch in 18 months and I wouldn't believe it without reliable witnesses and a copy of the certificate.
Someone claiming on the internet "yup I'm fluent" means nothing. I've known people that say they are fluent because they can say "wataSHEE waaa, America jeen desss" (and ONLY that).

tokyostyle Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:I am bewildered by the fact there are still some who believe students are going to go from zero to high school level fluency in 18 months.

Every language school in Japan offers this. Why does it bewilder you?

Can you demonstrate a single example of someone who has ever achieved this? The idea that somebody who spends most of their time watching TV and using Anki could bridge the recognition-production gap to the extent of a 17-18-year-old native is indeed bewildering. ta12121 has probably spent more time than anyone ever has studying a language over an 18-month period and his production still falls way short, even though his progress has been very good.

I don't know if people think Japanese 高校生 are idiots, but I can assure you they're just as good, if not better, at speaking their native tongue than many Westerners. If someone's paying extortionate amounts in the belief they're going to achieve something Khatz himself fell short of, then I feel sorry for them and their non-existent refund.

aphasiac Wrote:the bullying of SS sign-ups (implying that they are stupid / being conned / shouldn't study a language if they aren't able to work it out for themselves)

JimmySeal Wrote:Could you point out some examples of this bullying? I can't recall seeing any.

Khatzu describes SS learners as:
Erratic
Disorganized
Inconsistent
Undisciplined
Get overwhelmed easily

Khatzu is a bully. ;p

The idea that SS users are being bullied strikes me as kind of silly.

The bullies are being bullied because they are bullying the bulls buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo

Thora I think you need to stop reading that website...

怪物と戦う者は、みずからも怪物とならぬように心せよ。汝が久しく深淵を見入るとき、深淵もまた汝を見入るのである. ;D

tokyostyle Wrote:My point is it is possible to reach that kind of fluency in 18 months. There is a pace of learning that leads to passing JLPT1 after that kind of studying. So it's dumb to argue that it isn't possible.

I've never actually said it on this forum before, but to be honest I've never met any native speaker of English who passed JLPT 1 in less than four years of study. I've only met two people who did it in under five years. I don't deny that it's possible to do in less than two years, but I'm certainly a bit skeptical since I've never actually seen anything near it in person.

I've also lived in Japan for 3 years, so I've met a LOT of people who are studying Japanese.

(I have met Korean and Chinese people who did it faster)

Why is AJTT blogged entirely in All English All The Time? Shouldn't there be a link so users can put the advice to use reading his own website?

Why doesn't he have a Youtube channel so that he can give those inspirational talks in Japanese using himself as an example to what you can one day be?

Why hasn't he come on here and defended his system (assuming he hasn't already been doing so under an alias)? We know he reads this thread.

bodhisamaya Wrote:Why is AJTT blogged entirely in All English All The Time? Shouldn't there be a link so users can put the advice to use reading his own website?

Why doesn't he have a Youtube channel so that he can give those inspirational talks in Japanese using himself as an example to what you can one day be?

Why hasn't he come on here and defended his system (assuming he hasn't already been doing so under an alias)? We know he reads this thread.

As much as I oppose Khatz' latest egotrip, I don't think he would accomplish anything coming to a webforum to argue and defend his There-Is-No-Spoon method.
Not only it's a huge waste of time, but it would also make him look insecure and much less guru-like.

Just look at this thread. The people who were pro-Spoon are STILL pro-Spoon, and the people who were anti-Spoon are STILL anti-Spoon, even with 19 pages worth of discussion.

People rarely ever change their minds on the internet.

loser Wrote:People rarely ever change their minds on the internet.

Yes they do.