bodhisamaya Wrote:When are his first set of students expected to graduate?

The first group is on day 122 give or take. (I estimated it from when the first comments were posted on various days.) Thus 595 days will be around December 13, 2012.

I think it's very unlikely that any of the graduates will have been at zero Japanese when they started. On the other hand none of them should have finished RTK1 before.

..and likely most of them will not be fluent/have finished the program.
Some will have attained a high level, but will it be statistically higher than a hypothetical control group?

Jarvik7 Wrote:Some will have attained a high level, but will it be statistically higher than a hypothetical control group?

What would your hypothetical control group consist of exactly?

Genuine question. You're obviously fixated on the fact that SS is a waste of time and money, but what method(s) are you comparing it against?

It is not a waste of time, but an obscene waste of money. I think $20 for being on the mailing list for 18 months would be a fair rate.

bodhisamaya Wrote:It is not a waste of time, but an obscene waste of money. I think $20 for being on the mailing list for 18 months would be a fair rate.

What you consider fair might be very different from what other people think. I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it. You might question his business sense (cheaper=more customers) but we also don't know if its at all sustainable for him to handle more clients.

Even if it means people are getting scammed I believe its their right to do so, if they're stupid enough to fall for SS, it's better for them to learn from this cheap mistake rather than giving 100k$ to a Nigerian prince...

Send me $1000 dollars and I'll tell you about the methods used by a fluent control group. Act now, I only have limited copies and they're going fast. No refunds. I mean, until Silverspoon is over. Just kidding! Not really.

Here's what people are saying about nest0r's control group:

“nest0r's control group hates the free market.”

“nest0r's control group are pompous bullies.”

“nest0r is worse than Hitler.”

thurd Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:It is not a waste of time, but an obscene waste of money. I think $20 for being on the mailing list for 18 months would be a fair rate.

What you consider fair might be very different from what other people think. I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it. You might question his business sense (cheaper=more customers) but we also don't know if its at all sustainable for him to handle more clients.

Even if it means people are getting scammed I believe its their right to do so, if they're stupid enough to fall for SS, it's better for them to learn from this cheap mistake rather than giving 100k$ to a Nigerian prince...

People will pay for a product or service at the value they believe it deserves. Yes, paying for an excessive amount for an actual product or service, is better than being scammed out of your money.

There's a difference between declaring yourself for a free market and suggesting that the market is already free and free in such a way that freedom means free from criticism or influence or products being related to other products and found lacking in quality, price, and integrity.

This: “you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it” is simply not true. People say it all the time, and it's very often true when they say it, and sometimes, it even affects the exorbitant price and reduces it.

thurd Wrote:I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it.

Lol. Are you sure you know what a free market is?

The free market at its best!

JimmySeal Wrote:

thurd Wrote:I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it.

Lol. Are you sure you know what a free market is?

Free markets rely on rational agents acting on perfect information.

Just because you can find someone willing to buy something, that doesn't mean it is priced fairly. Ordinary people aren't rational agents acting on perfect information. That's why we have laws against fraud.

the fraud arguments are absurd. so far everyone on record that ever asked for a refund has received one immediately. just because you don't like him is no reason for libel.

i think it's much more likely that he just overestimated his abilities as a mentor/PD coach/RSS feed author etc. to convey nihongo midichlorians to his followers through his self-perceived amazingly strong chakra... or whatever.

i'm sure by this point of what, 5/6 years of running that site and having his ass kissed and money thrown at him with the whole cult of personality thing... he think's he has magic language powers. some people actually do and can learn languages at an amazing pace, and perhaps that's true for khatz... but it's a much different thing from conveying that ability to others, and maybe all the ego-feeding has clouded this reality.

zigmonty Wrote:

JimmySeal Wrote:

thurd Wrote:I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it.

Lol. Are you sure you know what a free market is?

Free markets rely on rational agents acting on perfect information.

Just because you can find someone willing to buy something, that doesn't mean it is priced fairly. Ordinary people aren't rational agents acting on perfect information. That's why we have laws against fraud.

In a free market a person can charge what ever they like for a product or service. Also, the customers pay what they believe it is worth. This is whether or not it is a discount or a premium. That is what the free market is all about.

Rational agents? ... That reminds me of all the people who say "I want an iPad" just because Apple makes it. They are not acting on "perfect information." So, are you now going to accuse Apple of fraud? Or, what about paying 1 million dollars for an old car. Is that fraud?

thurd Wrote:I believe in a free market, you cannot say his service is overpriced if there are customers willing to pay that money for it.

This is all wrong because criticizing the price of something is part of the free market. When a product is released people discuss whether or not the product is appropriate to the price, and this is sometimes done publically. It used to be discussed publically only through reviews and consumer reports, but these days thanks to the internet almost anyone can declare whether or not the price of a product is too high to be worth it.

So, by discussing the appropriateness of the price of SilverSpoon, we're actually actively partcipating in the free market. We're influencing the market, since the more criticism there is the less likely people will be to buy the product. If Khatz wants to avoid criticism he will have to change his product or its price, and that's all part of the game of the free market.

You CAN say his service is overpriced, even if customers are willing to pay money for it. That's how the free market has always worked.

aphasiac Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Some will have attained a high level, but will it be statistically higher than a hypothetical control group?

What would your hypothetical control group consist of exactly?

Genuine question. You're obviously fixated on the fact that SS is a waste of time and money, but what method(s) are you comparing it against?

I'm not really fixated since I'm pretty much beyond studying Japanese at this point (though I intend to get kanken1 and master classical sometime). It's just that the debate in these threads is interesting (more than a thread on JLPT study or sentence mining something) and I have time to kill at work.

My hypothetical control group would consist of people on this forum I suppose - people who are using modern study techniques and studying somewhat regularly, but don't have a pricy automated email with a few random youtube vids in it.

Would SS users of RevTK be fluent faster than non-SS users? I'm guessing they would be fluent slower, as the person who would be drawn to SS isn't cutting it solo and is grasping at straws to maintain momentum (like having a baby to save a relationship). People starting from scratch are different, but their decision would be based in naivety instead of desperation. The fluency rates for that group would be at best the same as non-SS users I'd hypothesize, with some dropping out and some keeping on. In other words, I feel that SS provides absolutely nothing (of value) that isn't already on RevTK or AJATT. Of course, conducting this kind of study is impossible

nest0r Wrote:Send me $1000 dollars and I'll tell you about the methods used by a fluent control group. Act now, I only have limited copies and they're going fast. No refunds. I mean, until Silverspoon is over. Just kidding! Not really.

Good way of avoiding the question . Still waiting for Jarvik to answer.

Tzadeck Wrote:You CAN say his service is overpriced, even if customers are willing to pay money for it. That's how the free market has always worked.

I agree with this. But this thread has gone waaay beyond that now, into personal attacks, insults, accusations of fraud etc etc. Also now people are asking for scientific proof that his method works?! I wonder why does khatz get singled out for this treatment, and not similarly priced products like Rosetta Stone or Japanesepod101?

I remember the thread when Khatz started up AJATTPlus - it sparked a similar debate, but was a lot more rational and sensible.

aphasiac Wrote:I remember http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5357&page=1the thread when Khatz started up AJATTPlus - it sparked a similar debate, but was a lot more rational and sensible.

AJATTPlus didn't cost a mind-baffling obscene amount of money and arguably provides more than SS (private forum).

Jarvik7 Wrote:My hypothetical control group would consist of people on this forum I suppose - people who are using modern study techniques and studying somewhat regularly, but don't have a pricy automated email with a few random youtube vids in it.

That's not fair though, as people on this forum tend to be well motivated, well organised etc.

Isn't the point in SS that the sign-ups are people unable to finish RtK and unable or unwilling to formulate their own study plan? Comparing them to someone who can isn't a correct control - is it?

Jarvik7 Wrote:AJATTPlus didn't cost a mind-baffling obscene amount of money and arguably provides more than SS (private forum).

As mentioned above, Rosetta Stone and Japanesepop101 are similarly priced to SS. Where are the 18 page threads debating those products?

the comparison with rosetta stone is really relevant. that IS a scam... using all the tricks of marketing to get people to buy it for huge amounts of money. talking about CIA and NASA ppl using it to get to "fluency"... they actually use the word "fluency" in relation with that program, which is kind of insane.

there are rosetta stone booths in almost every mall in this country, doing huge business and the whole program will only approximate 1 or 2 college level classes. fluency is absolutely irrelevant to what will have taken place.

if we're getting this worked up about ajatt, people need to be getting pitchforks and torches to hunt down those hucksters. if it were'nt so hard to legally define fluency they would have been strung up for grossly misleading advertising a long time ago.

If people started threads about rosetta stone then people would offer their opinion on it. This thread is about SS though.
A lot of people regard SS as a waste of money/time for various reasons and the fact that rosetta stone, japanesepod or whatever else is more of a ripoff is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
Khatz is free to sell his product (presuming he's not breaking any Japanese business laws), suckers are free to pay for it, and everyone else is free to comment on the value of the his product as they see fit.

nadiatims Wrote:If people started threads about rosetta stone then people would offer their opinion on it. This thread is about SS though.
A lot of people regard SS as a waste of money/time for various reasons and the fact that rosetta stone, japanesepod or whatever else is more of a ripoff is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

It is relevant. There are several threads on this site about Rosetta Stone, but none of them attracted such hatred and venom. This is despite the fact that as dtcamero points out, they are literally committing fraud, and their "refund policy" is proven to be a scam.

It just shows that this thread has now gone beyond rational debate, and turned into of some sort of personal attack or grudge against khatz.

nadiatims Wrote:Khatz is free to sell his product (presuming he's not breaking any Japanese business laws), suckers are free to pay for it, and everyone else is free to comment on the value of the his product as they see fit.

There we go again; a personal insult. We all know that several SS members post here, and in a previous thread at least one of them said they felt personally attacked and wouldn't be posting here again. Not only does this type of bullying behaviour break the forum rules, it goes completely against the spirit of this site.

nadiatims Wrote:If people started threads about rosetta stone then people would offer their opinion on it. This thread is about SS though.
A lot of people regard SS as a waste of money/time for various reasons and the fact that rosetta stone, japanesepod or whatever else is more of a ripoff is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

that's reasonable... but the scale difference of hucksterism (if SS is, while RS definitely is) is enormous. therefore an appropriate thread following every rosetta stone foible would be expected... but doesn't exist. there probably was some much cooler language that discussed its irrelevance a long time ago and never even got in to criminality.

it's an issue of disproportionate reaction that leads one to think there is another reason for the rapturous delight in accusing this guy of all sorts of slander.

personally i think you guys are super hot for khatz but i've said it so much i think i need an acronym from this point on... HfK? anyone?

I think most people are fully aware that Rosetta is crap, and I don't think anyone in the history of this forum has bought it (just got it from a library or downloaded it illegally).

Jpop101 doesn't come up very often, but they do actually offer a lot of content of concrete value for less than SS.. I'd still never have paid for it when I was still studying and I want Peter to die though.

In any case, I am not in charge of creating threads. Despite my post count I think I've only started one thread ever (to sell some stuff). I do tend to slam other pay services/products that aren't worthwhile if I come across a thread for them.

@aphasiac

I don't recall anyone quitting the forum, but if they quit over something like being called a sucker, isn't that being just a tad over sensitive?

The amount of time devoted to the worship of Katz and AJATT over the years on this forum has been obscene. When he does something as insane as charging $1,000 for being on a email list, users cry that he is being picked on when those not drinking the Kool-aid cry B.S.. It has nothing to do with him personally. If some other overpriced system gathered as passionate of defenders, it would be equally passionately rebutted.