bodhisamaya Wrote:She claimed she wanted every student finishing the year at the same level.

Lol, it's one thing to believe we are all equal. It's another to actively ensure that's the outcome.

Jarvik7 Wrote:It's not personalized so some people will be bored by slowness as others fall behind.

zigmonty Wrote:... which pretty much is the reason behind "classes suck" right? Kinda funny in a way.

J7 Wrote:[reasons]...so actually it's worse than classes.

Yet another example of the disconnect J7 mentioned b/w the whole idea of AJATT and its products/services. I think this one is worth emphasizing:

J7 Wrote:AJATT has always seemed to me to be for people with a ton of free time. I don't see how that's compatible with the target market of "people with no time to even use google".

Some folks were surprised by SS and other products b/c they are the antithesis of what AJATT is meant to be. Sentences were intended to be the byproduct of immersion, then Khatz starts selling prepared sentence packs and a frequency based vocab list. Khatz repeatedly trumpets the merits of self-directed learning and experimentation, then starts selling Silverspoon.

I doubt Khatz planned the guru/follower thing. In fact, it appears he was genuinely caught off guard and initially repeatedly implored followers to be less dependent on him and on detailed instructions. He wanted them to stop bugging him with inane requests for clarification. When that didn't work, he opted for the old maxim "If you can't help 'em, exploit 'em." :p tokyostyle observed that it's scary how literally some of the Silverspoon users take his instructions. Do you think Silverspoon was created with learners' best interests in mind?

Khatz tries to explain away the many obvious contradictions with weasel words. I don't have time to search for the biggest doozies, but I did notice a multi-page article explaining his crazy, brilliant concept: "Doing something is better than nothing." *pause* Keep Silverspoon in mind as you read this:

Khatz Wrote:We act as if the environment were full of certainty, as if we were cogs in a giant machine in which everything has already been decided. And that’s stifling. [...]

Those lists of things to do (or, more accurately, the way we use them), rob us of the freedom to exercise our creativity. There’s too much certainty. Certainty of having to be stuck doing a specific thing in a specific place in a specific (read: boring) way. There’s this idea that there’s this One True Best Optimal Correct Method of Doing X, and our only job is to find it and then execute. If we find it, we succeed, if not, we just kind of suck. [...]

So the first thing to do is free yourself of the notion that you know how, where or when anything should or will happen. Because you don’t.

lol. Khatz markets his method as being the "one that works", unlike other methods (even intensive programs.) He is absolutely certain that his method will result in 'fluency" if you follow his instructions on "what to do, when to do it, how to do it, what to buy, when to buy it", etc.

Khatz likes to promote the image of himself as a language learning rebel, the guy with the "crazy method" that actually "works". Yet another marketing slogan. But we know that some other methods work just as well. While some folks might need the "just show up"/"just make contact" pep talks, I'll echo Tzadeck's comment that most folks are actually interested in what works better (for them), not just what works. Also, AJATT techniques are not the revolutionary change some seem to think.

So, yeah, as AJATT evolves, it resembles more and more what it opposes. [edit: And Khatz is very critical of "bait and switch" tactics...]

nest0r Wrote:other methodologies that are supported by current scientific understanding and behavioural studies, et cetera.

Can you elaborate on this? I wasn't aware of any formal ideas other than Krashen's input hypothesis.

vgambit Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:other methodologies that are supported by current scientific understanding and behavioural studies, et cetera.

Can you elaborate on this? I wasn't aware of any formal ideas other than Krashen's input hypothesis.

Here's a couple good starting points.

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf
http://www2.fiu.edu/%7Eschwartb/Schwartz_21-2_.pdf

Jarvik7 Wrote:Breaking it up like that also makes the assumption that everyone learns at the same rate. It's not personalized so some people will be bored by slowness as others fall behind.

This entire comment is wrong in the context of SilverSpoon. There are optional activities everyday and of course these can be extended to fill up as much time as you have available.

If you are going slower than the pace he has set out then he has suggestions for dealing with that as well. He does spend a ton of time discussing ways that each of us can tailor the content to our needs.

Thora Wrote:tokyostyle observed that it's scary how literally some of the Silverspoon users take his instructions. Do you think Silverspoon was created with learners' best interests in mind?

The answer to your question is obviously yes, because the idea came from the learners themselves. What you should be questioning here is if the learners should be given what they ask for.

I think the people who try to follow the advice too literally are stuck in the teacher/student or employee/boss sort of mentality. They want to absolve themselves of the responsibility of learning completely which ironically misses the main message of the original blog. Obviously this is the SilverSpoon target market and I'm guessing it is a much larger market than those who keep themselves on the self-study path.

nest0r Wrote:

Thora Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:...

...

yeah, this is irritation (unlike the OP...)

Well, yes and no. See Thora, sometimes life is like a box of chocolates, but at the end of the day it can be other things. What you misunderstand is the keyword "of" in that and other contexts, which can be read many ways when you have an open mind. The path is sometimes the goal to be seen with one eye closed more slowly than the bending spoon moves. This is the most important thing. ;p

Funniest post in the whole thread :lol:

tokyostyle Wrote:The answer to your question is obviously yes, because the idea came from the learners themselves. What you should be questioning here is if the learners should be given what they ask for.

Well, people don't necessary want what's best for themselves. (I know I don't always.) :-) So, that is essentially what I asked. (Not really "should" - b/c people can buy/sell what they want. More just an observation that it's not his priority to get people doing what he believes is best for learning. Kind of a rhetorical Q, I suppose.)

Quote:Obviously this is the SilverSpoon target market and I'm guessing it is a much larger market than those who keep themselves on the self-study path.

It'd be interesting to have some stats on self-studiers. I've wondered about that when looking at those #/country figures (based on class enrolment, I assume).

In the time I've been here, I've loved following people's progress from zero to JLPTx, first visit to Japan, etc. I wish I could know also what % of learners are also taking classes, give up after RTK, continue beyond 2 yrs, achieve their goals, etc. SS could be an opportunity to collect some interesting info. Unfortunately, I suspect many SS users are not total beginners. (3 of the 4 bloggers linked to aren't.)

Thora Wrote:I wish I could know also what % of learners are also taking classes, give up after RTK, continue beyond 2 yrs, achieve their goals, etc.

I would bet we can get an accurate percentage just from look at psychology studies. There are lots of human endeavors that have high failure or drop-out rates not because the material is hard, but because people find something newer and more interesting to them. One statistic I know is that only 30% of people who start private pilot training go on to finish and get their license. I would imagine that a high percentage of people who begin studying Japanese don't even make it to jr. high level fluency. I don't really know how to guess what that number might be but if you told me that 90% of people completely give up then I would believe you.

Also, I've seen a lot of exchange students, some who have taken 8 full semesters of college Japanese, who can't speak effectively or read native materials. The point here is that even those who are fairly motivated to learn might be on a path so slow that achieving a basic level of fluent reading and speaking seems impossible.

The real problem with trying to gather this kind of information is the people who have it don't want it published.

Thora Wrote:Unfortunately, I suspect many SS users are not total beginners. (3 of the 4 bloggers linked to aren't.)

As much as some people in this thread want to paint Khatzu is some sort of revolutionary language guru-god I don't think SS appeals to beginners at all. Rather it appeals to those of us who tried out AJATT by ourselves, found some success in it, but for various reasons couldn't sustain the momentum.

We know that the first 18 months is actually only the beginning of a path to Japanese fluency, but I think goals like passing JLPT1 will be trivial for those who manage to finish the entire course successfully. Of course not everyone who pays for the whole thing will actually be diligent students so we can expect to see a lot more failures and drop-outs than successes. That's just human nature at work.

I'm Pro-Khatz but even I didn't join Sliverspoon, although I did buy his guide last year and asked for a refund because this was all info I already knew and sentences I knew. He even says you don't need any of the items he's selling and I'm inclined to agree. Most of the stuff you can find on his site, then you have the srs shared decks,forums,mulit-media,etc. I used to take his advice seriously and still do at times but I've learned what works for me and at my pace. Sometimes I like to be extreme, sometimes I love to be slow but that's just me. So basically, it really comes down to taking the best of AJATT and applying it to your own studies. But there is also the fact that some people will fail, not because of the method but because they didn't put enough time+long-term as well.

tokyostyle Wrote:Unfortunately, I suspect many SS users are not total beginners.

Acutally, it seems the S.S. is primarily recruiting Aryan youth as they are the easiest manipulated by the emotional rhetoric from its charismatic leader.

ta12121 Wrote:I'm Pro-Khatz

What.

Quote:One statistic I know is that only 30% of people who start private pilot training go on to finish and get their license.

Ah, that's the beauty of 'statistics', just like 'standards'. Everyone can make up their own.

For a long time I was associated with a flying school. Every single person who started training for a private licence, finished with a private licence. Every one.

That statistic sounds about right. I have a pilot's license, but saw many others start, yet not finish, the process in the years I was active at flying schools around the American SW.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

tokyostyle Wrote:Unfortunately, I suspect many SS users are not total beginners.

Acutally, it seems the S.S. is primarily recruiting Aryan youth as they are the easiest manipulated by the emotional rhetoric from its charismatic leader.

Did you get your money back?

I have mixed feeling about SS but I want to give it as a gift for someone who like AJATT. When I try to apply it seems the courses are always full. Have not really seen a proper contract. As I understand it, you don't pay the money up front but as you go along? So if you don't like the course you just stop making the payments. I think most people will know quite quickly. If one gets throught 18 months the definition of fluent is vague but certainly one should be on the way.

I am more interested in the Khatz's integrity. Hence, did you get your refund?

@midnightsun,
I did not buy the system, but I would advise against it.

However much you make per hour working, divide that into US$1,200 to calculate much time would be required at work to buy this time saving system.

Sorry the question was meant for ta12121. Don't what I did wrong. Was a clot.

for ta12121
Did you get your money back?

I have mixed feeling about SS but I want to give it as a gift for someone who like AJATT. When I try to apply it seems the courses are always full. Have not really seen a proper contract. As I understand it, you don't pay the money up front but as you go along? So if you don't like the course you just stop making the payments. I think most people will know quite quickly. If one gets throught 18 months the definition of fluent is vague but certainly one should be on the way.

I am more interested in the Khatz's integrity. Hence, did you get your refund?

onafarm Wrote:

Quote:One statistic I know is that only 30% of people who start private pilot training go on to finish and get their license.

Ah, that's the beauty of 'statistics', just like 'standards'. Everyone can make up their own.

The most recent figures published in AOPA put it at less than 25%. I was being generous.

TheVinster Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:I'm Pro-Khatz

What.

Guess I should have not said pro, but I do like the ideas he posts and the writing style.

midnightsun Wrote:for ta12121
Did you get your money back?

I have mixed feeling about SS but I want to give it as a gift for someone who like AJATT. When I try to apply it seems the courses are always full. Have not really seen a proper contract. As I understand it, you don't pay the money up front but as you go along? So if you don't like the course you just stop making the payments. I think most people will know quite quickly. If one gets throught 18 months the definition of fluent is vague but certainly one should be on the way.

I am more interested in the Khatz's integrity. Hence, did you get your refund?

Well I haven't joined Silverspoon but on other products I have bought in then the past from him I did get a refund for it. I just stated that I already knew those sentences in the sentence pack+already knew everything in his site due to reading it and learning Jp for sometime now

midnightsun Wrote:Have not really seen a proper contract. As I understand it, you don't pay the money up front but as you go along? So if you don't like the course you just stop making the payments.

Paying as you go would be twice as expensive. From my reply #236:

Daily: $5/d = $3000
Monthly: $4/d = $2400
Full in advance: $2/d = $1200

Plus: $150-250/m for equipment, programs, etc. (not media) (per Khatz and a blogger.)

Perhaps you could try it for $120/month, then switch. Basically, a $120 trial period. This is a ludicrous price for mailing list motivational emails which are probably already available on his list of twitters...imho. ;-)

I'm not aware of any contract or whether you'd be contracting with Khatz individually (under his real name) or a company. (Perhaps a SS user could let potential buyers know?) Again, sending $1200 to an internet persona isn't a smart move (even if you're rich.) ;-) Perhaps you could suggest that he instead use a cancellation fee or not offer full refund if he wants to deter tourists and encourage commitment.

Incidentally, to me the question is less "Is the real individual called Khatz trustworthy?" and more "Should Khatz be demanding that buyers agree to bear all the risk (various) of an unusual online transaction on the basis of some trust in his online persona?" It's not a personal insult, but a suggestion he improve his way of doing business. (Perhaps aphasia also would get less upset if he were to look at it this way?)

We should see a flurry of new activity on this thread soon. The post RTK version of has been announced.

Does he guarantee fluency in 14 months if you finished RTK already?

Oh, yikes! I just read the post-RTK sales pitch. I haven't been to his site in a while, but this doesn't sound like him at all. I used to use his posts for motivation, and I'm pretty sure he was never adamant about his method being the "One True Way."

What happened? :/

I thnk that's part of his viral marketing, where he says the opposite of what he means but not really, wink wink nudge nudge, to get past the immune systems of otherwise cynical marketing targets because he's so clever and funny.

There's no such thing as monolinguality for second language learners and using the second language to learn the second language is not important and not more effective than using your first, so it's too bad forcing monolinguality's a focus of this new batch of pricey snake oil. ;p