Omoishinji Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:... If you add money to the equation it becomes important to offer some sort of professional guarantee that you're offering sound advice, a guarantee that it's hard for beginners to check on...

I agree and disagree. Let me explain. Qualifications is important to assure students of any level that the person has the appropriate knowledge. With any service it is also important to have a clear and easy to understand description of the service. Something that explain the methodology used, or the philosophy behind the instruction model. This is part of the professional guarantee.

However, Qualifications isn't the most important factor, professionalism and quality are. That is someone that is willing to work hard to improve on their deficiencies. One method of determining this is through user statements of praise. Everyone has to start from some where. Also, it is the monetary amount (but that is what I thing you meant).

Finally, people like me want at least a native speaker with good language skills.

I didn't say qualifications, though that's one route of getting an upfront idea of quality, and you could argue that establishing a reputation is a form of qualification. I meant a professional system in place that ensures you don't get ripped off/scammed after paying someone, especially if they're making claims of service and asking for prices that are hard for a beginning self-student to verify the merits of without consulting other perspectives (such as multiple people who themselves have skills and experience and aren't asking for your money).

nest0r Wrote:You should follow learning recommendations, advice from multiple perspectives that is flexible and open, and is based on logical ideas grounded in proven principles for learning, not closed, rigid proclamations from a single blogger that is based on a lot of fluff and the few ideas that aren't decades out of date or simply wrong are easily had for free elsewhere. The kind of effort and skills you need and develop in doing so are essential parts of the self-study process.

I feel like a lot of rigid proclamations are done because of a tendency of self-learners to lack discipline and immediately discard useful advice because they haven't stuck to it long enough.

Of course, a lot of rigidity is based on concrete evidence, and I would discard rigidity when it isn't.

I'm basing this on weight training, in which a lot of people tend to modify programs without really knowing what they're doing. Most famous is Starting Strength, in which many people add exercises when they shouldn't.

Heck, some people modify it and sell it as their own and make lots of money off of it.

[I think it's also ironic that it could be considered decades old compared to all the new stuff out there, but it's still good. =)]

Quote:And it's natural for this thread to have developed to incorporate a focus on the basis/content of what you're paying thousands of dollars for with little hope for refund, the OP and its follow-up both describe the point as being the result of Khatzumoto crossing the line into unethical business territory, but we've been having to talk down ludicrous extremist takes on Khatzumoto's advice for ages, e.g. no English, no grammar, incomprehensible input; treating Khatzumoto as a guru was an issue even when it was free, it's the root of the problem.

Even though it's extremist, maintaining a flexible mind helped me learned a lot.

One of the problems with having a flexible mind is how much credit you want to give to others. I found this board, Anki, various books, and a couple motivational quotes from AJATT. I also experimented with the more extreme advice.

"No English" - Found myself chasing an endless loop in the dictionary. Found that some ideas were so much easier to grasp in English than in Japanese, which was then reinforced by Japanese sentences using that word, and then the English meaning drops out eventually. Found out that immersion works when input IS comprehensible.

"No Grammar" - Without knowing the meaning of sentences, it really didn't help. Even if I could vaguely grasp the meaning, I couldn't understand the nuances. Textbook grammar study, while making sense in the textbook, was often seen in natural sentences with all sorts of different grammar. A combination of natural sentences with textbook sentences made it easier to grasp grammatical points and understand what people were saying.

"Incomprehensible input" - Very good as a sleeping aid.

@kainzero

I think giving credit becomes less important the more flexible you are, even if it's harder, due to the number of sources you use and the sources they use, et cetera, as you realize it's all connected. Then you stop seeing places like particular language blogs as isolated, unitary, unique elements that are taken wholesale as they're constructed. Individuals with the open, flexible perspective would love to stop there and pretend everyone else does too, but unfortunately not everyone thinks this way so some discourse/dissent is necessary to counterbalance it. ;p

And I said decades out of date, not decades old. ;p I was referring to the basis of Krashen's ideas on input-only that are spread by bloggers, specifically linguistic and neuroscientific ideas from decades past that are no longer held or are reversed, or have been updated and changed greatly and are reflected in open, flexible views on language learning that accept the importance of enjoyable input (thanks in part to Krashen) but without the extreme, unscientific all-or-nothing attitude, and instead combine it with other methodologies that are supported by current scientific understanding and behavioural studies, et cetera.

sometimes i think i quote a nest0r paragraph

but it turns out that it's just one sentence.

Khatz,since you take time out of your useless life to read these threads,can you use this quote like the many others you've taken and add it to the ajatt ss banner?

"Silverspoon is really my Japanese language school diary notes"
and
"Khatz is baka"

kainzero Wrote:sometimes i think i quote a nest0r paragraph

but it turns out that it's just one sentence.

haha. (I read that in a SNL Deep Thoughts way.)

nest0r Wrote:I didn't say qualifications, though that's one route of getting an upfront idea of quality, and you could argue that establishing a reputation is a form of qualification. I meant a professional system in place that ensures you don't get ripped off/scammed after paying someone, especially if they're making claims of service and asking for prices that are hard for a beginning self-student to verify the merits of without consulting other perspectives (such as multiple people who themselves have skills and experience and aren't asking for your money).

That was a misinterpretation on my behave. Let me take another "stab at it." The problem is in the business model. The idea that I see is something to give prospective customers some piece of mind with the service, and a realistic reimbursement system. Also, a clear contract on how the reimbursement system works. The length of the contract for me seems unrealistic, and more out to protect the proprietor. Thus, the contract should also try to balance the rights of the customer and proprietor. A short introduction or the like would be beneficial. In my view "Or your money back" is third to "this is how we will help you."

kainzero Wrote:sometimes i think i quote a nest0r paragraph

but it turns out that it's just one sentence.

One sentence is a nest0r paragraph, also known as a nest0r's dozen.

@ omoishinji - please don't take this the wrong way, but I'd prefer not to continue this particular exchange. I feel we're not completely understanding each other and we're repeating some stuff that's already been discussed. (language issue?) I'm still (!) hoping to respond to a few earlier posts... [removed extraneous stuff]

Omoishinji Wrote:Reading your original post it seem as though you had some form of inside information. It is might have been better to directly express the concerns of the service, then seemly mocking it. Why wasn't it clearly written about the service contract? You seem to want to suggest that he would run off with "suckers money." That doesn't sound at the least bit objective.

Inside information? More like reading critically. Objective? I already explained my reasons for using satire initially and not including a description. Here is one reason Khatzu gave for the new 18-month refund:

Khatz Wrote:To give me time to skip the country with your money and head to my secret villa in Panama with my concubine 1, Esmeralda

I was imitating him. Perhaps take a look at my take on that and the various risks here.

omoishinji Wrote:I didn't say contradict. I said "drifted from the original post," as stated about your core concern.

By using my exact words which were about contradiction, I understood you were implying that I had also contradicted myself.

Quote:These people might what one place to go to get all their material for their learning. So, if Silver Spoon offers this service, then the service is valuable to them.

The information is already available in one place at the AJATT site (according to Khatzu). Neoglitch agrees that SS isn't necessary to get the information in one place. SS service seems more about daily emails to "keep people on the wagon" (to borrow tokyostyle's phrase). If people want to pay $1200 for a motivation service, that's their choice. But let's be clear that the service is not necessary for the information.

Quote:AJATT offer as service called Silver Spoon, not a "source of authority" called Silver Spoon

huh? You asked me why you should take my advice over Khatz's. In other words, what makes me an authority. (What is the "source of my authority".) People are willing to buy SS because "Khatz became fluent in 18 months". That's the source of his authority. I'm suggesting people not rely exclusively on that. Better to evaluate the product objectively by considering other opinions and information.

I view Khatz telling his followers to ignore naysayers and academics as irresponsible and cult-ish. If he can't offer any support for his advice, fine, but he needn't discourage his followers from looking elsewhere for info. What Khatz says is: (paraphrasing) "Don't ask questions. Don't ask why. Don't listen to forum debates. Don't care what academics say. Just trust me b/c I became fluent in 18 months." yech.

i love how anything is bashed in this forum because it's not whatever ideal someone else espouses. lol. i love you interwebz. I wasn't bringing up textfugu as a comparison of ideals. I brought it up about more realistic pricing plans. way to miss the point. :\ love you interwebz, once again.

I can't believe this thread is still going. I stopped reading and contributing backing on page 2 or 3...

@kainzero So starting strength is no good anymore? Maybe there should be a thread on weight training.

SendaiDan Wrote:I can't believe this thread is still going. I stopped reading and contributing backing on page 2 or 3...

Somehow we manage to soldier on without you. ^_^

Eikyu Wrote:@kainzero So starting strength is no good anymore? Maybe there should be a thread on weight training.

He linked a source that said Starting Strength was much better. I just started working out about 7 weeks ago. We should definitely have a workout thread, even if not weight training focused.

@Thora let me leave it at the point that I feel that there were many different ways that you could have address your original concern. New users aren't going to search around to find things to you left out.

Looking at the positives and negatives of something is critical thinking. This includes looking at all sides of an issue. Also, recognizing the limits of what actually known.

The question was very clear and wasn't anything about "authority". The question was about you and no one else. It wasn't about the answer that you wanted to give, but the answer that the questioner is checking for. It read "Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?" Maybe, the sticky point was the word "over."

じゃね

Omoishinji Wrote:Finally, people like me want at least a native speaker with good language skills.

I find this comment very interesting because I have learned the hard way to only take language advice from language learners. In my experience the average native speaker doesn't seem know very much about their own language. Even worse it seems like a large percentage of native speaking Japanese teachers don't know anything about the process of learning Japanese.

Amusingly my best Japanese teacher ever was terrible at English, but she had definitely figured out how foreigners learn Japanese. She also always had tons of non-textbook material for us taken from actual news articles and other random places. Oddly enough my experiences in her class are actually what made me start paying attention to Khatzu's writing. (Up until then I thought he was full of crap.)

I don't understand the idea of paying someone to nag me. Nagging really annoys me. I also hate automated mail, and am constantly 'removing' myself from lists I never signed up for in the first place. Each to their own I suppose. I wish I had had the idea. I can nag very well, according to my other half.

Omoishinji Wrote:Looking at the positives and negatives of something is critical thinking. This includes looking at all sides of an issue. Also, recognizing the limits of what actually known.

edit: oh...gee whiz...

Quote:Maybe, the sticky point was the word "over."

you clearly didn't understand my answer

yeah, this is irritation (unlike the OP...)

Thora Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:...

...

yeah, this is irritation (unlike the OP...)

Well, yes and no. See Thora, sometimes life is like a box of chocolates, but at the end of the day it can be other things. What you misunderstand is the keyword "of" in that and other contexts, which can be read many ways when you have an open mind. The path is sometimes the goal to be seen with one eye closed more slowly than the bending spoon moves. This is the most important thing. ;p

Eikyu Wrote:@kainzero So starting strength is no good anymore? Maybe there should be a thread on weight training.

err, no

what i was saying was that

1-too many people modify starting strength, fail, and then blame starting strength for their failure

2-there are people out there who taking existing, reliable information, modify it so they can claim it as their own, and then sell it to make lots of money.

3-despite being old, the principles of starting strength are still sound.


i'm sure the appropriate equivalent japanese learning programs can be substituted somewhere in those 3 bullet points.

There's going to be a new version of Silverspoon for those who have already completed RTK. Couldn't that be achieved by just ignoring the daily instructions to "input the following 12 kanji today" (between day x and day 140)? Is having someone break down RTK into daily chunks a valuable service? Will the price of this new version be lower as a result? I don't get it.

Breaking it up like that also makes the assumption that everyone learns at the same rate. It's not personalized so some people will be bored by slowness as others fall behind.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Breaking it up like that also makes the assumption that everyone learns at the same rate. It's not personalized so some people will be bored by slowness as others fall behind.

... which pretty much is the reason behind "classes suck" right? Kinda funny in a way.

Except a good Japanese class will have small enough class sizes and a good enough teacher to notice when someone is struggling and give them some extra help (or some advice for extra more advanced study if it's wanted).

..so actually it's worse than classes

Teachers who care can adjust and give specialized assignments to those who are ahead or behind the other students. This is frowned upon in Japan sometimes for helping students who are gifted though. I was told by the school president specifically not to help one genius young boy in Sakai city, Osaka when he was getting bored with his class work. She claimed she wanted every student finishing the year at the same level.

Though, I do agree classes are an inefficient way to learn language.