bodhisamaya Wrote:How much does a student make per hour these days that those with little time are willing to pay $1,000? A non-skilled job in America is about $10/hour, isn't it? At that rate, ignoring with-holdings, commuting time and related expenses, it would take 100 hours to earn.

I frickin' wish. I've made minimum wage for six years as a student now - and my state has the highest minimum wage in the US (8.67$ an hour). Even at my "up" job, after 90 days I'll only make 9.00$, with wages that are currently frozen and not likely to rise for years. And that doesn't include taxes, which I get more taken out of in this job than my other one. That also doesn't include having to pay bills, rent, or whatever other things that come up that are more important to pay than affording Silverspoon.

I think the "normal" minimum wage set by federal is less than 6$ an hour. Even if I had that much, I couldn't afford it...have to save for things like tuition, expenses (car repairs, vet bills), that kind of stuff.

Geeze I haven't made less that $10 an hour since high school in the 90s.

minimum wage here in canada is 10.25$ but varies between 10.25-10.75$. But that's probably because everything here is more expensive.

@Seizar. congrats on your success! And thanks for sharing your experience. It may be long (so are mine) but I think people searching for information will appreciate being able to read your post. Good luck with the Korean. (So you'll have Italian, English, Japanese, Korean and possibly more?)

Seizar Wrote:Now, I don't know the silverspoon routine and it looks like no one is willing to answer the question "how much time do silverspooners spend on Japanese everyday?", but assuming that that time doesn't exceed 6-8 hours/day, I don't see how he can guarantee that a method he hasn't tested can bring others to the same results as him in less than half the time. It just seems too big of an assumption to me.

hmm I thought I responded to that Q, but I guess I just thought about doing it. The hours and routine are described the SS blogs I linked to. One person said that it ranged from x - 9 hours [edit: not including pillow speaker time] but that isn't all activities. 9 hours could be 2 hours of activities and 7 hours of incomprehensible audio. For a description of the routine and activities, see the blog links my response to Chair. There's a detailed description in the other SS thread by jdietz.

Omoishinji Wrote:Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?

Because I'm cooler and more charming? ;-)

I'll respond later, I have a meeting. btw, I also lived/studies 5 min from the Japan Foundation in TO. It was my mini escape to Japan when I needed a fix.

Omoishinji Wrote:Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?

You should follow learning recommendations, advice from multiple perspectives that is flexible and open, and is based on logical ideas grounded in proven principles for learning, not closed, rigid proclamations from a single blogger that is based on a lot of fluff and the few ideas that aren't decades out of date or simply wrong are easily had for free elsewhere. The kind of effort and skills you need and develop in doing so are essential parts of the self-study process.

And it's natural for this thread to have developed to incorporate a focus on the basis/content of what you're paying thousands of dollars for with little hope for refund, the OP and its follow-up both describe the point as being the result of Khatzumoto crossing the line into unethical business territory, but we've been having to talk down ludicrous extremist takes on Khatzumoto's advice for ages, e.g. no English, no grammar, incomprehensible input; treating Khatzumoto as a guru was an issue even when it was free, it's the root of the problem.

Whether it's engendered by the tendency to rely on anecdotal evidence, to be influenced by the bias of the blog as a communication channel, Khatzumoto's style, the desire to seek out a magic pill, I don't know. Probably a combination of them all, and I can only hope we can do enough damage control to keep the online terrain for self-study from being dictated by that irrational way of thinking leading into a series of scammy language learning infomercials posing as helpful websites. ;p

omoishinji Wrote:@Thora is the comment about "misrepresents other learning methods" I find odd. Why don't you reconsider why you dismiss Silver Spoon? The basis of your complaint for you origianl post requirement to pay $1000 for Silver Spoon, and will not get refund until 18 month after the payment was made. Now the arguments have drifted from the original post, your original post.

Not sure I follow you.

I suggested neoglitch might want to reconsider his reason for why SS is useful b/c he invalidated his own stated reason by recommended the guide. I had started this thread as a last minute attempt to spotlight a couple of SS issues in time for the 24-hr sales opening on Aug 1. Perhaps naively optimistic, I had hoped to encouraged potential buyers to request different refund terms and be aware of the guarantee. That doesn't mean I have no other opinions about SS or AJATT generally.

I initially tried to keep the discussion focused on business issues b/c I didn't want that to get buried in stuff like "Was Khatz really fluent?", "AJATT sucks", "You're just anti-capitalist/envious/hate Khatz/too poor/suck at Japanese...". The thread topic subsequently expanded to include content of SS, value of SS, merits of AJATT, merits of classes, etc. I don't see how adding my thoughts on those topics contradicts the original purpose of this thread. In other words, I don't see anything for me to reconsider.

Also, how does this relate to "misrepresenting other learning methods?" I'm not misrepresenting SS by discussing one aspect of it in the OP and another aspect of it later.

Quote:However, it is interesting that you have listed various methods of learning Japanese, but seem to insist of out of hand dismissing "Khatzu's advice." You both seemed to have walked a similar path. I have one question. Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?

I think I've been pretty clear that I disagree with many aspects of Khatzu's advice (not absolutely everything.) I don't dismiss everything Khatz says just b/c he said it. That'd be silly. Besides, some of his advice is common sense stuff which everyone agrees with. Most of these criticisms have been voiced already a few times by several people in various threads. No need for me to specify them all in this thread.

I probably used "Katzu's advice" to include blog content (which might not be perceived as part of the "AJATT method" itself.) Hopefully we'll move away from thinking in terms of AJATT vs other methods. But sometimes it's convenient to use "AJATT", which unfortunately perpetuates that idea.

Why should you consider my advice about Silverspoon? Well, here's the thing, you don't need to rely on my "source of authority" to assess the information I've provided or my evaluation. It can stand on its own. You can check out other people's opinions, too. What I'm not doing is saying "Silverspoon sucks! It's boring and no one will ever improve with it. Just trust me because I'm _________." ;p

Many AJATT related comments are attempts to debunk and correct some of Khatz's extreme claims. He's more interested in buzz than accuracy. I don't recall saying much about Khatzu's advice here (other than saying I'm not a fan of complete reliance on implicit learning?). If you're curious about something specific I've mentioned, let me know. I can then tell you the source of my opinion, whether it's experience, education, research ... imagination, marketing dept, joke book. ;p

And no, I wouldn't say I've walked the same path as Khatz. We all have our own paths, right? :-)

I hope that answers your question.

i've only been seriously studying since the end of June (including just recently finishing RTK1 in right at a month). The info is so easy to find on the web, that it makes me wonder about people that can't find it. Then again, I'm not really shocked. Personally, I can see both sides of the 'classes' issue. It really depends on getting good instructors. I've seen that problem in both language classes, and when I was in college, art instructors as well. Get a bad one, and it can ruin you on the subject matter for a course (i hate 3Dimensional art due to having a crappy sculpture instructor for intro, it took me years to become ok with sculpture again). I took 2yrs of HS spanish and 1yr of college spanish (wanted to take jp back then but didn't due to the fact i would've had to take non-credit jp classes at that time) and honestly i can curse ok in spanish i suppose, but not much else (though to be fair, i can get the gist of conversations, but that's as much due to being able to read body language as well). Now...if i'd had Anki back then (mid to late 90s) I might've worked so much harder. handmade flashcards always intimidated me too much.

As far as SS (i can't help but think of nazis....gestapo is coming!), it does seem a bit overpriced. But I say that all the time about things in the world at large. Like, 'wtf people pay how much for bottled water?!' etc. Something I've not seen mentioned is Tofugu and his Textfugu. (i am not promoting this nor a user of it, merely showing that there are alternatives with more reasonable pricing setups). http://www.textfugu.com/pricing/ As you can see, he never claims anything unreasonable, $20 a month, $120 for a forever subscription, and he'll even credit you to the forever if you decide it's something you'd want after paying for a month or 2 at the monthly rate. His whole policy there sounds much more reasonable than SS. And i'd wager you get nearly the same thing.

I don't know if I'll reach fluency or not, personally I just like learning japanese and it fits with my loves of manga and anime as well as videogames, so I tend to cross paths with native media quite a bit. So i'm sure i'll eventually reach a passable level and be quite happy with that.

jhgoforth Wrote:From: Fayetteville Arkansas US

Woooo Pig Soooey!!!

bodhisamaya Wrote:

jhgoforth Wrote:From: Fayetteville Arkansas US

Woooo Pig Soooey!!!

hahaha indeed, 'Go Razorbacks!'.

@Thora (sorry, quotes have been removed with one exception because of length)

Reading your original post it seem as though you had some form of inside information. It is might have been better to directly express the concerns of the service, then seemly mocking it. Why wasn't it clearly written about the service contract? You seem to want to suggest that he would run off with "suckers money." That doesn't sound at the least bit objective.

I didn't say contradict. I said "drifted from the original post," as stated about your core concern.

I don't know whether or not you disagree with everything "Khatzu" has to say. However, your comments "seem to insist of out of hand dismissing "Khatzu's advice." I might be right, I might be wrong. I just don't know that why it seems to be that you do.

The phrase "common sense" is just way over used that it seems to have lost it meaning. "Common sense" is giving money to a well established brick and mortar company days before it seeks bankrupt protect.

I would suspect that AJATT has been around for sometime, and that the owner of that site is known. Maybe not in person but is known, but familiar to others.

You seem to have some knowledge about what is behind the pay-wall, or that the pay-wall doesn't exist. I previously stated there are busy people. These people might what one place to go to get all their material for their learning. So, if Silver Spoon offers this service, then the service is valuable to them. However, there is still a concerned about the guarantee.

Sorry, from what I understand is AJATT is someone business. AJATT offer as service called Silver Spoon, not a "source of authority" called Silver Spoon. Whether, or not it offers valuable services is unknown. Some have suggest that AJATT should offer a trail period.

The phrase "walk the same path" meant that you both have had ups and downs will studying Japanese. With that you both have given advice to others. Maybe, I should have used "similar paths" instead.

Thora Wrote:...
I suggested neoglitch might want to reconsider his reason for why SS is useful b/c he invalidated his own stated reason by recommended the guide.
....

From reading Neoglitch's comments it seems that he is giving alternatives, and not invalidating "his on stated reason." Both, he and I realize that there are people who would find the service valuable. "Recommended (the) guide" might be referring to the contents in a book, but unfortunately I don't have that book. It might just be a typo, but we are both fluent in English .

nest0r Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?

You should follow learning recommendations, advice from multiple perspectives that is flexible and open, and is based on logical ideas grounded in proven principles for learning, not closed, rigid proclamations from a single blogger that is based on a lot of fluff and the few ideas that aren't decades out of date or simply wrong are easily had for free elsewhere. The kind of effort and skills you need and develop in doing so are essential parts of the self-study process.

And it's natural for this thread to have developed to incorporate a focus on the basis/content of what you're paying thousands of dollars for with little hope for refund, the OP and its follow-up both describe the point as being the result of Khatzumoto crossing the line into unethical business territory, but we've been having to talk down ludicrous extremist takes on Khatzumoto's advice for ages, e.g. no English, no grammar, incomprehensible input; treating Khatzumoto as a guru was an issue even when it was free, it's the root of the problem.

Whether it's engendered by the tendency to rely on anecdotal evidence, to be influenced by the bias of the blog as a communication channel, Khatzumoto's style, the desire to seek out a magic pill, I don't know. Probably a combination of them all, and I can only hope we can do enough damage control to keep the online terrain for self-study from being dictated by that irrational way of thinking leading into a series of scammy language learning infomercials posing as helpful websites. ;p

I have encountered different type of claims that I am skeptical about. We, both recognize that second language learning has been occurring for centuries and isn't a new phenomenon. Language schools have gone online to provide services for their students. Currently both self study and instructional study co-exist online.

From my perception there is a legitimate concern about the service guarantee offered by AJATT. Specifically, the Silver Spoon service only giving a refund after the expiration of the service. However, based on the service guarantee I strong believe people will take the time to honestly consider it. I doubt that their will be anyone who is unsure about learning Japanese pay $1000 under the terms of service for Silver Spoon.

There are many "extreme claims" made about second language learning. The important things isn't how quickly you make progress, but that you are actually making progress.

Many people are always looking for the quick method, to make money, loss weight, and other things. We should be the rational ones by being direct and honest in what can be done. However, the most important is to be reassuring.

@Omoishinji

I agree, we should be direct and honest and counterbalance attempts to exploit others with extreme claims and shady efforts to take uncertain learners' money, enabled by cultish zeal for a specific personality. That's why this thread and those like it are so important, despite efforts to bully critics into silence.

jhgoforth Wrote:Something I've not seen mentioned is Tofugu and his Textfugu.

This is the complete opposite of AJATT and SS. It's a bunch of sanitized stuff made specifically for beginners. This is the exact kind of material people who subscribe to SS are trying to stay away from.

The Tofugu guy has always kind of creeped me out for some reason. I don't know anything about whatever services he does or what's on his blog if he has one. Just saw a few youtube vids a few years ago.

He has a site where he puts up articles about Japan and about learning Japanese. I find myself disagreeing with just about all of them, it seems.

He also wrote somewhere that he thinks you can't learn through immersion because "You're not a Japanese child, you don't hear the language 24/7" etc. Surprising as he has to promote his textbook.

Tofugu = grammar-Khatz

Jarvik7 Wrote:The Tofugu guy has always kind of creeped me out for some reason. I don't know anything about whatever services he does or what's on his blog if he has one. Just saw a few youtube vids a few years ago.

Haha, I like your comment

From all of his articles I've read, I found only 1 article that was of any use for me at all. All else was such common sense that ...

Tofugu guy just strikes me as a self-proclaimed Japan expert with relatively little apparent actual experience of Japan and no indication of high level in Japanese despite being at it for 8 years, I get the feeling he's a perpetual student...he seems to think that は／が means is/am/are...

nadiatims Wrote:Tofugu guy just strikes me as a self-proclaimed Japan expert with relatively little apparent actual experience of Japan and no indication of high level in Japanese despite being at it for 8 years, I get the feeling he's a perpetual student...he seems to think that は／が means is/am/are...

Little experience and no indication of high level Japanese? How could you say that when hes a well known tutor on edufire?
http://edufire.com/users/2721-languages-...r-koichi-c

And he never charged that much for his stuff, I'm sure its because smart.fm started asking for cash, his decks were taken down which tied in with what hes trying to sell. Why not when hes a teacher?

Anyone can become a tutor on edufire:

edufire's faq]How do I get started teaching on eduFire?
Getting started teaching on eduFire is easy. Sign up and create your profile (the better and more complete your profile the more likely you'll be to get new students). You'll soon receive messages from students interested in learning from you. Pretty simple huh? (top of page)[/quote]
more:

[quote=edufire's faq Wrote:What are the qualifications necessary to tutor on eduFire?
There are no minimum qualifications necessary to tutor on eduFire. However, the better a tutor you are the more likely you will be to attract new students and charge a higher price for your services. We strongly encourage you to update your profile with any information that will make a student more likely to select you including your education, credentials, certifications, etc. (top of page)

see the problem here?

I always felt Tofugu was an okay guy. I thought it was spectacular when he torched smart.fm for being unethical as soon as they went against their promise and began charging for services. His services are for low level students, but he has never claimed it to be anything more.

Yeah that Tofugu person doesn't really seem to know what they're talking about, at least none of the times I read their site, or what I could make out of their site past all the ads and affiliate stuff (Edufire or something?). ;p

JapanesePod and LingQ seem more worthwhile.

bodhisamaya Wrote:I always felt Tofugu was an okay guy. I thought it was spectacular when he torched smart.fm for being unethical as soon as they went against their promise and began charging for services. His services are for low level students, but he has never claimed it to be anything more.

Only a few people living really don't learn or study Japanese, which is remarkable. It doesn't require a deep understand of Japanese to offer advice to beginner, only recognizing the problem encountered while studying Japanese.

Omoishinji Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:I always felt Tofugu was an okay guy. I thought it was spectacular when he torched smart.fm for being unethical as soon as they went against their promise and began charging for services. His services are for low level students, but he has never claimed it to be anything more.

Only a few people living really don't learn or study Japanese, which is remarkable. It doesn't require a deep understand of Japanese to offer advice to beginner, only recognizing the problem encountered while studying Japanese.

Of course when you switch to that you're entering the territory of how skilled and experienced they are in thinking about Japanese from a metalinguistic perspective, from thinking about learning from a pedagogical/metacognitive perspective, etc. If you add money to the equation it becomes important to offer some sort of professional guarantee that you're offering sound advice, a guarantee that it's hard for beginners to check on, especially when you wrap the advice in self-directed paradigms that place much of the onus, theoretically, on the learner (even when part of the service's problem is that it fails in that goal).

nest0r Wrote:... If you add money to the equation it becomes important to offer some sort of professional guarantee that you're offering sound advice, a guarantee that it's hard for beginners to check on...

I agree and disagree. Let me explain. Qualifications is important to assure students of any level that the person has the appropriate knowledge. With any service it is also important to have a clear and easy to understand description of the service. Something that explain the methodology used, or the philosophy behind the instruction model. This is part of the professional guarantee.

However, Qualifications isn't the most important factor, professionalism and quality are. That is someone that is willing to work hard to improve on their deficiencies. One method of determining this is through user statements of praise. Everyone has to start from some where. Also, it is the monetary amount (but that is what I thing you meant).

Finally, people like me want at least a native speaker with good language skills.