dtcamero Wrote:i'm sorry but if jmedia isn't fun you need to reexamine why you're doing this... and if textbooks are more fun then you might have to reexamine your priorities in life ;D

People learn Japanese for all kinds of reasons - not just fun jmedia.

My FUN rant ;p (Not aimed specifically at you dtcamero)

So language learning is divided into "fun" and "unfun" with all the cool people doing only "fun". ;p Khatz felt compelled at one point to write an article explaining that by "fun" he didn't mean the thrill-of-a-roller-coast type of fun. People derive pleasure from the sense of purpose or accomplishment related to an unfun activity. Babies are often unfun. Relationships aren't always fun. Piano technique is unfun.

Khatz has done a great job spreading the word that people can learn with their favourite media and it doesn't require classes. That doesn't mean all unfun activities are useless, though. He doesn't want people to give up, so he encourages them to switch to something fun. But this could also be viewed as a reflection of people's inability to defer gratification or control their focus. (ie not really something for to be so gleefully proud of.)

It's also an empty marketing slogan, because let's face it, most people would not consider any of these fun, right?

SRS, incomprehensible audio for hours, 10K sentences,
decoding monolingual dictionary entries, RTK,

So Khatz engages in a good kind of "bait and switch." He attracts a certain demographic with "classes suck", "teachers suck", "anime rules", "grammar sucks", "fun", "fun", "fun".... and then sneaks in all the boring work, starts dropping serious documentary links, gets folks reading the news, slips some big ideas in with all the cool, funny stuff. "Hey, wtf just happened?!"

He seems like a smart guy and I think his efforts to introduce people to all genres of Japanese media and new ideas is fantastic. I agree with tokyostyle and icecream that he should develop this part the business (and generate learning materials from it, I think) He's uniquely positioned and talented to do this and it would take him into the non-beginner market.

Khatz has described his own language journey as not all fun and actually requiring a lot of sacrifices. He knows it involves some hard work. People who become really good at anything push through all the unfun bits. But that isn't the impression you'd get if you read Khatzians ;-) all over the web. It's all about having "Fun" "Fun" "Fun" "Classes are boring" "AJATT is fun!"

It's a bit tiresome. It makes people sound like dimwitted followers when I suspect they're mostly really bright individualists. My first impression was that Khatz had low expectations of his followers: that they'll be able to handle it if it's disguised as a fun game! Kind of like hiding the healthy turnips in peanut butter for little Johnnie? Khatzians deserve better. ;-)

Neoglitch17 Wrote:And finally, I do maintain my position that classes are terribly ineffective, because I know from experience. I studied English all my life at school and 4 1/2 years at an English institute and I didn't achieve fluency because of them. They provided me with a useful base for when I went to the U.S. as an exchange student, but years of studying did NOT give me full fluency and understanding in English, far from it.

As for Japanese I took classes for 2 1/2 years at University. Our sensei was an awesome guy and classes with him were fun, but we rarely had contact with any real Japanese, we only learned (supposedly) 160 kanji after all those years, had to drill them by hand several times (not fun), and well... we all ended up knowing no real Japanese. It was fun, but ineffective.

Anecdotal evidence. You have experienced ineffective classes--you don't KNOW that classes are ineffective.

i'm not sure that I understand what classwork has over anki-srs work?

for one thing, you'll remember what you're being told, forever...

But primarily it's a difference between prof-directed self study and self-directed study. Self-directed study has the option of not doing boring things. Everything is custom tailored to you: difficulty level, subject matter, grading criteria, etc... and as long as the media you're studying from is for native speakers it will be good quality teaching material.

Also I think the reason people come out of those overseas courses in 1 year speaking the language is that they are doing massive input the entire time... (even hearing things in their sleep, the insinuation of benefit here causing people to tear their hair out I know...) I would totally do a 1 year course in an overseas jpnese school if I could drop everything and take a year off now...

dtcamero Wrote:i'm not sure that I understand what classwork has over anki-srs work?
for one thing, you'll remember what you're being told, forever...
But primarily it's a difference between prof-directed self study and self-directed study. Self-directed study has the option of not doing boring things. Everything is custom tailored to you: difficulty level, subject matter, grading criteria, etc... and as long as the media you're studying from is for native speakers it will be good quality teaching material.
But also I think the reason people come out of those overseas courses in 1 year speaking the language is that they are doing massive input the entire time... (even hearing things in their sleep, the insinuation of benefit here causing people to tear their hair out I know...) I would totally do a 1 year course in an overseas jpnese school if I could drop everything and take a year off now...

If you have the chance, DO THAT. That's how I mastered English, by going to the U.S. as an exchange student for a year. Only don't make the mistake of doing only stuff in English, it can happen

Tzadeck Wrote:You want to be able to speak remarkably good Japenese in just one year? Do the FALCON program at Cornell. (You'd have class, primarily in Japanese with a native speaker, from 9 in the morning to 4:30 in the afternoon, then lab work for three hours in the evening, for an entire year.)

This class is an outlier and yet at the same time it has a lot in common with AJATT. It involves large amounts of in class hours which, from my understanding, are entirely immersion based. Then once you are out of class it is expected you will continue studying a few hours a day on your own. So they've mapped out a path to fast fluency that basically involves being in contact with Japanese for most of your waking hours.

According to their website the full year program costs $37,750 and doesn't include the cost of books, supplies, or housing. Also that assumes you already know enough to get in. If you don't you have to take their summer program which is $8,440. Their 18 month program to fluency is $46,190 plus books, housing, and travel expenses.

SilverSpoon is roughly 30 times cheaper than this and offering the same results without the need to rearrange your life in order to travel to Cornell and live there. The FALCON program is most certainly better, but I wonder if it's actually 30 times better. Honestly it doesn't matter because they are serving two different markets.

So we know the goal is academically possible in 18 months. I guess the only question left is if Khatzu can organize people's time as well as a in-class program and if he can select and suggest material that allows a smooth path to fluency.

Thora Wrote:I agree with tokyostyle

I just wanted to save that because it's so rare and precious.

@ Thora
I can't speak for Khatzians, but I like those more high-brow recommendations. I think 大河ドラマ is fantastic, for one. Fun could probably be replaced by the word enjoyment but it wouldn't make for good ads ;D

And I agree study is work but if you incorporate your favorite media into it it becomes more enjoyable. it's like watching tv while running... win win. come on you should try making a subs2srs deck...

tokyostyle Wrote:According to their website the full year program costs $37,750 and doesn't include the cost of books, supplies, or housing. Also that assumes you already know enough to get in. If you don't you have to take their summer program which is $8,440. Their 18 month program to fluency is $46,190 plus books, housing, and travel expenses.

Haha, I'm not suggesting that you do the FALCON program if you're not enrolled in Cornell. If you're enrolled and it's part of your major (if you're doing something Asian Studies or Japanese related), then it's a really awesome program. And, of course, a degree from Cornell is a great thing for anything you want to do in the future. I was just giving an example of one program that does a really great job, and that for some people is a viable option. Actually, there are a lot of Japanese programs in America that are very similar to the one at Cornell, though the one at Cornell is well-known for being one of the best.

Actually, I know a girl who did it despite majoring in agriculture, and she still managed to graduate on time despite spending a whole year doing Japanese. It was just done under her regular tuition.

Also, another guy I know did the summer FALCON program for free with a scholarship (he was attending Ithica College at the time during the regular academic year), so it's not entirely impossible even if you don't have the money.

Instead of wasting your money on promises of mailorder fluency for the low low price of $2999.95, just start studying and spend a week reading the forum. I promise you'll be fluent in 2-4 years if you do that and use the information you gather to apply yourself every day. I have several friends who work 100-150 hours per week and have brain implants that prevent them from knowing how to manage their time or organizing information, and by reading this forum and studying every day they became fluent in 3 years.

If you pay for Silverspoon you're supporting international drug cartels and violent insurgents who are out to deceive learners and take their money. They want to create a culture of fear of self-study where they have the only drug that can get you what you want. Stop them before it's too late.

One of my friends took Japanese at my university, and now he has three kids and once got a speeding ticket. In other words, Japanese class with will make you drive fast and your wife pregnant.

Anecdotes yay.

J7's going senile. And half of Bodhisamaya's jokes involve alcohol (I took half my RevTK stories from him).

Is this what awaits us?

Go senile in only 80 years with LeadPaint.

Thora Wrote:I agree with tokyostyle

tokyostyle Wrote:I just wanted to save that because it's so rare and precious.

aahh...hug. Not so rare, really.

Re Falcom, didn't Tzadeck say it's for spoken?

I've seen some great results from intensive spoken programs (govt, corp and church mission). The spoken →　reading/writing route is one that doesn't get much love here. (I blame that on AJATT, too.) ;p

dtcamero Wrote:I can't speak for Khatzians,

I prefer the real you, my dear. (don't take advantage of my gullibility, you little turd.) ;p

Quote:but I like those more high-brow recommendations.

I think he's a actually high-brow uptight serious hardworking guy ... the cool slacker image is for $$. heh (now THAT is character assassination)

JimmySeal Wrote:@gdaxeman - I think that whatever you consider to be "not much effort," objectively, finding an alternative to Silverspoon requires far less effort than any of the things you listed.

Yes indeed, but there's so much more than that. What I'm saying is, many points against SilverSpoon in this thread boil down to this:

• it's not worth what it costs;
• Save money by not buying it;
• Prevent the chance of wasting time and not getting results;
• Avoid the possibility of not getting your money back when/if it doesn't work;
• Foster self-sufficiency by searching for resources yourself.

The underlying opinion of someone who does the things I suggested earlier—and even more—about those who don't is, in essence, the same as of those here who are against SilverSpoon, that is, "you're wasting your time and money by doing that" and "you're not trying hard enough." In some ways, it's like that proverb/Heisig story (for inter-): they are worrying about the splint in other's eyes while there's a log in theirs. The SilverSpoon detractors, that is.

midnightsun Wrote:I know two people who have used the AJATT method and passed the old JLPT level 2 first time and then level 1, again, first time. It can done. Took just over 2 years, longer than 18 months, but consider one of them studied medicine at the same time! The other worked in a Japanese bank full time.

Just out of curiosity: Considering that the JLPT is only offered once per year in most countries and twice per year in a few selected countries, if your friends passed JLPT2 after 2 years of study, when did they pass JLPT1?

Or did they pass JLPT2 after 1 year and JLPT1 after 2 years of studying?

JLPT1 in 3 years is pretty common for serious learners.

Asriel Wrote:I'm guessing implicit/explicit learning kind of matches up with the passive/active learning that I kind of came up with?

Yes, implicit would include all modes though (your eg just happened to be speaking/socializing). If I recall correctly, I think Paul Nation's article is very similar.

Also, I didn't mean to suggest it was only classes (as opposed to independent active learning). Was just emphasizing that class time alone was never meant to be sufficient. So comparing the results of AJATT to one JPN elective course doesn't make much sense. Yet that's the common.

@neoglitch - yes, those activities you mention are explicit learning. I think what I had in mind was the no grammar section following kana/kanji stages. I won't reread it now, but I recall the message that all learning must be by 'osmosis' and one must never learn about the language, think about grammar, do any exercises, etc. If you're interested, check out nest0r's article for a different perspective.

Thora Wrote:

nedglitch Wrote:By paying for the guide (or even SilverSpoon) you exchange your money for "not wasting time doing research",

I think you need to reconsider how you justify SS. You repeated at least 5 times in one post that SSis for people who are too busy or lazy to research how to study. But then you end with the comment that they could solve that problem with the guide instead. So, they DON'T need SS for that. You need to find some other justification for SS. The exact timing of activities is not critical. And it sounds like daily motivate and links can be had through Twitter. So what exactly do you think is left, Neoglitch? (Not a rhetorical question.)

The Middle Truth
You're welcome for the link. (Is there some reason you linked to yourself again?) Maybe you can do me the favour of discussing without making it a AJATT vs. others thing? The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :-)

Your articles:
Also, as I said earlier, please don't take my mentioning your lens as an endorsement. I think there are serious problems with the advice it contains. One big mistake is the idea that 100% language learning must be implicit learning. There's a lot of research indicating that a mix of implicit and explicit is better than either alone. Other methods (which also include exposure, AJATT didn't invent that) provide both.

I think your lens is too extreme, too black and white, inconsistent with the results of much research, and misrepresents other learning methods. It does describe and link useful resources, though. My take on it is that you are echoing Khatz without much personal knowledge or much experience, so I wonder how you justify being so adamant? Is it passion from your enjoyment of learning Japanese?

Khatz didn't invent self-study or use of native materials:
Like Jarvik, I've seen people achieve results similar to Khatzumoto's in ~2 years using various combinations of methods over the years I've been interested in Japanese learning. Typically each class would have one or two keeners. Some guys did it without classes. (And imagine, early on this was achieved without SRS or even a computer. Paper dictionaries. Searching words by looking up the first kanji by its official primitive and stroke # in a kanji dict.) Some of us attended Kumon in Japan on tiny chairs with little kiddies to get our kanji down. lol Some went the JLPT route. Everyone had opportunities for speaking (output isn't something to be afraid of, it's necessary.) Khatz didn't invent self-study. We were combining classes with RTK, simple paper Leitner card systems and exposure decades ago. Media was just way more limited. You guys are so lucky! Nobody required 24/7 immersion. I feel you need to widen your perspective a bit.

The key point is that Khatzu's achievement is not so special that people should think they need to follow his path. People have figured out their own paths before him. Take what's good for you and move one. That was always Khatz's advice. That is not Silverspoon.

There is no AJATT vs Classes:
There is no Great Divide (even though Khatzu would like you to think that). It has always been classes+exposure. It's a shame it gets such airtime as it might cause some to overlook a quality option. Quality of programs obviously varies.

@Thora is the comment about "misrepresents other learning methods" I find odd. Why don't you reconsider why you dismiss Silver Spoon? The basis of your complaint for you origianl post requirement to pay $1000 for Silver Spoon, and will not get refund until 18 month after the payment was made. Now the arguments have drifted from the original post, your original post.

There are busy people who are looking for an alternate ways study a new langauge. This has been long recognized by educators. The result has been in the creation of various products and services. The first product or service that comes to my mind is "Japanese for busy People." Also, I think of Kumon.

I wouldn't use the term lazy, but people who are overwhelmed by the task and the options. There are people who would like a single place to go to for all their langauge, learning.

It was while searching for information on some supplementary learning materials that I came across this site. Like many other people I take the time to evaluate what material is available to aid in me making my decision. This is the same if I am planning on registering for a certain course or program at any school. Learners also take the time to read other people suggests, and seek advice. That is the advantage of the Internet in relationship to language learning, when a professional isn't available.

However, it is interesting that you have listed various methods of learning Japanese, but seem to insist of out of hand dismissing "Khatzu's advice." You both seemed to have walked a similar path. I have one question. Why should I consider your advice over Khatzu?

AJATT has always seemed to me to be for people with a ton of free time. I don't see how that's compatible with the target market of "people with no time to even use google".

Exactly as Jarvik says. His strategy seems to basically be 24/7 immersion/osmosis your way to fluency (while denying the huge contextual boost that comes from using translations and/or mass vocabulary learning via efficient methods), which just isn't practical for most people, especially if you're also expected to be constructing and reviewing all these damn monolingual and/or cloze delete flashcards.

So, seems like the quotes in the AJATT silverspoon banner - I checked when that 'quotes' thread popped up - that consist of text ripped from my first post in this thread still haven't been removed, nor has Khatz sent anything to explain why he would choose to deny my request that they be removed (I sent him a message last Wednesday or Thursday asking him to).

So. Either he's too busy to pay any attention to the messages sent to him by readers while he's not too busy to create these quotes to begin with, or he's just ignoring my request. Either way, I think he's being a disrespectful bastard who can't uphold the most basic 'net courtesy even though he sees himself as fit to run an internet business. So there's that.

As I said before I have no interest in anything AJATT anymore and am only offended by the abuse of what I (and others) wrote on a free forum by someone trying to make money and I won't be reading this thread. Judging by the length I'm guessing it's become a pointless timesink by now anyway. Send me a PM if you want to reach me.

I've been studying Japanese mostly by following advice from this forum and adapting it to my situation, and while I remember clearly a couple of times where I was kinda lost for what to do next, threads like Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners and Users study methods helped tremendously in developing what has become my study method (which is nothing fancy, but seems to work perfectly for my needs).

FWIW, this "personal method" got me a pass (though not by much) on last December N1, without really studying for it (some practice tests with the old format and a quick go at a vocab list to see if I was missing much).
I started with rtk when I registered here, so that's about 18-19 months if I'm doing the math right. Mind you I didn't start exactly from 0 as I have a failed attempt on my back, about 2 months messing with a course textbook which didn't really get me far (hiragana/katakana, a handful of kanji and basic grammar) but at least I more or less had an idea of what to expect. I think that's a common start point for many silverspooners/ajatters too, seeing as it seems to target people that are "tired" of conventional methods (which probably means they have tried them).

I'm happy with my progress even though I wouldn't call me fluent by any definition, but more than anything I'm happy with my new self: the most rewarding aspect of the whole experience was realizing that I'm able to stick to a long-term project drawing my own path, which changed my views on many non-Japanese related things.
Of the whole AJATT thing, more than the methods I really liked the "find what work for yourself and JFDI" approach. In that respect I didn't really "understand" Silverspoon when I first read of it.

But.

Now that I've been studying Korean too for a couple of months and the initial enthusiasm has faded, I'm starting to remember how much of a bitch the beginner phase can be. I think that's easily forgotten.
Not being able to understand stuff in the language you are studying means being in the dark regarding the actual effectiveness of whatever method we are using.
It takes a big leap of faith to just accept this and keep going, and if I hadn't had my experience with Japanese behind me I would have probably quit at least 3 times already.
Even if I have the resources, I don't really know what to do with them, how to use them, if I can "trust" them.
Part of the problem is that I have yet to find a serious and dedicated community like this one, but even if I had found one it's not always easy for a beginner to distinguish good from bad advice, and it can't be asked of a community to give advice according to the needs of every student, not to mention that in such a phase the student isn't probably even fully aware of what he wants.

So I keep going, messing around fully knowing that at some point something is bound to work and give me some results, but even then occasionally I find myself thinking that something like silverspoon could help me a lot.
It's not really about the time saved by not having to look for resources, but the fact that it is much easier to just let go of worries and do stuff if someone is telling you "hey, this works, try it", EVEN if it turns out that it won't work as well as you were expecting/promised, at least you are doing something and putting in the time. Which is probably all that matters.

That being said, in it's current incarnation silverspoon doesn't really appeal to me (even a hypothetical Korean version). I'm ok with some hand holding, but from my point of view it could actually be detrimental in the long run. I know I benefited a lot from trying things for myself and would hate to miss on that.
I would actually really like (and probably recommend to friends) a more intense, condensed version aimed at getting people out of the beginner phase fast, where they can start appreciating native media with some decent understanding. From there self-cruising shouldn't be a problem, I think.

Of course there's the matter with the price and the refund policy, which has been discussed in great detail already.
The claims about the promised fluency also pose some doubts.
I have no qualms believing that Kathz reached whatever levels of awesomeness in Japanese in 18 months, from the first descriptions of his methods he was spending some disproportionately high amount of time messing with the language, it would actually be weird if he didn't get a good grasp of Japanese after spending 12~16*540 hours with it. And I'm sure that looking back and making some adjustments he could devise a somewhat better method.
Now, I don't know the silverspoon routine and it looks like no one is willing to answer the question "how much time do silverspooners spend on Japanese everyday?", but assuming that that time doesn't exceed 6-8 hours/day, I don't see how he can guarantee that a method he hasn't tested can bring others to the same results as him in less than half the time. It just seems too big of an assumption to me.

That, and his description of fluency just seems weird to me. I think I'd struggle with some of those points in my native language even, and they don't seem that strongly linked with understanding/command of the language to me.
Also, though this is just a pet peeve of mine, I really hate when people say "understand 95% of stuff". I'm aware that it is more of a figure of speech than a reliable statistic, but do people realize that it would be actually a really low level for it to be called "fluency"? It could be as bad as missing the meaning of a sentence per page, or having to use the dictionary for a few thousand of words when reading a book, doesn't really sound that fluent to me. Actually I remember reading somewhere (was probably something linked in this forum) that that kind of understanding is considered more of a starting point to be able to learn from reading/listening.

Sorry for the long rambling, I rarely post so I tend to make up for it with length

dtcamero Wrote:i'm not sure that I understand what classwork has over anki-srs work?

for one thing, you'll remember what you're being told, forever...

But primarily it's a difference between prof-directed self study and self-directed study. Self-directed study has the option of not doing boring things. Everything is custom tailored to you: difficulty level, subject matter, grading criteria, etc... and as long as the media you're studying from is for native speakers it will be good quality teaching material.

Also I think the reason people come out of those overseas courses in 1 year speaking the language is that they are doing massive input the entire time... (even hearing things in their sleep, the insinuation of benefit here causing people to tear their hair out I know...) I would totally do a 1 year course in an overseas jpnese school if I could drop everything and take a year off now...

I think class-work and Anki-srs work work best TOGETHER. Anki has what the professor is unable to do - to spend tons of time working with you. Professor salaries are going down, workload and classloads are going up (least at my university). There are...three profs going up for tenure in my department this year alone, and that's stressful on them. Course, I study social sciences and so the salaries suck in general.

I think the reason teachers don't do as much as they could anymore is because they know the majority of the students don't give a flying damn. They could promote AJATT/give fun things to immerse in and probably 80%-90% of the class wouldn't do it - so why try? Especially in the intro classes. People are there to get their language classes and then get the heck out the door. Teachers/professors burn out like everyone else does - or they're restricted by their universities on what they can and cannot teach.

How much does a student make per hour these days that those with little time are willing to pay $1,000? A non-skilled job in America is about $10/hour, isn't it? At that rate, ignoring with-holdings, commuting time and related expenses, it would take 100 hours to earn.

@Seizar

So what method did you use? Passing N1 in 18 months is pretty impressive, so please share. You started explaining but I think you forgot about it