what are these professors going to do for you that is so helpful? get you onto a better textbook like Genki? help you memorize verb conjugation tables? explain a handful of idioms? have an awkward hour of forced incorrect japanese? these techniques are bunk and you just need to immerse with and study actual jmedia in the wild. the irony is that khatz doesn't need to be smarter than a prof because The Japanese People are doing the teaching, and largely know what they're talking about.

i'm sorry but if jmedia isn't fun you need to reexamine why you're doing this... and if textbooks are more fun then you might have to reexamine your priorities in life ;D

Over the years, my library card has been worth well over $1,000. If someone came up to me and told me they could renew it for that price, it would be a scam. I just need to walk to the library and do it myself. Without water, I will die, but I will not pay $1,000 for "memory" water. It may create a false belief in my mind it is worth it, but it is not.

Thora did a community service to new students everywhere by becoming outraged. If it wasn't a scam, he would have addressed why on this forum. He obviously reads it.

Let's review the facts:
#1- No one in the history of his website has gone from zero to passing the JLPT in 18 months, the minimum by any standards for fluency.
#2- He is selling a book of links in electronic form for $600-$1,500 (if it hasn't gone up like Thora said)
#3- If you don't like his service, he will refund your money in 2013.

Perhaps he is just a businessman and after-all, all businessmen take advantage of the weak of mind. If so, you can never criticize televangelists, faith healers or psychics as it requires charisma to exceed in those fields as well.

dtcamero Wrote:what are these professors going to do for you that is so helpful? get you onto a better textbook like Genki? help you memorize verb conjugation tables? explain a handful of idioms? have an awkward hour of forced incorrect japanese? these techniques are bunk and you just need to immerse with and study actual jmedia in the wild. the irony is that khatz doesn't need to be smarter than a prof because The Japanese People are doing the teaching, and largely know what they're talking about.

-shrug- There are good professors, there are bad professors. Not all use textbooks or verb conjugation tables. For some students it works well. For some it doesn't. Some would say "just immerse and study actual jmedia" is bunk. In fact I think that's a technique that actually burns a lot of people out - the moving straight into media without any background.

I'd be more trusting of what someone with a PhD would say over some random dude over the internet. Just sayin'. Especially if it's a PhD I've worked with a lot and seen their skills - or someone who does language research.

Read this thread for a while now. I have mixed views re Silverspoon as reflected elsewhere in this thread. However, it does seem to me that Thora et al come across as aggressive and rather superior and elitist. I remember the Anki guy getting slammed for charging for new applications, now Khatz. His site was around for a long time before he charged for anything. Both guys may have used help from others but nobody can deny the work they put in (including Fabrice on this site) If you think you can do better, then set up your own site and services and do it for free. Stop pontificating.

Also, most universities charge thousands of dollars a year for alot less. Don't be too impressed by academics. This is a world I know. Few want to teach in the first place; fewer can actually teach; they would rather do research (and yes that is what you are paying for, in reality). Most research is overdone, adds little, is read by a few and suffers the same bitching as seen here (only they call it peer group review!) There are exceptions eg. science and medicine. American degree are not worth much now anyway. Everyone has to get an Masters just to prove they can read. UK is going the same way. Recent induction tests of some UK grads I have been involved with were awful. What do they teach those guys?

Most foreign services/institutes reckon they can teach near Japanese fluency in two years. Mostly it works. I reckon it takes five years sustained and quite intense effort to achieve mastery but diplomats I have met do very well after two. I wonder what the true cost of such a course is? Certainly not $1K

I know two people who have used the AJATT method and passed the old JLPT level 2 first time and then level 1, again, first time. It can done. Took just over 2 years, longer than 18 months, but consider one of them studied medicine at the same time! The other worked in a Japanese bank full time.

Time will tell on Silverspoon. Some will like the hand holding. Am writing to Khatz with some practical advice on how this can be done without his name be slammed here. Don't always get the humour of Khatz but he seems decent. I know who I would rather have a drink with. Why does he get this venom?

bodhisamaya Wrote:Over the years, my library card has been worth well over $1,000. If someone came up to me and told me they could renew it for that price, it would be a scam. I just need to walk to the library and do it myself. Without water, I will die, but I will not pay $1,000 for "memory" water. It may create a false belief in my mind it is worth it, but it is not.

This.

I think it's hilarious that people are trying to swing it as "hahaha you must be so poor to not be willing to pay $1000 for fluency". Let me be clear, $1000 is borderline impulse buy territory for me. I can afford it. I just think what he is selling isn't worth it. If you think it is, more power to you. We disagree and are trying to warn people who may be sucked in by his charm.

midnightsun Wrote:I know who I would rather have a drink with.

No thanks, I don't drink.

midnightsun Wrote:generalizations, you people need to be silent, blogs rule, classes suck, khatzumoto is cool, i have a friend of a friend who got fluent... insult insult...

Thanks for sharing, undecided passerby!

nohika Wrote:There are good professors, there are bad professors. Not all use textbooks or verb conjugation tables. For some students it works well. For some it doesn't. Some would say "just immerse and study actual jmedia" is bunk. In fact I think that's a technique that actually burns a lot of people out - the moving straight into media without any background. [...] I'd be more trusting of what someone with a PhD would say over some random dude over the internet.

for learning ABOUT a language, or linguistics, college classes make a lot of sense... it's acquiring a body of knowledge like any other. But aquiring the language itself is a SKILL, like oil painting... and you're not gonna be anything other than an art historian until you jump in the water and figure out how to swim... (excuse my mixed metaphors here ;P)

foreign institutes do teach fairly effectively but i'd say the reason has more to do with nights out at jpnese bars (& possibly jgirlfriends) than grammar points from classwork.

You'd be better off spending money on class tuition and earning credits on your way to some sort of certification, even if you doodle in class and spend your time outside class Googling for free Japanese self-study tips, than you would by paying thousands for a scam like Silverspoon. You'd reach fluency faster as well, if the advice amounts to just mindlessly immersing yourself in fun stuff.

Silverspoon is good because classes are worse? I suppose Mao was good because Stalin was worse. He didn't invent the idea self study was better than classes.

If you use Silverspoon and study 40 hours a week, you will almost certainly be fluent in four years.

If you drink a shot of whiskey every morning and study 40 hours a week, you will almost certainly be fluent in four years.

A few pages back I made my case that good classes actually work really well, and I think the 'classes suck' mentality is silly. There is such a wide variety of classes of different levels of quality, so it would be correct only to say that some classes suck and some classes are really good.

You want to be able to speak remarkably good Japenese in just one year? Do the FALCON program at Cornell. (You'd have class, primarily in Japanese with a native speaker, from 9 in the morning to 4:30 in the afternoon, then lab work for three hours in the evening, for an entire year.)

ruiner Wrote:

midnightsun Wrote:generalizations, you people need to be silent, blogs rule, classes suck, khatzumoto is cool, i have a friend of a friend who got fluent... insult insult...

Thanks for sharing, undecided passerby!

You prove my point. Your quote is disingenous. It is also deceitful to quote it as if it were my post. You are entitled to your opinion and perhaps your interpretation of my post (even if wrong) but don't make it out as if these were my actual words.

The friends are mine. AJATT worked for them and as far as I can tell reading past threads it works for people here too. It would not have for me. I like more sturcture. Actually, I could not follow Khatz's method, but I recognize it works for others. BTW my friends have read this thread. The Doctor would have paid for Silverspoon the Banker said no way!

Classes can work given the right teacher and motivated student, but experience and many threads in this forum have shown that they don't work for a great many people, which should not happen given the thousands of dollars paid for the degrees.

@dtcamero you wrote,
"foreign institutes do teach fairly effectively but i'd say the reason has more to do with nights out at jpnese bars (& possibly jgirlfriends) than grammar points from classwork."

For the courses I know about (US, UK and Germany), they are not held in Japan but in the home country for 18 months with 6 months in Japan. This can vary. They study from 0900 to 1700 hrs with up to 3 hours homework each day and more for the weekend. This is Mon to Friday. They work very hard and the teaching is focused with almost immediate immersion in the target language. Japanese took about 2 years. Spanish, French et al took about 6 months. They were pretty fluent by the time they had a Japanese girlfriend if they had one. One was good enough to appear on Japanese television holding live press conferences within a month of his posting. However, could he also translate a technical manual without even more training? I doubt it. A good University course should be taught to near this level. Few are.

Anyway. Have said enough. Must not turn this into a blog. Oh no.

nedglitch Wrote:By paying for the guide (or even SilverSpoon) you exchange your money for "not wasting time doing research",

I think you need to reconsider how you justify SS. You repeated at least 5 times in one post that SSis for people who are too busy or lazy to research how to study. But then you end with the comment that they could solve that problem with the guide instead. So, they DON'T need SS for that. You need to find some other justification for SS. The exact timing of activities is not critical. And it sounds like daily motivate and links can be had through Twitter. So what exactly do you think is left, Neoglitch? (Not a rhetorical question.)

The Middle Truth
You're welcome for the link. (Is there some reason you linked to yourself again?) Maybe you can do me the favour of discussing without making it a AJATT vs. others thing? The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :-)

Your articles:
Also, as I said earlier, please don't take my mentioning your lens as an endorsement. I think there are serious problems with the advice it contains. One big mistake is the idea that 100% language learning must be implicit learning. There's a lot of research indicating that a mix of implicit and explicit is better than either alone. Other methods (which also include exposure, AJATT didn't invent that) provide both.

I think your lens is too extreme, too black and white, inconsistent with the results of much research, and misrepresents other learning methods. It does describe and link useful resources, though. My take on it is that you are echoing Khatz without much personal knowledge or much experience, so I wonder how you justify being so adamant? Is it passion from your enjoyment of learning Japanese?

Khatz didn't invent self-study or use of native materials:
Like Jarvik, I've seen people achieve results similar to Khatzumoto's in ~2 years using various combinations of methods over the years I've been interested in Japanese learning. Typically each class would have one or two keeners. Some guys did it without classes. (And imagine, early on this was achieved without SRS or even a computer. Paper dictionaries. Searching words by looking up the first kanji by its official primitive and stroke # in a kanji dict.) Some of us attended Kumon in Japan on tiny chairs with little kiddies to get our kanji down. lol Some went the JLPT route. Everyone had opportunities for speaking (output isn't something to be afraid of, it's necessary.) Khatz didn't invent self-study. We were combining classes with RTK, simple paper Leitner card systems and exposure decades ago. Media was just way more limited. You guys are so lucky! Nobody required 24/7 immersion. I feel you need to widen your perspective a bit.

The key point is that Khatzu's achievement is not so special that people should think they need to follow his path. People have figured out their own paths before him. Take what's good for you and move one. That was always Khatz's advice. That is not Silverspoon.

There is no AJATT vs Classes:
There is no Great Divide (even though Khatzu would like you to think that). It has always been classes+exposure. It's a shame it gets such airtime as it might cause some to overlook a quality option. Quality of programs obviously varies.

@midnightsun

Setting aside your accusations of elitism which I think are unsupported by evidence in Thora's comments, you made generalizations about people like @resolve getting attacked as if there's a pattern of your characterization of vicious attacks on people who are selling products with integrity instead of con artists like Khatzumoto trying to exploit beginners, you dismissed the sharing of ideas and opinions on the forum and instead we must get a blog to for some reason compete with another blogger in some silly ego-centric top-down model of discourse, you instructed us to be silent in a snide way, you made generalizations about how awful American/UK/etc. universities are based condescendingly on your special inside knowledge, you made anecdotal references to friends who passed such and such test “using AJATT”, and insulted AJATT critics with choice words you edited out after my comment, before describing how you'd rather hang out with Khatzumoto.

My summary was accurate: generalizations, you people need to be silent, blogs rule, classes suck, khatzumoto is cool, i have a friend of a friend who got fluent... insult insult... - I got the order a bit wrong.

The irony is your self-portrayal at the onset of mixed feelings regarding the topic after some thoughtful consideration, as if you were going to write a balanced post on the topic rather than rant, champion Khatzumoto, and then insult us.

ya i'm not defending silverspoon i think it's silly too (not criminal... just silly). but 99% of the time classes are probably worse and more expensive. This thing at cornell sounds like it might have some merit however for it's immersive qualities.

I approve of this thread, I wonder why I was ignoring the title.

dtcamero Wrote:for learning ABOUT a language, or linguistics, college classes make a lot of sense... it's acquiring a body of knowledge like any other. But aquiring the language itself is a SKILL, like oil painting... and you're not gonna be anything other than an art historian until you jump in the water and figure out how to swim... (excuse my mixed metaphors here ;P)

foreign institutes do teach fairly effectively but i'd say the reason has more to do with nights out at jpnese bars (& possibly jgirlfriends) than grammar points from classwork.

I really don't know how I want to respond to this...I think really all you did is outline the difference between good classes and bad classes. The main difference is the interaction and feedback you get from the instructor. Yes, languages are a skill that need to be acquired rather than learned, and good teachers know this, and will design their classes accordingly. Classes should be a place where you can acquire new aspects of the language correctly, ie where you are taught instead of coming to your own potentially false conclusions about something, and where you can practice and get useful feedback and corrections that you wouldn't get in the wild.
"But you can't learn surrounded by a bunch of gaijin who don't talk right!" Bullshit, the Michel Thomas CDs include other "students" just because they'll make mistakes.

The most proficient people I know took classes. They were also the ones who put in the most effort both inside and out of class. Thinking about it now, there was almost an "active learning" and "passive learning" phase that they would go through. In class, doing homework, and doing their own study (which pretty much everyone did) they'd be in active study, where they'd purposely be learning -- through workbooks (kanzen master was popular), through homework, and in class. Then they'd go out and interact with real people, and just live their normal lives -- joining clubs, going to the bars, etc...That is what helped solidify what they had learned. Just like your brain works its magic to remember things when you're sleeping, your 'passive learning' stage seems to be when what you learned in your 'active' stage gets solidified.

I forgot what the point of my post was, but I know one thing: the people who seemed to progress the most, those who were the most proficient were the ones who actually put effort into their language learning, as opposed to those who just tried to learn 'by osmosis.'

By page 20 of this thread I'm going to be describing Khatzumoto as a murderous circus freak dealing the stolen cremains of stillborn infants to undead Nazi crackheads so they can snort them off developing world prostitutes' backsides.

('Tis better to be vile than vile esteemed.)

Thora Wrote:One big mistake is the idea that 100% language learning must be implicit learning. There's a lot of research indicating that a mix of implicit and explicit is better than either alone. Other methods (which also include exposure, AJATT didn't invent that) provide both.
...
There is no Great Divide (even though Khatzu would like you to think that). It has always been classes+exposure. It's a shame it gets such airtime as it might cause some to overlook a quality option. Quality of programs obviously varies.

I'm guessing implicit/explicit learning kind of matches up with the passive/active learning that I kind of came up with?


Whether it's classes+exposure or your-own-structured-learning+exposure, I've always been a proponent of having some sort of structure, at least in my own study. This is the reason I defend classes. The quality of them vary greatly (I've been lucky to be in mostly good ones so far), but just because it's a class doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

dtcamero Wrote:ya i'm not defending silverspoon i think it's silly too (not criminal... just silly). but 99% of the time classes are probably worse and more expensive. This thing at cornell sounds like it might have some merit however for it's immersive qualities.

As long as you're making up a number, why choose something like 99%? Exaggerations are not helpful. You could have chosen something that has a far better chance of corresponding with reality.

Also, classes have unexpected benefits because they come with certification. I've lived in Japan for three years with an easy well-paying job. Why? Because I went through college--where I double-majored in Asian Studies, meaning I got to take Japanese courses at no extra cost on top of my first major. I mean, I was going to go to college anyway, so that money was already spent.

Without that degree I never would have been able to live in Japan.

(Anyway, as I said in my last post, classes were the best and most effective part of my Japanese learning experience)

@Asriel

See also the division into meaning-focused and language-focused here: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf

ugh. is this thread still going?

re: the paying for library renewal membership thing, there are plenty of legal businesses that work on exactly this model. Visa application services is one that instantly springs to mind.

nest0r Wrote:@Asriel

See also the division into meaning-focused and language-focused here: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf

I really liked this. I think it makes a lot of sense, and I think a lot of those things are difficult to reproduce by oneself. Looking back, the classes that I considered "good" are the ones that more or less followed that model. The ones that I considered "bad" were the ones that was mainly language-focused, whereas the good ones were much more balanced. AJATT/input-only is way too meaning-focused input oriented -- I definitely think that there should always be a balance. Which is why classes shouldn't be dismissed just for being classes.

Neoglitch17 Wrote:

Omoishinji Wrote:$39? I know that people want to spend as less money as possible, but that isn't what language learning is about...

If a person is going to make a large investment they should take it seriously.

tokyostyle Wrote:This strange and misplaced rant makes me wonder if I'm the only one who signed up to SilverSpoon just because it was an easy way to pay Khatzu back for all of the help he has already provided me for free?

I do get my $2 a day out of it but the amount of money he's asking for is so small that it amuses me that someone would make a post that is nothing more than, "Whaaaa I can't afford it so no one should be able to either!"

Why is there no outrage that universities are charging three times what Khatzu is for massively inferior products?

Somebody give this guy a cookie!!! Tokyostyle, WHAT YOU SAID!!!

For the $39 Master Japanese guide you can get MUCH more useful and practical information on how to learn the language than by taking an outrageously expensive class, paying a tutor or buying freaking Rosetta Stone (more like "Rosqueta Stone"...). By the way, anybody interested in the guide can get a discount code for it by suscribing to John's newsletter :3

Learn Japanese - The Truth

$39? I already spent the time reviewing "Learn Japanese - The Truth," and there are things that I do disagree with.

I seriously doubt that paying $39 will offer more than learning Japanese in a class room. I do believe that it has some valuable information, but it isn't a substitute for concerted learning.

I am sorry, my comment isn't about what I want, but about something I am trying to stress. That is, to accept that it is the individuals choice in what how they learn. Also, to give advice within the best of your knowledge to assist them in their learning.

Thora Wrote:I think you need to reconsider how you justify SS. You repeated at least 5 times in one post that SSis for people who are too busy or lazy to research how to study. But then you end with the comment that they could solve that problem with the guide instead. So, they DON'T need SS for that. You need to find some other justification for SS. The exact timing of activities is not critical. And it sounds like daily motivate and links can be had through Twitter. So what exactly do you think is left, Neoglitch? (Not a rhetorical question.)

Nothing is left. At the end it's just a decision the learner makes. You want to take your time to do research and look up links, resources, media, etc? Then that's good, do that. That's what 98% of people would do anyways.

Most people don't need SS, but if you don't mind paying the $2/day and would find SS useful, then pay for it and take advantage of it. I don't see what is so wrong with that.

Thora Wrote:The Middle Truth
You're welcome for the link. (Is there some reason you linked to yourself again?) Maybe you can do me the favour of discussing without making it a AJATT vs. others thing? The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :-)

Your articles:
Also, as I said earlier, please don't take my mentioning your lens as an endorsement. I think there are serious problems with the advice it contains. One big mistake is the idea that 100% language learning must be implicit learning. There's a lot of research indicating that a mix of implicit and explicit is better than either alone. Other methods (which also include exposure, AJATT didn't invent that) provide both.

I think your lens is too extreme, too black and white, inconsistent with the results of much research, and misrepresents other learning methods. It does describe and link useful resources, though. My take on it is that you are echoing Khatz without much personal knowledge or much experience, so I wonder how you justify being so adamant? Is it passion from your enjoyment of learning Japanese?

Khatz didn't invent self-study or use of native materials:
Like Jarvik, I've seen people achieve results similar to Khatzumoto's in ~2 years using various combinations of methods over the years I've been interested in Japanese learning. Typically each class would have one or two keeners. Some guys did it without classes. (And imagine, early on this was achieved without SRS or even a computer. Paper dictionaries. Searching words by looking up the first kanji by its official primitive and stroke # in a kanji dict.) Some of us attended Kumon in Japan on tiny chairs with little kiddies to get our kanji down. lol Some went the JLPT route. Everyone had opportunities for speaking (output isn't something to be afraid of, it's necessary.) Khatz didn't invent self-study. We were combining classes with RTK, simple paper Leitner card systems and exposure decades ago. Media was just way more limited. You guys are so lucky! Nobody required 24/7 immersion. I feel you need to widen your perspective a bit.

The key point is that Khatzu's achievement is not so special that people should think they need to follow his path. People have figured out their own paths before him. Take what's good for you and move one. That was always Khatz's advice. That is not Silverspoon.

There is no AJATT vs Classes:
There is no Great Divide (even though Khatzu would like you to think that). It has always been classes+exposure. It's a shame it gets such airtime as it might cause some to overlook a quality option. Quality of programs obviously varies.

"please don't take my mentioning your lens as an endorsement"
Very well

"Is there some reason you linked to yourself again?"
You know why

"One big mistake is the idea that 100% language learning must be implicit learning."

In the lens, for learning the kana and kanji I recommend using the books "Japanese Hiragana & Katakana For Beginners" and of course "Remembering The Kanji" respectively. I also suggest using this site and/or Anki for reviewing the characters. Such process is not of implicit learning.

Another process of direct learning that I mention briefly is learning the readings of kanji (as well as vocabulary and grammar) using full Japanese sentences, but I do not expand on those concepts. That is why I link to the Master Japanese guide and AJATT, so that people interested on how to do that go and check out those resources.

I had to look up for the word "adamant"... and I didn't like what I found, lol

Thora, if you read the module with the videos of "The 7 Secrets Of Successful Language Learning - By Steve Kaufmann" you will see that I recommend the reader to:
- Try out different methods.
- Ditch aspects of them that they don't enjoy or don't give them results.
- Embrace the ones that gives them the best results and also enjoy following the most.
In short, I suggest they don't fall in "language learning dogma". And that holds true for the information in the lens itself.

"The Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. :-)"

Of course it is. There is no ultimate truth out there. Not my lens, not AJATT, not fluentin3months, not Master Japanese... the truth ultimately depends on the learner, who takes different ideas and methodologies from different resources and combine them in a big method that actually works for HIM/HER. I titled the lens "The Truth" to reflect the fact that contrary to popular belief language learning doesn't have to be a painful grind, that it can be fun, and that there are much better methods and tools out there for learning Japanese... because let's face it, the current model of formal language education DOES suck.

"Khatz didn't invent self-study or use of native materials"

Nah... for real?

Media was a lot more limited in that time, yet language learning WAS possible. I know. Just ask Steve Kaufmann

"Take what's good for you and move one. That was always Khatz's advice. That is not Silverspoon."

If you think a service like SS would be good for your situation, use it. If not, don't. Take what's good for you and move on.

And finally, I do maintain my position that classes are terribly ineffective, because I know from experience. I studied English all my life at school and 4 1/2 years at an English institute and I didn't achieve fluency because of them. They provided me with a useful base for when I went to the U.S. as an exchange student, but years of studying did NOT give me full fluency and understanding in English, far from it.

As for Japanese I took classes for 2 1/2 years at University. Our sensei was an awesome guy and classes with him were fun, but we rarely had contact with any real Japanese, we only learned (supposedly) 160 kanji after all those years, had to drill them by hand several times (not fun), and well... we all ended up knowing no real Japanese. It was fun, but ineffective.

So... yeah, that's it. "The truth" IS in a variety of methods, and depends on each particular learner. I know of NO person that has come out fluent from taking classes, but... as Benny from fluentin3months says, "Any method, applied with enough passion, can be successful."

Now, can we please as a forum and a community, MOVE ON?? xD