So I've finally got my hands on some real native material, I've purchased a manga called negima and am now looking for some basic grammar help, i understand ~desu and ~masu but what is ~da? All in all can anyone recommend me some good recourse's for basic grammar (preferably free one's :3)

p.s. i've looked a tae kim's guide before and didnt really like it much

Any idea's would be well received,

Now back to the manga...............

First, learn to spell "grammar" correctly.

Let's hope my Japanese is better then my English...

Basics of grammar.

What is it that you don't like about Tae Kim's guide? I personally don't use any grammar guides or textbooks, but I don't see how a free resource could be much better than that. It's a step by step guide that you can follow in any way you wish with example sentences and simple but effective explanations. What more do you want exactly? There's even some ready for use Anki deck made of it, or was that just the sentences?

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Basics of grammar.

What is it that you don't like about Tae Kim's guide? I personally don't use any grammar guides or textbooks, but I don't see how a free resource could be much better than that. It's a step by step guide that you can follow in any way you wish with example sentences and simple but effective explanations. What more do you want exactly? There's even some ready for use Anki deck made of it, or was that just the sentences?

Yeah... unless you tell us why you don't like a fairly high-quality resource like Tae Kim, i can't imagine what else to recommend.

You might try http://www.imabijapaneselearningcenter.com/ ... I would personally recommend Tae Kim's Guide and a copy of A Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar, however, if you don't like Tae Kim's Guide and won't spend money...

Well, the author of the above site has great ambitions that have been discussed in his thread in these forums. It would be interesting to see how much a beginner can actually learn from his site. Keep us posted if you do use the site.

zigmonty Wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Basics of grammar.

What is it that you don't like about Tae Kim's guide? I personally don't use any grammar guides or textbooks, but I don't see how a free resource could be much better than that. It's a step by step guide that you can follow in any way you wish with example sentences and simple but effective explanations. What more do you want exactly? There's even some ready for use Anki deck made of it, or was that just the sentences?

Yeah... unless you tell us why you don't like a fairly high-quality resource like Tae Kim, i can't imagine what else to recommend.

well, last time i looked at tae kim's guide (which was a long time ago) everything seemed boring, the kind of boring that high school french was, maybe im going to have to suck it up and accept the fact that grammar <- (i wont forget this in a long time) is boring?

chamcham Wrote:First, learn to spell "grammar" correctly.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Basics of grammar

I'm pretty sure he was just being facetious guys.

/unhelpful

I don't think that you have to accept grammar being boring. Tae Kim is definitely a little dry, and I'm happier with something like Genki that puts more emphasis on slightly naturalistic dialogues, but even so, grammar only has to be as boring as you let it be. If you just say "Oh, okay, です is used for a state of being," that's going to be boring. What if you try to describe states of being for ten things in your room? 自転車は古いです。 コップは青いです。はこは白いです。You don't need a lot of vocabulary to start copying simple sentence patterns...

You don't necessarily want to go to far with this lest you start making up completely wrong sentences, but any way of engaging with the material and not just reading over it is going to make it both more interesting and more memorable.

I've only taken a look at some pages from TK's guide quite some time ago as well, but I got the impression that the explanations are quite sensible, like they describe things in a way they're seen from a Japanese person's perspective.

I find grammar rules to be mostly plain boring no matter what though, and I'm happy that I found and got motivated by things like AJATT and people like Stephen Krashen and Steve Kaufmann's ideas before my own high school French would have killed any motivation for language learning. I definitely recommend that you read into input based learning if you haven't, but for now since you don't even know what the -da ending stands for (basically put, a shortened casual and less formal form of desu), I'd say that you can benefit from at least reading through a simple guide like TK's.

Good luck, and keep on with the native material early on!

You could try Japanese the Manga Way. It covers basic Japanese grammar using examples from actual manga.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:but for now since you don't even know what the -da ending stands for (basically put, a shortened casual and less formal form of desu), I'd say that you can benefit from at least reading through a simple guide like TK's.

You've gotta watch overly simplified explanations such as this.

きょう　は　さむい　です。 is grammatical
きょう　は　さむい　だ。 is not.

zigmonty Wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:but for now since you don't even know what the -da ending stands for (basically put, a shortened casual and less formal form of desu), I'd say that you can benefit from at least reading through a simple guide like TK's.

You've gotta watch overly simplified explanations such as this.

きょう　は　さむい　です。 is grammatical
きょう　は　さむい　だ。 is not.

Yeah, thankfully the real grammar explanations aren't that careless :p
You'd need to stick in a さむい　の だ

battlehymnz Wrote:You could try Japanese the Manga Way. It covers basic Japanese grammar using examples from actual manga.

Most people recommend this and it's fun, so you should do this to grab your interest in grammar.

ta12121 Wrote:

battlehymnz Wrote:You could try Japanese the Manga Way. It covers basic Japanese grammar using examples from actual manga.

Most people recommend this and it's fun, so you should do this to grab your interest in grammar.

The only thing JtMW lacks is a large amount of example sentences, which is why I switched to DOxJG. If you want something boring I'd recommend those, but to me it doesn't seem boring at all. But it has been established that I'm a bit of a nutcase so.

nohika Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:

battlehymnz Wrote:You could try Japanese the Manga Way. It covers basic Japanese grammar using examples from actual manga.

Most people recommend this and it's fun, so you should do this to grab your interest in grammar.

The only thing JtMW lacks is a large amount of example sentences, which is why I switched to DOxJG. If you want something boring I'd recommend those, but to me it doesn't seem boring at all. But it has been established that I'm a bit of a nutcase so.

There is no reason why you can't have a little bit of both. Better to have a balance of everything than focus on one thing (in this case: grammar sentences,example sentences,etc).

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:You'd need to stick in a さむい　の だ

That would change the meaning, though. It's just 寒い

Would you mind explaining how Tae Kim's approach to grammar is more from a Japanese person's perspective (or giving some egs)?

@thejoshlord,

Given your interest in manga, that seems like a good fit. Reading about the same topic in a few different sources can really help too. It fills gaps and paying attention to how explanations differ is another way to keep your brain active. Variety might help keep it interesting for you.

Someone posted Vizualizing Japanese grammar which appears to have animations of about 70 grammar points. Yasuko's Nihongo House is a beginners grammar site by a retired Japanese professor with about 60 lessons. There are other similar sites if you poke around the net. Check out the resources section here.

There's also a pdf grammar textbook available online written by a Japanese learner "A logical Japanese grammar". iirc, it's a more in depth look at a several grammar topics (based more on Japanese school grammar and includes more jargon). I think.

A couple grammar books have been recommended which seem to do a great job conveying quality information without all the linguistics jargon. I think one was "Making Sense of Japanese".

I think it's fair to warn that some of the early lessons on the imabi site aren't great for beginners. The lessons on が　and は, in particular, would only confuse learners, imo, but the concepts are wrong, the explanations are poorly done, and the examples aren't useful. There's useful info on the site, just don't rely on it's accuracy. Supplement it with better explanations and examples from other sources.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Open a Japanese dictionary and let's see what it gives you. I have done incredible edits to the beginning lessons, and you would be very surprised. Everything is accurate and I have verified everything to be factually accurate.

In fact, here is a dictionary entry about ga in Japanese.

〔一〕　【格助】　《体言や体言相当の句に付いて》

①述部を補う、最も主要な物事を表す（すなわち、文法的に主語となることを表す）。物事の内容は述部の意味により次のような種類に分かれる。

ァ　《下に動作・作用を表す表現を伴って》その動作・作用の担い手を表す。
ィ　《下に感情や感覚を表す表現を伴って》その感覚や感情の感じ手を表す。
ゥ　《下に物事の発生を表す動詞を伴って》その動作・作用によって生じるものを表す。
ェ　《下に存在や所有などを表す表現を伴って》存在するものを表す。
ォ　《下に属性を現す表現を伴って》その性情を帯びているものを表す。
ヵ　《下に受身や使役の表現を伴って》動作・作用の担い手に替えて主語に据えた、動作の受け手や使役者を表す。
ｷ　述部の内容に当てはまるものをある範囲内で探し出して、それと指し示す。
ｸ　《下に感情や感覚を表す表現を伴って》感情や感覚を引き起こすきっかけとなるものを表す。
ヶ　《下に知覚を表す動詞を伴って》知覚した対象や知覚をもたらす部位を表す。
ｺ　《下に可能を現す表現を伴って》可能であるものの内容や機能を表す。
ｻ　《他動詞＋希望の助動詞「たい」、他動詞＋難易や傾向を表す「やすい」「がたい」「にくい」「づらい」などの形で、他動詞の動作・作用の対象を術語全体の主語としてとらえて》欲求の対象や属性の持ち主であることを表す。

②文語的な連体修飾語を作る。
ァ　《名詞に付いて》所有や所属を表す。
ィ　《動詞連体形と「ごとし」「まま」「ため」「ゆえ」などの間に入って》語調を整える。

③　《「AがA」の形で》その語を強める。
ァ　《「今が今」の形で》まさに今。
ィ　《数量を表す表現の間に入って、副詞的に》その全てがそろって。
ゥ　《多く、下に断定の助動詞「だ」を伴って》それが容易に推測される特定の内容に当てはまることを示唆する。
ェ　《不定の意を表す語の間に入って、「AがAでも［だか・やら］」などの形で》個々についての判別がつかず、全てが同じ状況であることを表す。

〔二〕【接助】
①前置きを示す。
ァ　補足的説明を表す。
ィ　自分の立場や心情、また、自分が推測した相手の立場や心情を表す。
ゥ　話題の前提となる物事を示す。

②　対比的な関係にある二つの事柄を結び付ける。
③　関連しそうな二つの事柄を結び付け。後件がより核心的であることを表す。
④　先に述べた事柄に対して、その唐突さを何らかの説明で軽減する気持ちで新しい話題を提示する。
⑤　《「・・・（よ）う－」の形で》前件に拘束されないで、後件が成立する意を表す（逆接の仮定条件）。

〔三〕【終助】
①状態や心情などを言いさして、自分の考えをほのめかす。
ァ　心情を示して、実現を望む意をほのめかす。
ィ　事情を示して、拒絶の意をほのめかす。
ゥ　現状への関わりや認識などを示して、現状が期待通りでない意をほのめかす。
ェ　未実現の事柄を示して、至らない点を悔いる意をほのめかす。
ォ　相手の立場を示して、自分は同意できない意をほのめかす。

②状況を示し。相手に反応を求める。

③《「・・・（よ）う－」の形で》相手の過ちに対して、高圧的に非難して同意を求める。

④恨みをこめてののしる意を表す。

I used to discuss or direct all of this in that lesson, and it's exactly what you remember and what are criticizing. All of these points can be implied through example, and all the subpoints are covered in the main explanation. So, I have taken that approach. There are quite a few usages that are specifically highlighted and linked to somewhere else.

I am very tempted to go back and make these subpoints with the examples.

I've also been adding pictures and making examples follow directly after points. I'm slowly trying to implement this throughout to make it visually appealing.

ta12121 Wrote:

nohika Wrote:

ta12121 Wrote:Most people recommend this and it's fun, so you should do this to grab your interest in grammar.

The only thing JtMW lacks is a large amount of example sentences, which is why I switched to DOxJG. If you want something boring I'd recommend those, but to me it doesn't seem boring at all. But it has been established that I'm a bit of a nutcase so.

There is no reason why you can't have a little bit of both. Better to have a balance of everything than focus on one thing (in this case: grammar sentences,example sentences,etc).

I definitely agree. Unfortunately, I don't see how someone who finds Tae Kim boring would even go near the DOxJG series.

Wow, seems like a lot of conversations crossing each other just fired off in this thread.

Thora Wrote:

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:You'd need to stick in a さむい　の だ

That would change the meaning, though. It's just 寒い

How much does the meaning change? All I understood was that it had a more sort of emphasis than just 寒いです, for example as if you just noticed it was cold and was proclaiming it out of being surprised or something. It's still pretty much a statement saying that it's cold, isn't it?

Thora Wrote:Would you mind explaining how Tae Kim's approach to grammar is more from a Japanese person's perspective (or giving some egs)?

I haven't even really used it, it was just the impression I got from checking out a few articles a long time ago.

Generally we don't explain things about our native languages with grammatical terms, we use examples and scenarios, and we might compare phrases and stuff. I felt like TK's guide was a bit like that.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:How much does the meaning change? All I understood was that it had a more sort of emphasis than just 寒いです, for example as if you just noticed it was cold and was proclaiming it out of being surprised or something. It's still pretty much a statement saying that it's cold, isn't it?.

From what I understand it gives the sentence an explaining tone. Something like "as a matter of fact, it is cold".

Yes I was thinking of something like that. Rather than just "It's cold", it seems to be kind of "Hey, it's cold" or "It's actually cold". I suck at explaining.

TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:Yes I was thinking of something like that. Rather than just "It's cold", it seems to be kind of "Hey, it's cold" or "It's actually cold". I suck at explaining.

But that's not merely the informal equivalent of 寒いです. Replacing です with んだ may give you a grammatical sentence, but you've changed more than the politeness by doing it. It's better than 寒いだ, but still not right. です and だ simply aren't complete stand ins for each other.

Actually, です→んだ isn't even a general rule for making a grammatically valid sentence. It fails for な-adjectives and nouns. 綺麗です→綺麗なんだ？ I think i'd prefer 綺麗だ。Unless the rule is "just plain だ for な-adjectives and nouns but んだ for い-adjectives"? In which case it's no less complicated than "don't put a だ after い-adjectives" as Thora said.

Imho, one of the biggest mistakes beginner textbooks make is teaching です／ます first and then just handwaving the relationship to plain form. です／ます has a lot of advantages to a beginner: it's the most important politeness level for a non-native speaker to know and it's more regular in conjugation than plain form. It is, however, not the order natives learn their language in and leads to confused notions like that plain form is more advanced japanese... bewildering natives when you can't understand simple grammar that a 5 year old can.

It changes the meaning enough that if it was a cold day, and you wanted to just comment to your friend that it was cold, 寒いのだ would be incorrect. (寒いね would be correct)

But, let's say you were walking from the train station to a restaurant with your friend, and you commented something like "Hey, you're walking awfully fast." Your friend could answer 寒いんだ！(ん＝ casual の）. Why? Because your friend is giving an explanation as to why he's walking so fast--"Well, it's cold!".

zigmonty Wrote:綺麗です→綺麗なんだ？ I think i'd prefer 綺麗だ。

Haha, what exactly do you mean by prefer? There are situations where きれいなんだ is appropriate, and situations where きれいだ is. It's not about preference. (Actually, there are also situations where just きれい is appropriate. It sounds weird if you actually say だ after every な-adjectival or nominal sentence).

If you mean that きれいなんだ is not the equivalent of きれいです, then yes, that's true. きれいなんだ is the casual equivalent of きれいなんです. (I think this is what you mean, just that 'prefer' was a strange word choice)

Tzadeck Wrote:

zigmonty Wrote:綺麗です→綺麗なんだ？ I think i'd prefer 綺麗だ。

Haha, what exactly do you mean by prefer? There are situations where きれいなんだ is appropriate, and situations where きれいだ is. It's not about preference. (Actually, there are also situations where just きれい is appropriate. It sounds weird if you actually say だ after every な-adjectival or nominal sentence).

If you mean that きれいなんだ is not the equivalent of きれいです, then yes, that's true. きれいなんだ is the casual equivalent of きれいなんです. (I think this is what you mean, just that 'prefer' was a strange word choice)

Yes, that's what i meant. If i were searching for an equivalent to きれいです, きれいなんだ would be a strange choice. Now if i were explaining why i liked a particular girl...