Am I the only one who is annoyed by the christian imagery used in some of Heissig's stories?

I know it's few and far between but couldn't Heissig have been a bit more considerate in realising not everyone is a christian.

Hope I don't offend anyone with this thread just my viewpoint.

I understood Heisig's method to be to use images/stories that are vivid to oneself. If they happen to come from a religious background, then so be it.

Anyway, if Heisig's stories aren't your cup of tea, have a kanji coffee instead. Plenty to choose from here

I'm not exactly annoyed by it, although I do agree that it's occasionally difficult to relate to such stories. Let's not forget that these are Heisig's own stories, and he, I'd assume, is a Christian.

The stories you make up yourself are generally more memorable, anyway, so if the Christianity-themed ones don't stick, use something else.

I wasn't at all offended by the references to Christianity, despite not sharing the faith. I was actually highly amused by Heisig's casual references to obscure figures such as the Prophet Jeremiah and St Boniface. Ironically this made it easier to remember them.
The good Professor is after all, a religious scholar and his personality comes through quite strongly in some of the stories. Now, as for that Mulberry tree story . . .

Ah I forgot he was a philosopher of religion, thats obviously where it comes from.

When it's 1 am and you have 10 more kanji to learn for the day, you're not going to care as long as the stories work. I'm more annoyed at some of the very abstract stories he comes up with that are almost impossible visualize.

sheetz Wrote:When it's 1 am and you have 10 more kanji to learn for the day, you're not going to care as long as the stories work. I'm more annoyed at some of the very abstract stories he comes up with that are almost impossible visualize.

Your right, some (most for me) have a better alternative story here. Has he revised any of the stories he uses since rtk was first published? Some of them could really use a change, he could find perfect examples here

I personaly like the "refrences to christianity". For example, that made "judas tree" quite an easy piece of cake. In the west christianity has influenced for so long a time that you don't have to explain who Judas is and imagining Judas hanging himself with the ivy is quite a lively (or dead..) image. Why get annoyed at the guy when he's using images that everyone knows just because it's christian?!

I don't mind if someone gives me a story with Sidhartha Gautama in it. I might not get all the nuances thought..

Or the dragon images just because the dragon is the devil.

Whatever works is good enough to use!

Any way..

Cheers!

If he had picked some other religion that you don't believe in, would it have still bothered you?

The Christian stories didn't bother me, and it wouldn't have bothered me if he went off on a story about Buddhism either. He's sharing the story that worked for him and you are free to change it to whatever story is most vivid to you.

The 桂 story is a good example. I wouldn't want to try a story for that not involving Christianity when the one he gave works so well. But if that one doesn't work for you, or you don't like it, make your own.

First post here, just couldn't resist.

It's not like he only used Christianity, he mentioned Buddhism, some mythical stories and legends and so many other things, plus I don't think you have to be a Christian to know the stories he used. Until I saw this thread, I didn't really assume that Heisig is Christian.

Plus there's tons of stories here that you can use, be creative. Use what works for you.

I don't think the problem is that he uses Christian storys.

It's that not everyone has a christian background and the stories are not clear to everyone.

Did Judas hang himself? I don't know. Someone says this is something that everyone knows; I do not. I don't know Christianity much. (Though, in credit of the Judas example, I know who Judas is and that story wasn't hard to visualize)

So, it's not really an issue of being offended, it's just that he uses stories that are hard for some people to relate to.

sutebun Wrote:Did Judas hang himself? I don't know. Someone says this is something that everyone knows; I do not. I don't know Christianity much. (Though, in credit of the Judas example, I know who Judas is and that story wasn't hard to visualize)

After betraying Jesus, Judas felt ashamed of what he had done and committed suicide by hanging himself on a tree. I don't think it's expected that everyone knows this. (Did someone say that? I missed it...) But if you do know it, it makes it very easy to remember the kanji. Actually, the name kinda comes from that story....

wikipedia Wrote:This small, sparsely branched tree is said to be the one from which Judas Iscariot hanged himself after betraying Christ, but the name may derive from "Judea's tree", after the region encompassing Israel and Palestine where the tree is commonplace.

There were some stories of his that used references that I didn't get. But they didn't offend me. I looked them up and if it still wasn't clear, I just made another story.

Many people are exposed to extensive religious imagery as childred, so they have deep memories associated with them, which makes for memorable images. I have posted a number of stories that I find memorable due to my Jewish background, such as 1090 (I give both a Jewish, and Christian version here),1548, 1101, and several others I don't recall at the moment. I also use others' religious stories, such as matticus' for 1089, jmadsen for 1124, and onsen_monkey for 1851 (even though I'm not Christian).

I don't expect everyone to find them as useful as I do, but have no idea what there is to be offended about (I don't mock anyone's religion in them). If you don't like them, don't use them, but I think they are good to post for the many people who have deep associations to religious traditions.

[ファブリス]

sutebun Wrote:It's that not everyone has a christian background and the stories are not clear to everyone.

But he can't hit the mark everytime, and whichever stories he would use I'm sure there would be someone who wouldn't have a clue what he is referring to.

As for the stories with religious background, you can change the story, but you can also look into it. I did that everytime, I don't know why people first think of changing the story? After all, religion is a huge part of our history.

I looked up all Heisig's references on Google and learnt a few things along the way. Interestingly, even if it seems complicated at first, if you read a bunch of background on the story (as in the "sulfur", and "nitrate" kanjis, or the "reform" kanji), you end up remembering it easily.

This reminds me of when I was a kid. Here in Belgium you have to choose between "moral" and "religion" for your children; "moral" is the course for atheists (another religion !).

My adoptive parents didn't really believe in god or anything, but they sent me to religion "because they teach you to be nice" or something of that affect.

As it turns out, as a kid, I loved it, because we heard stories and stories and stories!

Nobody ever asked me to believe them, and I don't consider myself a christian, still I remember reading a bit of the Bible sometimes purely for my enjoyment, and later as an adolescent when I chose myself the course I chose "religion" again because the "moral" course was just so incredibly boring.

Turns out once again my "religion" teacher was a great guy, who actually cared about his class and whatever wisdom he could pass on to his students.

This to say, a story is a story..

Personally I don't see too much of a problem with the religious-themed stories Heisig uses. Some of them do form a very vivid image if you already know about the background, and you can easily learn the kanji even if you don't know what the actual keyword by itself means (like Japanese Judas-tree!). And for those stories you don't understand the reasoning for, look it up or make a stronger story based on what sticks in your head.

Whenever I am able to, I use stories that derive from what I remember from my childhood or from what my personal experiences and interests are, as they tend to have made the deepest impression on me and I am more likely to easily remember those stories. Truth be told, Heisig wrote RTK for a mainly Westernized audience (as he says in the preface and introductions), and I'd guess that *most* (not all, mind you) of those people live in the U.S., which is about 90% Christian (at least nominally so). Like ファブリス said, you can't be 100% on target 100% of the time, but you can try by using stories that the majority of your readers will understand a majority of the time, and I think Heisig did a pretty good job of that. I do think perhaps in the next revision that some stories should be updated, however.

meolox Wrote:Am I the only one who is annoyed by the christian imagery used in some of Heissig's stories?

I know it's few and far between but couldn't Heissig have been a bit more considerate in realising not everyone is a christian.

Am I the only one annoyed by the spelling of Heisig with a double "s"?

I feel a bit like Fabrice, I liked the opportunity to learn something new when the references (or the keyword!) sent me to wikipedia to learn. I don't know about anyone else but I could spend days reading Jewish folklore. It falls in the same category as Greek mythology, some very interesting stories waiting to be discovered.

I am curious to know if stories from any other religion are as offensive to you as Christian ones. Anyway, if it does offend isn't that a good thing?

James W. Heisig Wrote:The aim is to shock the mind?s eye, to disgust it, to enchant it, to tease it, or to entertain it in any way possible so as to brand it with an image intimately associated with the key word.

I'm more annoyed by several of the religion themed stories which use rather obscure stories from the bible. Most people's knowledge of christianity (christian or not) is limited to genesis, noah's ark and jesus' birth & death. There are of course some other basic stories that many may know if they have been to church somewhat regularly, but Heisig used some characters I've never even heard of despite going to a catholic school. Maybe they are emphasized more in certain sects...

disclaimer: despite (or maybe because of) going to a catholic school, I am an atheist

Jarvik7 Wrote:There are of course some other basic stories that many may know if they have been to church somewhat regularly, but Heisig used some characters I've never even heard of despite going to a catholic school.

I'm not Catholic, but quite of a few of his "Christian" stories didn't register at all on my radar. On the subject of the Judas tree: isn't that why it's called a freakin' Judas tree? At least, in English, obviously.

I had issues with a good few of Heisig's stories: if you don't like them, then don't use them.

They didn't irriate me, just that I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. I also had no idea what "the little train that can" is wither.

Since I had never heard of the Judas-tree before RTK, I'll just call it by its other non scientific name - the European Redbud That said, the association with Judas did make it more memorable. I pictured a diseased "evil/spooky" tree wrapped up in vines. Judas, however, may not be the source of the name for the tree... Looks like some folk etymology at work:

History:
There is a longstanding myth that Judas Iscariot hanged himself from a tree of this species. This belief is related to the common name "Judas Tree" which is possibly a corrupted derivation from the French common name, Arbre de Jud?e meaning tree of Judea, referring to a region where the tree occurs.

"The Little Train That Could" is a fairly well known children's story, at least in North America among people my age (and older?). I don't know what stories kids are told nowdays.

I didn't have a clue, what the little train was either.. Or that stocks might be called "blue chip"!


How come he didn't realize that not everyone is a north american! =D

Okay.. That was a little provo.. Sorry..

I also had no idea what "The little train that can" is or what "blue chip" meant, we need localised versions, ok maybe not.

I know all about the little train that could. Man, I feel sorry for all you that never heard that story

Localised versions!!! \o/

For all those having trouble with the little train:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_...That_Could