Thanks to anki I have around 4000 words on my vocab (maybe more, maybe less, my vocab cards have more than one new word). But, when I want to use the words I can't remember them!

What can I do to improve this?

This is one of the reasons why I don't have such an interest in anki anymore.

Read a whole lot, a whole whole LOT and start using new words you read/talk/speak about. Try to remember them when you need them and write messages, blogposts or write them to your friends.

CarolinaCG Wrote:Thanks to anki I have around 4000 words on my vocab (maybe more, maybe less, my vocab cards have more than one new word). But, when I want to use the words I can't remember them!
What can I do to improve this?

Can't tell if what I'm saying here is linguistically/scientifically profen/correct, but I think humans do have passive and active vocabulary knowledge, i.e. passive vocabs, you would know what they mean when you hear and read them (but you cannot use them ad hoc) and active vocabs. The latter is always smaller in amount, regardless what language your mother tongue is.

With Anki learners would boost their passive vocabulary knowledge till infinity and in order to get use out of them one can do 2 things in my opinion:

a) Inverse the deck structure: Eng -> Jap. I know, this is pain in the butt, just think of how many words you do know for "quiet/tranquil/calm/mild/subdued etc." and "connection"! There are lots of synonyms you all have to know (if you're really into it!).
b) Like jettyke said: read a lot, listen a lot. I also do get the hang slowly that only a few words get used commonly/always and some, f.e., synonym wouldn't get used in common language, but perhaps rather in written.

I guess I will go for a) when I finished CORE and start with core10k in August (hopefully).

Tori-kun is spot on with active and passive vocabulary. When you use flash cards you're training passive vocabulary; you're creating a direct connection between seeing the word, and the word's meaning, in your brain. And while there is some carryover from passive to active (it is easier to make words a part of your active vocabulary if they're already strongly embedded in your passive vocabulary) to truly be able to use something requires, well, using it

In simplest terms the brain is what the brain does. One can study all the music theory and techniques in the world, but if they don't actually sit down and put their fingers to the keys of a piano they're not going to be able to play aforementioned piano. Recognition of vocabulary and usage of vocabulary are incredibly different skill sets. This is why many of us might be able to read a prize-winning novel, but not be even remotely close to wielding that level of prose ourselves.

Generic analogies aside, if you want to be able to use words and conjure them on the spot, then you need to be actively using those words, just like in your mother tongue. Luckily the solution is simple: Speak. Write. Rinse and repeat. The medium doesn't really matter that much, so long as you're training those skills. Write letters in Japanese, short stories, simple paragraph essays, dialogues, e-mails to penpals, comment in Japanese on Facebook. Talk to penpals on Skype, or to people in person, or think in Japanese so you're actively using vocabulary internally. The method doesn't really matter, just pick something that sounds fun and you have interest in and keep at it. It takes years of constant use to make thousands of words part of your active vocabulary. Just gotta chip away at the mountain day by day. It's a use it or lose it scenario

(Just as a note. Perhaps recording your own voice/speech while standing in front of a mirror and thinking aloud in Japanese about what you want to do this day/next day, or what you did and experienced. I actually did that and found that pretty interesting. Using a lot of 'ateji' like あのー、えっと、さー and so forth, gave my brain a bit of 'time' formulating the right sentence - grammatically - and using the right words, I was literally searching for in the browser of my anki deck in my brain, internally. May sound stupid and ridiculous to you but it's fun. Just try it )

Get a language partner.

Something I'm interested in with regards to going from Anki to production is a card maturity reminder plugin (I explain a bit more here, including references to comprehensible output): http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6664

Picking up or more importantly, reinforcing, words through reading/etc. is essential but the former is also very slow, so current machinations to integrate receptive vocabulary developed through incidental exposure and the more active explicit information you get with Anki aside, I think having a means to know when a card (its information) is ripe for the output plucking, so to speak, could be very useful.

You should check out this paper also: The Four Strands

Abstract: The activities in a language course can be classified into the four strands of meaning-focused input, meaning-focused output, language-focused learning and fluency development. In a well designed course there should be an even balance of these strands with roughly equal amounts of time given to each strand. The research
evidence for the strands draws on the input hypothesis and learning from extensive
reading, the output hypothesis, research on form-focused instruction, and the
development of speaking and reading fluency. The paper concludes with 10 princi-
ples based largely on the four strands. The strands framework and the principles
provide a basis for managing innovation in language courses.

(It's an accessible paper.)

Edit: Something else to consider is, when you're studying a word, whatever indicator of its meaning you're reading to learn the word, really take the time to think about its meaning and how you'd use it situationally/conceptually. That sounds obvious but I think it's easy to get in the trap of just thinking about the word in a superficial one to one fashion, such as 文脈　= context.

Edit 2: More on comprehensible output: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...5#pid92735

What I was referring to, re: maturity/output, was using those words for production practice however you like (I think microblogs are a good start, but also genre-based writing tasks and such: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid141328).

Tori-kun Wrote:a) Inverse the deck structure: Eng -> Jap. I know, this is pain in the butt, just think of how many words you do know for "quiet/tranquil/calm/mild/subdued etc." and "connection"! There are lots of synonyms you all have to know (if you're really into it!).

This didn't really work for me, but I am finding cloze deletion to be very helpful because it makes you think in the target language.

Reading and listening a lot is good, because the more common words will be said a lot, and you get used to it. However, if you're thinking of a more specific word that isn't common, it's not as helpful.

I agree with Aijin, write and speak and get feedback.

It also helps to learn how to speak around what you want to say... like in the Simpsons!

Quote:Homer: Marge, where's that... metal deely... you use to... dig... food...
Marge: You mean, a spoon?
Homer: Yeah, yeah!

While I don't disagree that forcing production will help, I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary. The AJATT guys claims enough input will eventually lead to you being able to express yourself as well and I can agree for the most part. I'm guessing most people on here are native English speakers and have therefore probably never experienced learning a foreign language to fluency. I for example, have seldom come into situations where I need to express myself in English, but I'm able to because I've had such a large amount of exposure over the years. I've never had a blog in English, I never talked to natives via voice chat or anything but I dare say that if I were to move to an English speaking country I would manage just fine (similar to how the AJATT guy was able to be fluent before even going to Japan). I think with time you will be able to express yourself just fine if you just immerse yourself via reading/listening.

edit: I looked up the article: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ore-output

Same experience as Kuma01, looking back i was exposed so much to english. While growing up all the movies that i saw were in english, because unlike most countries, in Portugal they use subtitles instead of dubbing, which im very grateful and appreciate it. Our neighbors, the Spanish, are famous for sucking at english, and i think the dubbing and changing all the media, names etc to their language is the main cause of it.
So yeah, i think as long as you are exposed to it, it will hardwire and make sense in your brain after a while, without much conscious effort. I remember learning the word lettuce because i saw it a game i was playing XD.

Both Kuma and ueshiba come under the assumption of 100% input and 0% output. I mean, not even a single attempt of speaking or writing in English?

For most of us learning Japanese as our second language, it would be a risk to take a natural 100% input, 0% output approach which could take years to actually show any actual results(naturally) vs. a trained approach. Khatzumoto did have native Japanese friends that he talked to and had them correct his mistakes. Also, we've never actually saw his speaking abilities after 18 months. Apparently, it was only after a couple of years that he released a video of himself speaking.

I think we are finally chipping away at the myth of SRS vocabulary learned out of context as ideal for acquiring language skills

Kuma01 Wrote:While I don't disagree that forcing production will help, I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary. The AJATT guys claims enough input will eventually lead to you being able to express yourself as well and I can agree for the most part. I'm guessing most people on here are native English speakers and have therefore probably never experienced learning a foreign language to fluency. I for example, have seldom come into situations where I need to express myself in English, but I'm able to because I've had such a large amount of exposure over the years. I've never had a blog in English, I never talked to natives via voice chat or anything but I dare say that if I were to move to an English speaking country I would manage just fine (similar to how the AJATT guy was able to be fluent before even going to Japan). I think with time you will be able to express yourself just fine if you just immerse yourself via reading/listening.

edit: I looked up the article: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ore-output

Isn't output practised in school English lessons in Europe?

bodhisamaya Wrote:I think we are finally chipping away at the myth of SRS vocabulary learned out of context as ideal for acquiring language skills

Anyone with any sense knows there is no one ideal for acquiring language skills.

Kuma01 Wrote:While I don't disagree that forcing production will help, I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary. The AJATT guys claims enough input will eventually lead to you being able to express yourself as well and I can agree for the most part.

Sorry but I disagree with this part of AJATT, and I can back it up. I have several British born Chinese friends in London whose speaking skills seriously lag behind their comprehension. In one extreme example, a friends parents spoke to them in Chinese as they grew up, but allowed them to always reply in English; this person now has pretty much 100% Chinese comprehension skills, but absolutely no speaking skills. They cannot form a single sentence.

There's actually a name for this phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_spe...(language)

Now thats not to say they wont be able to learn to speak easily with practise - but it is living proof that output does not automatically appear with alot of input.

IceCream Wrote:http://www.uib.no/med/avd/miapr/arvid/Ui...ainfun.gif

Hahaha, win! I love how one side of the argument is quoting the ramblings of Khatz and the other is posting brain scans.

Not that I necessarily agree with Khatz on this, but how do those brainscan pictures prove anything exactly...?

IceCream Wrote:http://www.uib.no/med/avd/miapr/arvid/Ui...ainfun.gif

What does the "generating words" label refer to? Is this the writing part?

Oh, um português por aqui! :O

So many replies, thank you!

One thing that helps is reading the sentences out loud, in my opinion. My speaking skills have increased quite a bit in the past months, due to reading out loud, to listening to podcasts, shadowing. I've been watching "Ayu ready?" a lot lately too.

I already read one or two news articles a day, and I add them to anki, with audio. What I'm going to do from now on is to write out by hand the articles one or two times. And make up a few dramas too.

What I'm also going to to is cards with an english word in the front and in the back the several japanese words I know for it (for example, "investigation", "connection" etc).


@caivano
Yes, we practise english output in schools, or at least I did.

Carolina, after SRSing 4000 words, how's your listening comprehension? How much of certain anime/drama/etc can you understand?

Seamoby Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:http://www.uib.no/med/avd/miapr/arvid/Ui...ainfun.gif

What does the "generating words" label refer to? Is this the writing part?

generating words means thinking of what words to say for yourself. Unfortunately, that image just comes from a medical index, & i can't remember the exact study it's from. But, i remember seeing a very similar picture in a book (i think it was this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cognitive-Neuros...331&sr=8-1).

If i'm remembering correctly, the "speaking" part actually referred to reading aloud, and "generating" referred to conversing. But don't quote me on that.

@nadiatims: it's not supposed to "prove" anything. That's why i didn't comment along with it. I just thought it was a striking image when i first saw it, and thought it was relevent taken along with the kind of things Nest0r was saying about the 4 strands.

In a very general, basic, way, since such different parts of the brain are active during each activity, i'm inclined to believe that each seperate skill does need training in it's own right in order to make that activity easier. That doesn't mean that they aren't mutually supportive to some extent, things are obviously more complex than that, they aren't entirely cut off from each other.

However, also remember this brain scan is from an adult brain, and many of the people claiming a "no output" theory learned english as children. A child's brain not only has much more plasticity than an adults, but it may show different patterns of activity as well, we can't know from that scan.

In any case, i'm not sure why AJATT is being brought up here tbh, it's not so relevent. There are plenty of people on this forum who've reached the same level Khatz was at after 1.5 years, and many of them would disagree on this point. We don't just have to take one person's opinion.

caivano Wrote:

Kuma01 Wrote:While I don't disagree that forcing production will help, I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary. The AJATT guys claims enough input will eventually lead to you being able to express yourself as well and I can agree for the most part. I'm guessing most people on here are native English speakers and have therefore probably never experienced learning a foreign language to fluency. I for example, have seldom come into situations where I need to express myself in English, but I'm able to because I've had such a large amount of exposure over the years. I've never had a blog in English, I never talked to natives via voice chat or anything but I dare say that if I were to move to an English speaking country I would manage just fine (similar to how the AJATT guy was able to be fluent before even going to Japan). I think with time you will be able to express yourself just fine if you just immerse yourself via reading/listening.

edit: I looked up the article: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ore-output

Isn't output practised in school English lessons in Europe?

No it is comparable to what most of us do, as it's focused mostly on gaining reading fluency.

Quote:Both Kuma and ueshiba come under the assumption of 100% input and 0% output. I mean, not even a single attempt of speaking or writing in English?

When did I say that, I simply said that my personal experience dictates that input is indeed much more important than forcing, at best, mediocre grammatically incorrect output. If I compare the amount of time I spent reading/listening to English and the time I spent using it then the latter wouldn't even be 1% of the time spent. The point is that this is my personal experience, and no matter how much brain scans or extreme incidental stories you throw at me it won't change how I acquired English fluency. Also I highly doubt the story about the Chinese person not being able to form any coherent sentences, because even before I started studying Japanese seriously I could form simple grammatically correct sentences without much effort. I seriously doubt that I'm the only person in existence for whom a certain amount of input corresponds to grammatically correct and natural output.

@kuma01 Can't have it both ways, to have us consider your story while you discredit the story about the Chinese person (which sounds plausible to me). Neither story carries more weight than the other.

Tori-kun Wrote:Using a lot of 'ateji' like あのー、えっと、さー and so forth, gave my brain a bit of 'time' formulating the right sentence

I don't think you mean 'ateji', which is about using kanji phonetically in words like 寿司.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateji

I'm actually not sure what the word is for those filler phrases in Japanese though. フィラー充当語??

A related word is あいづち (backchannel) which is about listener responses during conversation (all those ええ、うん etc.) used extensively in Japanese.

http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/CJKProceedings/h...hatasa.pdf
http://jalt-publications.org/archive/pro...9/E104.pdf