Sorry if someone posted a question similar to this one, I tried looking but didn't find anything.

I've been told to start with Kanji, and finish all the 2042. After that, I should go onto the "Remembering the Kana" book and that it's really quick to go through. I haven't really taken a look at that book, but my question is: At what point can you read Japanese? Basically, after I learn Kanji and then go through that Kana book, what's left before I should start picking up some all Japanese Manga and read through them? I know I won't be able to just pick it up and read it all easily. There is probably a lot of words/characters I'll have to look up when I first start, but when should I even consider picking it up and trying? I am learning Kanji and understand how it works, etc but not how they will come together to form sentences. Is that something that comes from learning Kana, etc?

Sorry if my questions are "beginner" questions. I just like to know what order I am going to be learning something in, and at what point I can expect to move onto the next phase.

You can start reading fairly quickly if you want. Learn the kana immediately and read Manga that provides furigana for each Kanji. Huzzah! You're reading Japanese! You may not understand the words but a decent dictionary and a structured approach to learning vocab will help with that.

The longer route to full literacy is to complete RTK. However long it takes to complete it, is the point at which you can read Japanese, I guess.

You can also use Rikaichan to read website in Japanese. Basicaly you have read a lot and study kanji. Heisig can help you with Kanji, Rikaichan with reading.

Mairo C. Vergara
http://mairoblog.blogspot.com/
http://mairovster.blogspot.com/

There is a logical view to learning kana after kanji; you get to learn the characters from which the kana derive, but this not worth delaying learning the kana for. My advice would be learn hiragana first, it will take a few days of solid work to get them down, maybe 2 weeks if you're short on time and can only study for 30mins a day but that's a huge over estimation.

I never really learned the katakana i just worked them out from context that's how i learned them but i'm sure the katakana can be learned just as fast.

Also paper flashcards are pretty much useless nowadays, you can use http://www.realkana.com as an electronic alternative, there is no leitner card system but you don't need it to learn them.

I learned the hiragana and katakana pretty much using these little tools:


http://www.chipchat.com/NihonGo/protect/...Drill.html

http://www.chipchat.com/NihonGo/protect/...Drill.html


When you have hiraganas down enough, you can start reading easy texts or web pages with rikaichan.

I also think that learning the kana should be the first thing on any learner's to-do list. If you really dedicate yourself to it, it can take a day or two. If you're slightly more relaxed then it will take a couple of weeks. I don't think it's too hard to just get it out of the way.

However, the other thing you're going to need in order to read is grammar. For that you'll need some kind of course, be it in a classroom or via self study. I started out with Japanese for busy people which I thought was pretty good for beginners. There's all sorts of other text books that have been recommended on this site. Check them out and learn some Japanese rather than some kanji and kana. You mentioned that you didn't know how the sentences would be put together. You definitely need to find that out before you can do anything. I don't know what level you're at but if you haven't started yet then you're going to have to go from the basic "This is a pen" and take it from there. It's a lot of fun!

meolox Wrote:there is no leitner card system but you don't need it to learn them.

That might be true but it would be really easy to create a deck in Anki and make a system. I'll do it for anyone that would like one. If someone could find a Japanese person to record sound samples of all of the hiragana then they could be used as prompts as well. No romaji needed.

You won't be able to read just knowing kana and kanji. You need to know the grammar and vocabulary and phrases too.

yukamina Wrote:You won't be able to read just knowing kana and kanji. You need to know the grammar and vocabulary and phrases too.

Indeed. You learned the kana? Congratulations! You know exactly what you knew the first day you entered the classroom for a language that uses an alphabet! (Well, that's implying you already knew an alphabet...) You still have to learn the language.

That goes for kanji as well: they help, and help a lot they do, but they are not almighty. Even if you know what every word in a sentence means, you still won't any idea what the sentence itself means without a working knowledge of the grammar rules being employed.

If you're just starting, then congratulations (no, really!): you're taking down one of the biggest barriers to the Japanese language. But, rest assured, it is not the only barrier, by any means.

You can only read as much as your vocab allows you to. I can "read" French, as in I can read a passage of French and generally know how to pronounce the words from my French at school. But i would have no idea what it means. So, to say, when can one read Japanese? doesn't make much sense to me.

megaqwerty Wrote:Even if you know what every word in a sentence means, you still won't any idea what the sentence itself means without a working knowledge of the grammar rules being employed.

Really? I don't think that's true at all.

I just invented a new language 5 seconds ago. It uses English words but different grammar. Have a look.

-----
Room in walkta man tall. Coworker to sayta he: "Eatse not sandwich my!" Angry very beta man.
-----

Are you going to tell me you don't have any idea what those sentences mean?

But a working knowledge of vocab is vital. Looking around me now, I can see so many kanji that i can "read" but I have no idea what it really means. Right before me is the kanji for "eye" and also for "bull's eye", next to each other as a compound. I have no idea what that means, so a working knowledge of vocab is needed.

I think if you saw the word 目的 (もくてき) enough times in different contexts, you'd be able to figure out what it means. The most vital part of reading a new language is having an open mind.

In fact, I bet if I give you this sentence, you'll be able to get a pretty good idea of what it means.
この本の目的は、読者に漢字の正しい使い方を伝えることです。

Edit: By the way, in that previous post I was responding to megaqwerty, not you.

JimmySeal Wrote:Room in walkta man tall. Coworker to sayta he: "Eatse not sandwich my!" Angry very beta man.

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

Granted, I was being a good deal extreme, but certain constructions, such as conditional clauses or something describing the lack of something can become confusing if you don't realize the full function of everything present. Obviously, this isn't likely to occur in common text (it's snuggled well in with legal junk, I believe), but that's what I was referring to, specifically. I would give a good example, but I, alas, cannot.

Hey Kijaro, from my Essential Resources thread in "Learning Resources":

My Hindsight Recommended Course to Learning Japanese:

Foundation (in this order):
Hiragana/Katakana Your basis for all Japanese to come. NO ROMAJI!
Heisig 1 It takes a while, but it solves what most consider the largest hurdle to Japanese
Pimsleur Listening Excellent introduction of essential Japanese through drilled listening/speaking
Tae Kim's Grammar Japanese explained from the inside


Vocab Building & Application (in any order/combination):
Vocab Drilling (Meguro JLPT Resources)
Heisig 2
A text (JFE, Minna Nihongo)
Reading (manga, children's newspaper, etc)
Writing (journal, Mixi, etc)
Listening (TV, radio, podcasts, etc)
Speaking (partner, exchange)

Good luck!

@Megaqwerty

So did you undertake a thorough study of English grammar before attempting to read sentences containing the word "if?"

Saying "some sentences can be confusing" is a far cry from saying "you can't understand anything without a working knowledge of the grammar involved."

JimmySeal, while I frequently argue that vocabulary will get your the farthest in understanding a new language, grammar tells you which way to go. Passive voice, negative verbs, compulsion, ability to perform, (plus any of the innumerable other verb conjugations), cause and effect, "backwards" particles, etc in Japanese all require precise understanding of the grammar to understand the sentence. Grammar nuance is essential to understanding a language, and they test it hard in the reading section on JLPT, giving discussions involving characters agreeing, disagreeing, and compromising on specifics to see if you really understand the grammar.

Quote:Passive voice, negative verbs, compulsion, ability to perform, (plus any of the innumerable other verb conjugations), cause and effect, "backwards" particles, etc in Japanese all require precise understanding of the grammar to understand the sentence.

Again, Japanese people have no trouble understanding their own language. Do you think they've all extensively studied Japanese grammar?

Quote:Grammar nuance is essential to understanding a language

I agree. And I don't think you can learn the nuance of a language very well by having it explained to you in English, or in Japanese for that matter.

Quote:they test it hard in the reading section on JLPT, giving discussions involving characters agreeing, disagreeing, and compromising on specifics to see if you really understand the grammar.

I don't think the JLPT determines the importance of its content. I think it's the other way around. But regardless, if I had needed to sit and think about grammar rules during the reading section of the JLPT, I wouldn't have finished within the allotted time. A sufficient amount of reading practice (with sufficient attention to the words and particles being read) will prepare one for the reading section. The grammar section (a big collection of rarely seen words and expressions) is another matter.

I apologize for going off-topic. In my own defense, it is slightly related to the main topic. Somehow.

JimmySeal Wrote:Again, Japanese people have no trouble understanding their own language. Do you think they've all extensively studied Japanese grammar?

Speaking of my own education, I would say that, yes, I did extensively study English grammar at one point (ninth grade English focused entirely on this, I believe). I do not know exactly what 国語 classes teach, but I would imagine that they do something similar at some point.

I stated that my words were extreme, but there is some truth to them, certainly a wee bit more than what you ascribe. And in the interest of not bogging this poor topic any further, I'll leave it at that.

It's ironic that I understood this,

JimmySeal Wrote:Room in walkta man tall. Coworker to sayta he: "Eatse not sandwich my!" Angry very beta man.

better than this,

JimmySeal Wrote:I don't think the JLPT determines the importance of its content. I think it's the other way around.

I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone on this thread. The more grammar "rules" etc. you know, the easier reading should be. But as JimmySeal is pointing out, knowledge of said rules isn't a pre-requisite to getting stuck in.

My personal take is that as long as I'm understanding more on say a page of text than I'm not understanding then it's not too much beyond me to give up.

To answer the question,

Quote:At what point can you read Japanese?

I'd say, whenever you think you're up to it.

JimmySeal, I haven't written fightin' words; I'm agreeing with you that Megaqwerty's choice of words was poorly chosen. One is not completely lost without grammar.

But one must "study" it to know it. Concentrated classroom study is not required to learn grammar, but it helps. There are grammar rules I've learned in minutes from a book or someone else that I haven't known after a couple years of study. Now I just have to master them by using them!

And, yes, I think the Japanese, like us, study grammar throughout their education. But no, as you said, none of us master it except through lots of practice.

Also, the JLPT being a good example or not, real language use involves a lot of agreement, disagreement, compromise, compulsion, etc. While I usually understand the topic of conversations I over hear, I often don't understand the nuances of the positions because I don't fully understand the grammar.

An interesting question that I had been wondering about too. Yesterday I started learning the Kana (next to RTK1), just because it's very, very annoying to read through the discussions here on the forum and having to "blank out" everything that's written with either Kana or Kanji. Granted I do recognize some of the Kanji but they don't hint what the Japanese sentence is about.
So I guess it's all down to look at grammar, vocabulary, and read a lot of example sentences...
As much as I dislike learning grammar, I do know it gets you a long way. We also had to learn German grammar in school and you can quite often tell if a person has not payed attention to those lessons. Their sentence structure is understandable but slightly off... and thats in the language they call their mother tongue.

I think I am going to take a very small break in my Kanji study. By break, I don't mean not practice at all. I just mean, not learn any new words but still go over what I've already learned, every day. I'll use the book "Remebering the.." for both Hiragana and Kana, and give myself about two-three days for each one so that I don't just remember them "okay" really fast, but at least know them decently. After that, I'll start my Kanji back up while I also read the book "Japanese in MangaLand" to begin to learn more about using the Hiragana, Kana, and Kanji together. The book should have enough repetition in it for me to remember Hiragana and Kana, but I'll probably go over those every few days as well. It does have Romaji in it also, but that's why I want to learn the Hiragana and Kana first decently, so I don't have to take a look at the Romaji ever.

Your best move is to finish Remembering the Kanji as soon as you can. Finishing Remembering the Kana first would probably be a good idea too, but I suggest you let Mangaland wait until you go through Remembering the Kanji.

It's easy to think of reading as either/or because most people can read skillfully or cannot read at all. But in our case reading might be better thought of as on a continuous scale, with each of us somewhere between the extremes of fluency and cluelessness.


If you're a normal human being you can probably pick up a manga right now and extract some meaning out of it, even if you don't understand a single character of Japanese. That's because pictures provide great context.

But someone who recognizes the kana can extract more meaning.

And someone who has completed RTK can extract even more meaning.

Someone who is familiar with this or that word, compound, sentence, pronunciation, or grammar point knows that much more, and so on.


So when do you know how to read? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure RTK+kana is only a hop along the way. Books and manga and web pages will remain puzzles. And I bet for a while the more you learn the more puzzling they will become.

If you asked me, though, I would say it doesn't matter. Pick up that manga the moment it pleases you to do so, and encourage that interest wherever you find it, because it's the journey you gotta' enjoy, and interest leads to excellence.

-- Daniel