nest0r Wrote:I think it's best to avoid such polar thinking, it's not an either/or equation, as you can see from my quoted comment. You might want to check into this paper by Paul Nation, called The Four Strands: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf ← It's a good example of a dynamic, balanced system for language learning. I've noticed the folks who incorporate what Nation calls language-focused learning and think strategically and hone their metacognitive self-study skills tend to be less polar in their approach than folks who focus on input while avoiding grammar, et cetera. The more efficient you want to be (learning more in the same amount of time, as this other paper notes), the more strategic, active, and fluid you should be as you study the language. I would go as far as to say that any method or advice that doesn't realize this is rubbish.

The stuff in the paper seems like common sense stuff to me (I admit I just skimmed it), I'm not saying people shouldn't vary what they study. And yeah, if you have time, finding ways (within reason) to study more effectively is a good idea.

But there is a trade off, even for me who has a decent amount of time, I would rather spend the time I could have spent reading said paper studying Japanese, and I'm pretty sure reading it properly wouldn't have improved my efficiency.

It's a trade off in that the less effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more inferior your learning will be. In the other direction, the more effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more superior your learning will be and the less you will need to study vs. less efficient methods, and you'll have more time to study, and you'll be more inclined to study.

nest0r Wrote:It's a trade off in that the less effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more inferior your learning will be. In the other direction, the more effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more superior your learning will be and the less you will need to study vs. less efficient methods, and you'll have more time to study, and you'll be more inclined to study.

If only this worked in the real world. Although the idea of learning how to learn so you can optimize your learning sounds nice on paper it never seems to translate into tangible results. Instead more brute force methods, such as various forms of immersion with full native materials, seem to give the overall fastest path. The sum total of just forcing your way through it works only because superior methods still haven't been developed.

Ultimately we should leave academic research where it belongs which is in the lab. It's great that there are people who are attempting to understand how people learn languages, but the cutting edge "technology" of language learning will always be left to methods and people that are touted as absurd by academia. Luckily the best of these methods, such a Heisig's ordering of the kanji, will be adopted anyway. Eventually there will be research papers written about self-study and immersion methods such as AntiMoon, but by the time that happens language lovers will have developed even better methods.

nest0r Wrote:It's a trade off in that the less effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more inferior your learning will be.

It's not as simple as that, if you're spending half your time / effort studying studying rather than just studying, it will not be more efficient than just studying. There is going to be an optimal amount of time to spend on strategies / methods / tools etc vs actual study and it is going to differ from person to person.

I'm aware that I sometimes spend too much time on strategies / methods / tools and have too get back to focusing on Japanese.

A question about Silverspoon - I think I read that it's meant to be customized which is the reason so few are spots are available. Yet the reviews I read mentioned that the pace and level were not good for them. So what kind of personalized assessment is done? And if it's not actually customized, then what's with the "exclusivity" marketing?

tokyostyle Wrote:

Ginmanm Wrote:You dig up a comment from weeks ago?

Weeks ago? Seriously? I don't think abnormality should be defined as not having the ability to check a forum daily. If it was months old then I could agree. Furthermore the topic will be fairly relevant as long as AJATT provides the service.

Ginmanm Wrote:Anyway, why do people worship this AJATT guy?

Here's a very short, non exhaustive list of people whom no one worships and yet people still pay for their services: TEPCO, NTT Docomo, Tokyo Gas, SkyPerfect, JR East, and Starbucks. (Yes, I have a coffee addiction and yet it's a problem.)

I don't see your point. Is it that hard for you to fruit pick any article or read foreign chat rooms/forums for practice to learn a language? Then when vocab is stock piled all that's left is to move to the country and speak with natives,no need to pay. But if you like spending $2/perday when all you need to do is read/listen then go for it.

Ginmanm Wrote:I don't see your point. Is it that hard for you to fruit pick any article or read foreign chat rooms/forums for practice to learn a language? Then when vocab is stock piled all that's left is to move to the country and speak with natives,no need to pay. But if you like spending $2/perday when all you need to do is read/listen then go for it.

I really don't get what your point is...It seems to be a generic "paying for Silverspoon is dumb because you can do it on your own." And I agree with that, nobody needs it.

But then why are classes so popular? You can argue about their effectiveness, that's another discussion, but the fact remains that a bunch of people take classes to study languages. Even if they know about other methods, what they're paying for is direction. Especially at the beginner level, you can't just sit down and play a videogame side-by-side in L1 and L2 and expect to learn a whole lot. Once you know the basic grammar, and a enough words, you can probably go off that, but not starting from 0.

Silverspoon is just another class, and people take it because beginning a new language on your own is overwhelming. Whether or not they get their money's worth is up to them. Why should you care?

caivano Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:It's a trade off in that the less effort you put into being strategic in how you study, and developing your metacognitive awareness, the more inferior your learning will be.

It's not as simple as that, if you're spending half your time / effort studying studying rather than just studying, it will not be more efficient than just studying.

Yes, it will be, because you'll need less time studying due to the time you spent studying studying.

caivano Wrote:There is going to be an optimal amount of time to spend on strategies / methods / tools etc vs actual study and it is going to differ from person to person.

Yes, and understanding this is something that developing your metacognition aids you in (it's also going to change per person).

caivano Wrote:I'm aware that I sometimes spend too much time on strategies / methods / tools and have too get back to focusing on Japanese.

It's not an either/or equation. Folks that think it is might have trouble balancing these things, but even they should realize they don't need to make it one or the other as they get better at the former. But that requires actually delving into the former rather putting blinders on and thinking input is a magic pill.

I don't see a problem with questioning the validity or need of the idea of a product without trying it and reviewing it. Of course, it's possible to do this without name-calling.

I don't believe I've actually commented on Silverspoon other than to ask if the argument was about the content of AJATT or the idea of virtual tutoring, but I also can't imagine much use to it. Be your own tutor. If you have limited time, I recommend using the undiluted, superior strategies and resources that are freely available and spend time learning how to learn better. It's best in the long run. That's not an argument, it's well-established already. Unfortunately it's also shown to be counterintuitive until it's explained and demonstrated.

Now stuff worth paying for, hello RTK and Anki. ^_^

Edit: I believe I have commented on the commercialization of AJATT in general. The only thing I mocked about that, I think, was the ‘Get ideas for free at RevtK, dilute them and sell them at AJATT Plus’ stuff. Of course since AJATT Plus seems to be a forum, the leech mentality can lead to parasitism from here to there from posters. The drag's on their system, though, so that doesn't bother me.

Thora Wrote:A question about Silverspoon - I think I read that it's meant to be customized which is the reason so few are spots are available. Yet the reviews I read mentioned that the pace and level were not good for them. So what kind of personalized assessment is done? And if it's not actually customized, then what's with the "exclusivity" marketing?

It's exclusively customized to Khatzumoto's personal schedule for remembering to dole out blanket advice targeted to a generic pace, maybe? Unless he uses automatic scheduling. ^_^

@Ginmanm

I think you need to chill out. You seem to have trouble reading other peoples' comments, for whatever reason: you misquoted or misread my comment and wrote something that made no sense in response, then when Asriel states “And I agree with that, nobody needs it.” you call them a fanboy, and all in a nasty tone that compounds the issue and makes one less lenient in their understanding of your reading comprehension difficulties. I suggest you use your adult voice when conversing with others. Hopefully you can understand this comment as I have written it.

nest0r Wrote:@Ginmanm

I think you need to chill out. You seem to have trouble reading other peoples' comments, for whatever reason: you misquoted or misread my comment and wrote something that made no sense in response, then when Asriel states “And I agree with that, nobody needs it.” you call them a fanboy, and all in a nasty tone that compounds the issue and makes one less lenient in their understanding of your reading comprehension difficulties. I suggest you use your adult voice when conversing with others. Hopefully you can understand this comment as I have written it.

ごめんなさい,私はまだ彼が安いと思う

Asriel Wrote:

Ginmanm Wrote:I don't see your point. Is it that hard for you to fruit pick any article or read foreign chat rooms/forums for practice to learn a language? Then when vocab is stock piled all that's left is to move to the country and speak with natives,no need to pay. But if you like spending $2/perday when all you need to do is read/listen then go for it.

I really don't get what your point is...It seems to be a generic "paying for Silverspoon is dumb because you can do it on your own." And I agree with that, nobody needs it.

But then why are classes so popular? You can argue about their effectiveness, that's another discussion, but the fact remains that a bunch of people take classes to study languages. Even if they know about other methods, what they're paying for is direction. Especially at the beginner level, you can't just sit down and play a videogame side-by-side in L1 and L2 and expect to learn a whole lot. Once you know the basic grammar, and a enough words, you can probably go off that, but not starting from 0.

Silverspoon is just another class, and people take it because beginning a new language on your own is overwhelming. Whether or not they get their money's worth is up to them. Why should you care?

Personally I think it's most important for beginners to take the reins in their own hands ASAP when it comes to stuff like language-learning. They can ease off in that regard as they get better and it becomes more automatic and learning becomes more a matter of tweaking here and there. I think people take spoonfeeding type stuff because of convenience that seems intuitive, but it's a short-term convenience at the expense of long-term success.

For people who are overwhelmed, I think it's better to have community support and develop savvy in gathering and using resources through self-study, rather than appeal to a top-down authority who is an authority merely because they say so and you believe them.

I'll tell you why I care. I care because I wish to uphold all that is good and sacred in this world. I care because I believe in Truth, Justice, and the RevTK way. I care because true evil is when good people do nothing, according to the Irish preacher from that action movie.

@nestor: I second that. Not sure about the Irish preacher though.

Irixmark Wrote:@nestor: I second that. Not sure about the Irish preacher though.

Ever seen The Boondock Saints?

Though I guess it came from Edmund Burke originally.

AJATT is probably what got me started. I didn't find it, I highly doubt I'd be spending a lot of time learning jp. For most people, they just need motivation and good methods to get far. And for people who want to progress fast, then immersion,srsing and learning at a high amount daily, is the way to go.

nest0r, have you actually read the OP's blog? He's been trying to learn Japanese for 10 years now, and still hasn't made significant progress.

For whatever reason, learning to self-study hasn't worked for him. I'm guessing after all this time, he doesn't want to continue researching how to study? He hasn't found an ideal way yet, after a decade, why do you think he suddenly can now??

I agree finding your own path is best overall; but the problem with this is, how do you know your way is actually good? If you plan a study method and stick at it for a year with little to no results, do you stick with it or move on to a new method? Imagine trying a different method over and over without making progress - how long before you just assume its you and give up completely?

I actually admire the OP's tenacity and am interested to see if silverspoon works for him. Remember is has a money back guarantee, so if after 18 months he's not fluent he hasn't lost anything, so what's the harm?

Finally, I don't agree that following a course like this will harm him long. Learning a language is like a snowball rolling down hill; the further you go, the easier it gets. Once you're over the difficultly of going from total beginner to intermediate / advanced, then its likely you can start picking up things from context - much more fun and easier way of learning. Plus its naive to imagine he won't pick up any new study habits just because he's following a set course; why on earth won't he?

Thora Wrote:A question about Silverspoon - I think I read that it's meant to be customized which is the reason so few are spots are available. Yet the reviews I read mentioned that the pace and level were not good for them. So what kind of personalized assessment is done? And if it's not actually customized, then what's with the "exclusivity" marketing?

I really want to answer this question better, but I feel like I can't because I don't fully understand your bias. SilverSpoon is a very cheap step-by-step, day-by-day regurgitation of stuff that has been posted on the blog. There's no pace and level customization. It is designed for people who don't know any Japanese at all. It also assumes that you can (1) spend an hour or two a day of active learning and (2) can spend much of the rest of your day listening to Japanese somehow. The days are usually paced so that the work load generally goes from light to medium to heavy to medium and back to light.

There has been a lot of of misunderstanding about what the pace really is, but when people ask for help and clarification then Khatzu attempts to correct their assumptions. The main confusion comes from the fact that his day plans are based on time-boxing and some people get too caught up in the exact times and order he puts things. It's kind of scary how literal some people take his suggestions.

The exclusivity is because he wants to be able to read and respond to everything we post and if there are too many of us then we generate too many dumb questions for him to answer.

nest0r Wrote:Personally I think it's most important for beginners to take the reins in their own hands ASAP when it comes to stuff like language-learning.

I realize my comment doesn't relate to what you actually posted, but reading this reminded me of something I thought after structured learning failed me and I finally found resources such as RevTK and AJATT.

The big failure of most teachers is that they don't provide enough guidance on how to take the reins. They just throw you an unsaddled horse. The beauty of SilverSpoon is that there is still tons left to the student. At first you are taught what and how to do it and then after that you are left to either execute as taught or modify things to fit your needs.

---

Anyone still caught up on the price of SilverSpoon should have plenty of free time to create their own study schedule. The service is clearly only for people who cannot or will not do it themselves. Everything in the daily plans has been posted on the AJATT blog and several alternative methods are available on this forum. Anyone with enough time and motivation can most definitely make a method that is superior. (... and when you do there will be people lining up to buy it.)

I've updated my blog.

http://thespoonthatfeeds.com/

Cheers for following

Tokyostyle, thanks for the explanation. (It was a straight question.) :-)

So I understand the content is fixed, but Mr AJATT is available to answer questions from the group at a Silverspoon site. I can't imagine those would be either numerous or difficult. Surely they could easily be answered in a forum format without Mr. AJATT's participation.

It's $60/month for what sounds like essentially a course reading list (prices to increase.) Plus another $150-$250/month to third parties for equipment, materials, etc. (including a pillow speaker.) (Plus optional $150-$250/month for media.) Guaranteed fluency in 18 months.* Potential revenue is:
60 人 　- $3600/m
100 人 -　$6000/m
200 人　- $12000/m

Based on the descriptions I've read, the content creation wouldn't involve too much work since it's apparently mostly links to resources and media. (Compared to, say, creating original material, exercises, lectures and activities for a class.) The same content is re-used for each group.

I think AJATT is taking the business in the wrong direction; a guru business model is a poor choice for both owners and learners/customers. I'd have expected the way Silverspoon is marketed would have scared off most people.

*[edit: the fluency guarantee turns out to be actually meaningless b/c a refund is offered for any reason. But it's what people are talking about...]

Thora Wrote:I think AJATT is taking the business in the wrong direction; a guru business model is a poor choice for both owners and learners/customers. I'd have expected the way Silverspoon is marketed would have scared off most people.

I think the Eric Cartman Fairground method of only allowing a few people in each month is keeping readers chomping at the bit to get in. As more and more people blog and write about whether they succeed or not, we will see if the program works or not. Plus he offers you a moneyback guarantee if it doesn't so your revenue estimations have to take that into account as well. He only gets the money if his students succeed and that's a bold statement to make.

... i can't remember hearing of anyone, ever, who chose to buy a product or not based on how much the person selling is making.

probably the person who employs someone else to make toothpicks and then took all the money for themselves except minimum wage for the worker + keeping the machine running is a millionaire. Doesn't matter as long as people want toothpicks...

Thora Wrote:Based on the descriptions I've read, the content creation wouldn't involve too much work since it's apparently mostly links to resources and media. (Compared to, say, creating original material, exercises, lectures and activities for a class.) The same content is re-used for each group.

I agree with your observation here, but you are still coming at it from the wrong perspective. The content creation is mostly trivial for Khatz, but he clearly puts a lot of work into the site. In return he is definitely getting a nice revenue stream and one that seems to be fairly sustainable.

However, if I were try to create the content myself I would be wasting the potential for ~$150 a day in my personal situation. I'm sure there are many many other ways for me to discover this content and these methods myself, but I need to use that time on Japanese instead.

So it really doesn't matter that it is trivial for Khatzu to make the content because hundreds of people want this service. I would guess that anyone who took the time to make even a marginally better service could charge twice what Khatzu is and have just as many customers.

IceCream Wrote:... i can't remember hearing of anyone, ever, who chose to buy a product or not based on how much the person selling is making.

probably the person who employs someone else to make toothpicks and then took all the money for themselves except minimum wage for the worker + keeping the machine running is a millionaire. Doesn't matter as long as people want toothpicks...

This is such an excellent observation that I'm going to re-quote it just because it contains such fundamental truths about economics! The market is self correcting ... when SilverSpoon is no longer needed by people it will go away!

Apologies for the lack of updating

Ive now updated my blog at

http://thespoonthatfeeds.com/

The latest post is days 40-78.

Thanks for reading.

Hi tarkonis, just subscribed to your blog. Look forward to seeing your progress. :-)