thecite Wrote:I was put off Timothy Ferriss when I read his crappy advice for learning languages.

Was that before or after he won the kickboxing championships by being a dick?

I think it was before that, but after he outsourced his personal life to India.

Ive posted days 11-20 thoughts

tarkonis Wrote:Ive posted days 11-20 thoughts

I'm not married and have no kids myself.. I can't imagine what it must be like learning something 'around' them, so to speak. Keep it up and you'll get there!

I meant to read your whole site, I really did... but after I got near the bottom of the first post and saw the Google+ +1 Icon, I immediately became jealous and closed the browser.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:I meant to read your whole site, I really did... but after I got near the bottom of the first post and saw the Google+ +1 Icon, I immediately became jealous and closed the browser.

Jealous?

I'm balding and have small man boobs... srsly?

zer0range Wrote:

tarkonis Wrote:Ive posted days 11-20 thoughts

I'm not married and have no kids myself.. I can't imagine what it must be like learning something 'around' them, so to speak. Keep it up and you'll get there!

Posts like this feed my motivation.

That was the point of the creation of this blog. So thanks very much for the support.

tarkonis Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:I meant to read your whole site, I really did... but after I got near the bottom of the first post and saw the Google+ +1 Icon, I immediately became jealous and closed the browser.

Jealous?

I'm balding and have small man boobs... srsly?

Still a little jealous

But read your site, very cool. Looking forward to the middle and end results and how far it gets you.

Cheers mate, im looking forward to it as well.

tarkonis Wrote:

zer0range Wrote:

tarkonis Wrote:Ive posted days 11-20 thoughts

I'm not married and have no kids myself.. I can't imagine what it must be like learning something 'around' them, so to speak. Keep it up and you'll get there!

Posts like this feed my motivation.

That was the point of the creation of this blog. So thanks very much for the support.

What I've learned so far in these 21months of learning Jp and still learning is: anyone can learn Japanese to full proficiency(reading,speaking,listening and writing). But there is a catch, you have to maintain(i.e. keep learning everyday) and have a general passion to keep you going.

nadiatims Wrote:I think it's precisely because your time is precious that you shouldn't hand it over to Khatz, a person whose methods basically rely on complete overkill instead of efficiency.

The SilverSpoon stuff is way more efficient than anything that has been posted here. It was a good troll attempt though.

Considering your join date shouldn't you be well beyond the point of needing help from Khatz...?

Serious question, I'm curious.

nadiatims Wrote:Considering your join date shouldn't you be well beyond the point of needing help from Khatz...?

Serious question, I'm curious.

Drum roll...

tarkonis Wrote:It's impossible to do this in a working environment. I work most of the day then come home and look after my daughter.

Considering he told us he has a family and a job, I'd assume that's all the reason anyone should need to understand why someone's progress isn't as far as it *should be.

*how far anyone should be is nothing anyone else can judge.

I think everyone should read Icecream's post.

tokyostyle Wrote:

nadiatims Wrote:I think it's precisely because your time is precious that you shouldn't hand it over to Khatz, a person whose methods basically rely on complete overkill instead of efficiency.

The SilverSpoon stuff is way more efficient than anything that has been posted here. It was a good troll attempt though.

You dig up a comment from weeks ago? Anyway, why do people worship this AJATT guy? Reading his blog it seems hes talented with writing (hypnotizing) people with his entrepreneurship. Was he writing the scripts for Billy Mays infomercials? I surely don't need his advice for studying heisig first-I already knew that. 10,000 sentences idea? Sure...but that wasn't his idea to begin with.

Ginmanm Wrote:You dig up a comment from weeks ago? Anyway, why do people worship this AJATT guy? Reading his blog it seems hes talented with writing (hypnotizing) people with his entrepreneurship. Was he writing the scripts for Billy Mays infomercials? I surely don't need his advice for studying heisig first-I already knew that. 10,000 sentences idea? Sure...but that wasn't his idea to begin with.

Worship is a rather strong word. No one worships him.

You don't have to like him or his blog, but no one can deny how motivational his blog is. At the end of the day, motivation can be hard to find. But you sit here and say he's "hypnotizing." How?

He gave credit where credit was due when you finish reading his "10,000 sentences: How" article. (Let's also keep in mind that not everyone knows about RTK like you)

And for every single product he sells, he explicitly claims how much we don't need the product.

Khatz is a nice guy. Why do people have to bash Khatz? Have a sense of humor people - Khatz sure does (I mean, am I the only one catching it when I read his blog?)

More power to someone for trying to make some money, yo.

Voelkerio Wrote:

Ginmanm Wrote:You dig up a comment from weeks ago? Anyway, why do people worship this AJATT guy? Reading his blog it seems hes talented with writing (hypnotizing) people with his entrepreneurship. Was he writing the scripts for Billy Mays infomercials? I surely don't need his advice for studying heisig first-I already knew that. 10,000 sentences idea? Sure...but that wasn't his idea to begin with.

Worship is a rather strong word. No one worships him.

You don't have to like him or his blog, but no one can deny how motivational his blog is. At the end of the day, motivation can be hard to find. But you sit here and say he's "hypnotizing." How?

He gave credit where credit was due when you finish reading his "10,000 sentences: How" article. (Let's also keep in mind that not everyone knows about RTK like you)

And for every single product he sells, he explicitly claims how much we don't need the product.

Khatz is a nice guy. Why do people have to bash Khatz? Have a sense of humor people - Khatz sure does (I mean, am I the only one catching it when I read his blog?)

More power to someone for trying to make some money, yo.

"Khatz is a nice guy" -yeah I don't believe that trash one bit. Nice people would give any advice they used to learn their language for free. And maybe perhaps the optional extra helpers or features for their software/website or a donate button. You have tons and tons of examples out their,some turned their backs on other users (smart.fm for example) others stay faithful to those who made them stand where they are today.

I see that as a ploy to trick the elderly because they don't have the "motivation" and time to learn the language. He knows well enough it won't attract the younger more wiser readers (unless you're stupid).Well written essays from a guy who probably studied Rhetoric really well and been through hell in writers block. Hes studied Chinese beforehand, so he had no trouble at all with his Japanese.

"Keep in mind not many people don't know about RTK like you"-so you're implying people know about this Khatz guy before they want to learn hiragana and katakana? Lots of people check Yahoo! answers for their questions I'm sure, no one ever recommends that frauds blog first. Even if I were to recommend a blogger I would give someone the link to koichi ben.

Ginmanm Wrote:"Khatz is a nice guy" -yeah I don't believe that trash one bit. Nice people would give any advice they used to learn their language for free. And maybe perhaps the optional extra helpers or features for their software/website or a donate button. You have tons and tons of examples out their,some turned their backs on other users (smart.fm for example) others stay faithful to those who made them stand where they are today.

I see that as a ploy to trick the elderly because they don't have the "motivation" and time to learn the language. He knows well enough it won't attract the younger more wiser readers (unless you're stupid).Well written essays from a guy who probably studied Rhetoric really well and been through hell in writers block. Hes studied Chinese beforehand, so he had no trouble at all with his Japanese.

"Keep in mind not many people don't know about RTK like you"-so you're implying people know about this Khatz guy before they want to learn hiragana and katakana? Lots of people check Yahoo! answers for their questions I'm sure, no one ever recommends that frauds blog first. Even if I were to recommend a blogger I would give someone the link to koichi ben.

You seem to be basing your opinion of Khatz off the fact that he is selling some of his products. Let's remember that Khatz DID give away all the secrets for free. Everything we need to know Khatz gave us for free.

What he didn't do was recommend what you should be watching or doing every day - the thing SilverSpoon offers. Why put hours and hours into organizing a product that offers a play-by-play that promises fluency in 400 or 500 days, with a money back guarantee, without asking for money? Sounds rather illogical to do otherwise.

I said "Not everyone knows RTK like you", but perhaps I should have said "Perhaps not everyone knows about RTK before they stumble across AJATT". Speaking personally from me, I found AJATT before I found out about RTK.

I don't think I would have bothered to do RTK had I just found some YouTube video about it that had a thousand views or so.

Koichi has videos of him talking to us, which I believe makes more people believe in him because we get to see he's human. Keep in him he's also selling a book (just like Khatz!) because who wouldn't want to try to make a living off of something that worked for them?

We can't not like someone because they put hours into a product and want to make money.

I mean, I don't hate the bookstore for making me buy a book that helps me become a better cook.

Meh. The usual discourse, I see.

It occurs to me upon some review of comments here and elsewhere that AJATT is a system for leechers, not seeders. It's probably best the drag is placed on a system that's built for entitlement. Reduces the deadweight in more positive, productive language-learning spheres like this forum, even if some of them sneeringly come here to take what is freely offered. The tools and ideas here inevitably bleed into AJATT, even if diluted for the trickle-down guru design, so you can avoid the downer of thinking too much about them or feeling you're shirking your civic duty to promote critical thought.

Voelkerio Wrote:

Ginmanm Wrote:"Khatz is a nice guy" -yeah I don't believe that trash one bit. Nice people would give any advice they used to learn their language for free. And maybe perhaps the optional extra helpers or features for their software/website or a donate button. You have tons and tons of examples out their,some turned their backs on other users (smart.fm for example) others stay faithful to those who made them stand where they are today.

I see that as a ploy to trick the elderly because they don't have the "motivation" and time to learn the language. He knows well enough it won't attract the younger more wiser readers (unless you're stupid).Well written essays from a guy who probably studied Rhetoric really well and been through hell in writers block. Hes studied Chinese beforehand, so he had no trouble at all with his Japanese.

"Keep in mind not many people don't know about RTK like you"-so you're implying people know about this Khatz guy before they want to learn hiragana and katakana? Lots of people check Yahoo! answers for their questions I'm sure, no one ever recommends that frauds blog first. Even if I were to recommend a blogger I would give someone the link to koichi ben.

You seem to be basing your opinion of Khatz off the fact that he is selling some of his products. Let's remember that Khatz DID give away all the secrets for free. Everything we need to know Khatz gave us for free.

What he didn't do was recommend what you should be watching or doing every day - the thing SilverSpoon offers. Why put hours and hours into organizing a product that offers a play-by-play that promises fluency in 400 or 500 days, with a money back guarantee, without asking for money? Sounds rather illogical to do otherwise.

I said "Not everyone knows RTK like you", but perhaps I should have said "Perhaps not everyone knows about RTK before they stumble across AJATT". Speaking personally from me, I found AJATT before I found out about RTK.

I don't think I would have bothered to do RTK had I just found some YouTube video about it that had a thousand views or so.

Koichi has videos of him talking to us, which I believe makes more people believe in him because we get to see he's human. Keep in him he's also selling a book (just like Khatz!) because who wouldn't want to try to make a living off of something that worked for them?

We can't not like someone because they put hours into a product and want to make money.

I mean, I don't hate the bookstore for making me buy a book that helps me become a better cook.

Yes koichi is selling a book on learning Kanji (completely different from learning an entire language),because Heisig doesn't work for everybody. Either way you can buy the RTK book or his and still use this website. the two of them have their own style of giving information however the reason I brought up Koichi is because his articles direct you to other helpful sites to learn Japanese for beginners who just starting out tips/and Japanese culture.


Now the concept is simple: "what you should be watching doing every day"-quote
Excuse me sir? Not to sound ignorant,but that's telling me straight on what I should do in order to reach fluency In Japanese. First of all, like you mentioned he has given you all his "secrets" to get your feet wet. I thought language learning was supposed to be fun and that the individual is learning it solely for the purpose of what motivated him/her to learn a language.
Whatever made you pick up the language be it friends or video games the answer should always be-spend the TIME with the language and what motivates you. Even if his so called method works its up to you as the individual to spend the time! I like video games for example...I will buy imports and play it along side translation because its what motivates me to learn the language. My vocabulary and understanding still grows while I'm having fun. Did your parents force you to watch and do something everyday to learn English at the age of 4? Or did you learn gradually by listening and reading with whatever so as long as you enjoy it and learn?

And like I already mentioned,he has learned Chinese beforehand. He most likely has taken classes,although that doesn't guarantee fluency. Never believe 1 answer solutions like silver spoon. I will wait for someone to come out with a review a year later and see just how good they can speak Japanese.

nest0r Wrote:Meh. The usual discourse, I see.

It occurs to me upon some review of comments here and elsewhere that AJATT is a system for leechers, not seeders. It's probably best the drag is placed on a system that's built for entitlement. Reduces the deadweight in more positive, productive language-learning spheres like this forum, even if some of them sneeringly come here to take what is freely offered. The tools and ideas here inevitably bleed into AJATT, even if diluted for the trickle-down guru design, so you can avoid the downer of thinking too much about them or feeling you're shirking your civic duty to promote critical thought.

Don't say anything when you're not paying everyday for his program. If you are, come back within the time given he instructed you and tell us just how well you can converse (key word right there) in Japanese.

I really don't understand people who take issue with capitalism. No one is forcing you pay Khatz any money. If you want his product you pay. And Khatz does seem like a nice guy as far as I can tell. The issue for me has never been the commerciality of AJATT or Khatz personality. I recommend against following his advice because I consider it sub-optimal. And I think that's evidenced by all the people doing their best to follow his advice but generally not reaching fluency in 18 months.

nest0r Wrote:Meh. The usual discourse, I see.

It occurs to me upon some review of comments here and elsewhere that AJATT is a system for leechers, not seeders. It's probably best the drag is placed on a system that's built for entitlement. Reduces the deadweight in more positive, productive language-learning spheres like this forum, even if some of them sneeringly come here to take what is freely offered. The tools and ideas here inevitably bleed into AJATT, even if diluted for the trickle-down guru design, so you can avoid the downer of thinking too much about them or feeling you're shirking your civic duty to promote critical thought.

I think it's good for some people to focus on content rather than tools to be honest. If someone has limited time then messing about with tools rather than actually studying is not an efficient way to go imo.

Ginmanm Wrote:Now the concept is simple: "what you should be watching doing every day"-quote
Excuse me sir? Not to sound ignorant,but that's telling me straight on what I should do in order to reach fluency In Japanese. First of all, like you mentioned he has given you all his "secrets" to get your feet wet. I thought language learning was supposed to be fun and that the individual is learning it solely for the purpose of what motivated him/her to learn a language.
Whatever made you pick up the language be it friends or video games the answer should always be-spend the TIME with the language and what motivates you. Even if his so called method works its up to you as the individual to spend the time! I like video games for example...I will buy imports and play it along side translation because its what motivates me to learn the language. My vocabulary and understanding still grows while I'm having fun. Did your parents force you to watch and do something everyday to learn English at the age of 4? Or did you learn gradually by listening and reading with whatever so as long as you enjoy it and learn?

I might be misunderstanding this, but now I don't seem to be able to follow your point.

To sum up what I was hoping people would understand: I do not believe we should bash Khatz or anyone who is willing to pay for SilverSpoon as some seem to be doing. It's just not your thing.

I commented on this thread because some posters were bashing Khatz and they were talking about something along the lines of how "if you don't have the time, then you don't deserve to learn the language..."

Now, SilverSpoon offers a product that achieves rapid Japanese learning to those who don't have the time or want to put in hours of effort trying to find resources themselves. So yes, as you said learning should be fun, but who's to say SilverSpoon isn't? Especially for some people. Speaking personally for me, any learning is fun! (I never said I believe SilverSpoon is the solution for everyone)

All I want to put out there is that we don't have to bash it like it's some sort of devilish creation that people shouldn't buy into. We don't even know what it entails!

And we can't relate learning a language at age 4 to learning a language at age 15+ Learning a language rather effortlessly seems like something humans are programmed to do at a young age.

caivano Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Meh. The usual discourse, I see.

It occurs to me upon some review of comments here and elsewhere that AJATT is a system for leechers, not seeders. It's probably best the drag is placed on a system that's built for entitlement. Reduces the deadweight in more positive, productive language-learning spheres like this forum, even if some of them sneeringly come here to take what is freely offered. The tools and ideas here inevitably bleed into AJATT, even if diluted for the trickle-down guru design, so you can avoid the downer of thinking too much about them or feeling you're shirking your civic duty to promote critical thought.

I think it's good for some people to focus on content rather than tools to be honest. If someone has limited time then messing about with tools rather than actually studying is not an efficient way to go imo.

I think it's best to avoid such polar thinking, it's not an either/or equation, as you can see from my quoted comment. You might want to check into this paper by Paul Nation, called The Four Strands: http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/staff/Pub...trands.pdf ← It's a good example of a dynamic, balanced system for language learning. I've noticed the folks who incorporate what Nation calls language-focused learning and think strategically and hone their metacognitive self-study skills tend to be less polar in their approach than folks who focus on input while avoiding grammar, et cetera. The more efficient you want to be (learning more in the same amount of time, as this other paper notes), the more strategic, active, and fluid you should be as you study the language. I would go as far as to say that any method or advice that doesn't realize this is rubbish.

Ginmanm Wrote:You dig up a comment from weeks ago?

Weeks ago? Seriously? I don't think abnormality should be defined as not having the ability to check a forum daily. If it was months old then I could agree. Furthermore the topic will be fairly relevant as long as AJATT provides the service.

Ginmanm Wrote:Anyway, why do people worship this AJATT guy?

Here's a very short, non exhaustive list of people whom no one worships and yet people still pay for their services: TEPCO, NTT Docomo, Tokyo Gas, SkyPerfect, JR East, and Starbucks. (Yes, I have a coffee addiction and yet it's a problem.)