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Using the Japanese IME

#1
Formerly How can I input hiragana 'zu' (from tsu)?

Say I'm trying to input "tsuzukeru" (continue) in hiragana input mode. Typing "zu" gives me the [kana]su[/kana] version ([kana]tsuzukeru[/kana]) rather than the [kana]tsu[/kana] version.

Romaji input mode seems to understand and convert "tsuzukeru", but not the hiragana input mode. I'm using Windows Japanese input, in case that makes a difference.

I've tried every bizarre combination I can think of. Please help.
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#2
du works.
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#3
Thanks. i should have asked right away.
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#4
Here's the trick to remembering how to imput ぢand づ:

da di du de do
だ ぢ づ で ど
za zi zu ze zo
ざ じ ず ぜ ぞ
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#5
Ok, I've been wondering about one of these for a while, so I'll hijack this thread a little.

Several of my SRS sentences have the word パーティー (party) but I can't work out how to type the ティ with out doing a テ then a フィ and deleting the フ.

I guess I could have googled the answer, but as I could use the above method it wasn't stopping me!!
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#6
if you type 'texi' you get ティ

the x maxes anything small (if it might possibly make sense)

i dunno if there is a faster way to type it
Edited: 2007-09-13, 5:29 pm
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#7
x - ooh...good to know (I was using MM's method as well). On the topic of Japanese input, I'd love to throw two other questions out there:

* Is there any reason not to have Japanese input set as default and us Direct Input when I want to type English? It's a drag switching back and forth all the time.

*Does anyone know if I can use a hiragana keyboard with English operating system? Or set my existing keyboard to enter hiragana (not romaji)? Or....?
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#8
I'm not sure a pure hiragana keyboard is a good idea... what happens when a program asks you to "Hit C to continue"? I get the feeling though that hybrid keyboards are commonplace in Japan, with keys doubling Alphas and Kana.

Thora Wrote:It's a drag switching back and forth all the time.
I use Alt-Shift to switch between Japanese and English input on Windows XP and Vista, it's convenient enough for me. Also when in Japanese mode, if you start typing using a capital letter, it will accept the rest of the text (until hitting return) as English.

Along these lines, I use Ctrl-Caps and Alt-Caps to switch between Hiragana and Katakana respectively, does anyone know the shortcut to switch to Alphas?
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#9
typing l and then a character works the same as x. I remember that as l being for little.
Edited: 2007-09-13, 7:15 pm
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#10
This is a very helpful thread. Smile

I also use the Shift + ALT combo and it's really slick, but no matter how many times I set it to start in hiragana, it always starts in 'abc' input. Then I have to manually select hiragana. From that point on, I can switch back and forth and the hiragana kicks in. But if I close the program/browser and restart, I have to reselect hiragana.

Does anyone know how to start in and stay in hiragana? :/
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#11
dunno if anyone will find this useful, but here is how to type the antiquated characters:
???wyi?
???wye?
getting the katakana (????is the same; just hit the space bar.
i'm on a mac, but i think this will work on windows, too.
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#12
Thora Wrote:*Does anyone know if I can use a hiragana keyboard with English operating system? Or set my existing keyboard to enter hiragana (not romaji)? Or....?
Yes. The IME should be able to do this just fine. However, I would recommend that you don't actually attempt to use hiragana input (vs. romanji input) on an English keyboard. After you learn how to touchtype, it's not too bad, but if you don't know the layout, it's extremely difficult to learn it, especially if you cannot simply look down to see it, as you won't be able to with an English keyboard. The concept is sound though: in theory, you would halve the amount of keystrokes needed to type something, but once you consider dakuten and whatnot, the efficiency is really not that different.

Approach wapuro with a Japanese perspective and it, mostly, makes sense. I'm currently trying to cut out superfluous letters (like the h in shi and s in tsu), but it's pretty hard, heh.
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#13
For ティ, as in the aforementioned パーティ, "thi" works (with the Windows IME anyway). It seems the most straightforward, if not obvious. I used to use the "teli" combo, but it always seemed awkward.
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#14
Not sure what you mean by straightforward. thi = てぃ doesn't seem straightforward or obvious to me, and having a consistent key for small characters seems, conversely, very straightforward.



By the way, the key combo to switch between direct input and "hiragana" mode on non-Japanese Windows is Alt+` (to the left of 1).
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#15
JimmySeal Wrote:By the way, the key combo to switch between direct input and "hiragana" mode on non-Japanese Windows is Alt+` (to the left of 1).
I dunno about windows, but on os X, if you are in hirigana mode, and you hold down the shift key you get katakana, ie bi-ru would be びーる and BI-RU would be ビール.. that seems to be the most convenient way to type in katakana (as long as you arent writing a katakana novel or something) ... i used to switch with the little langauge dropdown menu, but now i just have english and hirigana there which makes it easier..

does anyone know if there is a way to type in straight english without switching back.. (like by holding down another key) .. its not a big deal but i would think there might be a way, as sometimes japanese has some english letters thrown in kindof randomly.. ie DVD is usually DVD, not ディービーディー .. or something like that. (btw, i just found out that dhi works for ディ in case anyone was wondering about that one)
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#16
JimmySeal Wrote:Not sure what you mean by straightforward. thi = てぃ doesn't seem straightforward or obvious to me, and having a consistent key for small characters seems, conversely, very straightforward.
I agree it's not obvious or even logical, but for me it beats "te-li". Maybe I'm wrong about this but ティ in my head sounds like "ti" not "te followed by little i". I go with the nearest approximation. I know I can type the various characters with various codes. I use "ltu" or "ltsu" whenever I need っ by itself. That's not a problem. But "thi", imperfect approximation that it is, flows better, just as for しゃ, "sha" seems to me faster than typing "shi-lya" or "si-xya" or whatever purely systematic variant.

I think there are two approaches, really. Either you follow a consistent, systematic method in which し is "si" or you try to approximate the actual sound, and use "shi". Both methods are valid, but the second seems, to me, more natural. Maybe I'm wrong about this and it hinders my pronunciation. I'm open to comments about that. Nonetheless I use both when needed. "du" for づ falls in the first category. "thi" for ティ seems ok for the second one. In the end, though, it's just a matter of being used to it so you're not slowed down when typing. Whatever works for you!
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#17
Aikiboy Wrote:This is a very helpful thread. Smile

I also use the Shift + ALT combo and it's really slick, but no matter how many times I set it to start in hiragana, it always starts in 'abc' input. Then I have to manually select hiragana. From that point on, I can switch back and forth and the hiragana kicks in. But if I close the program/browser and restart, I have to reselect hiragana.

Does anyone know how to start in and stay in hiragana? :/
I'm not sure how to make it start in hiragana, but I use "alt + caps lock" when I'm in JP mode to switch to hiragana. The problem is if you use "alt + caps lock" again to switch to katakana, it won't go back to hiragana with further "alt + cap lock" presses.

Also, F9 can be handy if you need to switch your text back to the roman alphabet.
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#18
WolfErrant Wrote:Maybe I'm wrong about this but ティ in my head sounds like "ti" not "te followed by little i". I go with the nearest approximation. I know I can type the various characters with various codes. I use "ltu" or "ltsu" whenever I need っ by itself. That's not a problem. But "thi", imperfect approximation that it is, flows better, just as for しゃ, "sha" seems to me faster than typing "shi-lya" or "si-xya" or whatever purely systematic variant.

I think there are two approaches, really. Either you follow a consistent, systematic method in which し is "si" or you try to approximate the actual sound, and use "shi". Both methods are valid, but the second seems, to me, more natural. Maybe I'm wrong about this and it hinders my pronunciation. I'm open to comments about that. Nonetheless I use both when needed. "du" for づ falls in the first category. "thi" for ティ seems ok for the second one. In the end, though, it's just a matter of being used to it so you're not slowed down when typing. Whatever works for you!
im pretty sure that ティ sounds like the name of the letter T .

i think japanese people might tend to use the faster, "si" .. just a guess here.. but once a japanese person wrote something to me, but it was in romanji because i am pretty sure she didnt know if i had japanese on my computer, but i remember being confused for a minute about the 'si' in some word.. but i assume that she typed it like that because thats how she usually types し... (here im making a massive generalization from one person onto all japanese people, but it might be a pretty good one.. i mean, i think that i would rather learn to type the easiest, fastest way i could..)
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#19
si/tu/ti/... are all valid romanizations depending on the system used - there are several standards.

I tend to type using the above since it means less keys to type, but if I am writing something in romaji for someone to read, I use the more common (among foreign learners at least - my Japanese girlfriend uses the above system) shi/tsu/chi/...

Also for ティ etc I've always typed texi. That conflicts with the keypress saving style I use above, but oh well. Maybe I'll switch to 'thi' one day. I didn't actually know about hitting shift to get katakana on OSX, I've always just typed it in hiragana and then hit F7.

For those who want to be able to switch to romaji easily, you can setup a shortcut of your liking in system preferences. I use option+space to switch between romaji and hiragana (handling katakana as stated above) modes. The default on a Japanese installation of OSX is command+space, but that conflicts with spotlight on a default english install. Of course macs in Japan have a dedicated 英数 key to switch with one keypress, although as an option you can get a western keyboard. I don't think it's possible, but I'd really like to convert a key I don't use such as "enter" or the right command key to 英数.
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#20
I highly recommend the following resource on typing Japanese in Mac. It includes a full chart on how to type anything.

http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/TypingJapanese.html.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I don't think it's possible, but I'd really like to convert a key I don't use such as "enter" or the right command key to 英数.
You can probably achieve this effect with a macro program. Pogue recently reviewed several in the NY Times
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#21
Is it possible to rename this thread "Japanese IME"?

Thanks all for all your suggestions. I much prefer using your key commands! (surprising that they are not all listed in IME Help.) I've since read through the IME stuff (zzzzzz). In case any of my findings may be of use to other newbies, thought I'd share them.

*To me, it seems simplest to stay in JP mode. I'll use Alt+` (thx JimmySeal) to switch between hiragana and direct input. For Katakana, I'll use F7. The idea is to avoid having to switch between JP and EN and between Hiragana and Katakana modes (and fewer commands to remember - I'm lazy).

*Note that Alt+` will toggle you between Direct Input and whatever kana mode you were in (not just hiragana). Incidentally, the ` button is to the right of Alt on my keyboard.

*AirCawn's method of using Shift to switch between hiragana and halfalpha is probably the most efficient. Note: You may first have to select this option in the IME settings. Direct Input probably better for longer English text (paragraphs).

*I discovered IME Help has a complete Romaji-Kana Correspondence Chart for Windows. (I now understand that computer input's a bit different. The weird combos are presumably for katakana loan word - curious then that they're not written in katakana.)

*Back to my original zu question: In IME settings, you can actually select autocorrect [kana] ji,zu --> di,du[/kana]. I wouldn't recommend this, however, as its better to learn to use di/du than to have to scroll through the list of possibilities.

*Skylarth's use of the Shift key to switch to katakana appears to apply to Mac only. As mentioned, in windows it switches to halfalpha.

*Aikiboy, I have the same experience with JP always starting in Direct Input mode. In IME settings you can set the default to hiragana, but this doesn't seem to change it. (??)

*And finally (whew!) - kana keyboard. @AirCawn: yeah, I had in mind a hybrid keyboard like I used in Japan. I just wasn't sure if I could use it with my non-japanese windows. I've only ever input using kana (didn't realize it was unusual) and I seem to be a bit romaji-challenged. It feels a bit odd to have one pronounciation in my head and be typing another at times (tap head/rub belly?) I did play around with the kana keyboard option in IME (thanks Megaqwerty! - your name makes me think you're into this stuff?). It seems very similar (only 2 hiragana moved, some symbols, but no shortcut keys). I think you're both right, however, that I should just get used to romaji. The chart will help. And it will be better to be able to type Japanese on any computer/keyboard now that I'm back in Canada.

Ever grateful you're out there.
Edited: 2008-04-23, 4:22 pm
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#22
F keys:

F6 - convert to hiragana. Repeated presses will convert kana to katakana one at a time starting from the beginning. I guess this is useful for typing things like キっていた, or when you hit the spacebar when you didn't mean to.


F7 - convert to katakana. Repeated presses will convert kana to hiragana one at a time starting from the end. Useful for typing things like ツマヅく.

F8 - same as F7 but with half-width katakana (full-width hiragana)

F9 - convert to full-width romaji. Repeated presses will cycle through ALLCAPS, Firstlettercapitalized, and back.

F10 - same as F9, but with half-width romaji
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#23
By the way, if you're using the Microsoft IME and want to type with kana input instead of romaji: There's a little button on the IME bar that says KANA (under the one that says CAPS). Just click that and you'll be typing with kana.
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#24
I think the whole point was that he wanted to avoid messing around with the mouse while typing.
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#25
I think JimmySeal is referring here to switching to kana keyboard (as opposed to switching back and forth bw hira/kata/alpha). Otherwise, you have to muck around in the IME settings. I wasn't aware of that button - thx
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