In this thread I'd like to ask people's advice and opinions on majoring in CompSci in Japan.
I'm an East Asian Studies Major (chinese / japanese) soon to graduate, and hopefully passing the JLPT N1 this July.

I'm interested in going to grad school in Japan. My primary area of interest is CompSci, while my secondary one is Business / Economics. Here my question. Does anyone have experience with CompSci / CompEng programs at Japanese Universities, which ones are good, how hard they are to get into for foreigners, etc?
I heard that Keio and of course Tokyo Institute of Technology are good but I would like to know how hard it is / what steps are required to get in, and what experiences people have in the industry.

hit0mi Wrote:In this thread I'd like to ask people's advice and opinions on majoring in CompSci in Japan.
I'm an East Asian Studies Major (chinese / japanese) soon to graduate, and hopefully passing the JLPT N1 this July.

I'm interested in going to grad school in Japan. My primary area of interest is CompSci, while my secondary one is Business / Economics. Here my question. Does anyone have experience with CompSci / CompEng programs at Japanese Universities, which ones are good, how hard they are to get into for foreigners, etc?
I heard that Keio and of course Tokyo Institute of Technology are good but I would like to know how hard it is / what steps are required to get in, and what experiences people have in the industry.

I'm considering a similar route in grad school and I'll be going from Humanities to STEM field as well. One thing I can tell you though is that getting into the unis may vary. Some the largest universities that might be hurting for a more international base may offer alternate paths for entrance that exclude taking an Entrance exam to get in. Something that I have learned, that many foreigners wishing to enter do though, is they enter as research students which requires no exam, they can take classes and when/if they become full students the classes go to a degree. So what I know some students do is they become a research student and take classes while studying for the entrance exam. You have to be self funded as a research student, but I am pleasantly surprised at how cheap tuition to some schools is over there.

The Japanese don't study that hard in University. No one outside of Japan really recognizes the value of the degree, even if you were to go to Waseda or Toudai. Go to a strong American or British university because they have way more name cache, and everyone knows what Cambridge, University of Chicago, or Harvard are. Even a solid second tier school is preferable to a Japanese university.

You can do upwards of two years studying at a Japanese university with a joint study abroad program, enabling you to study in Japan while still getting a worthwhile degree.

akimoto Wrote:The Japanese don't study that hard in University. No one outside of Japan really recognizes the value of the degree, even if you were to go to Waseda or Toudai.

[ citation needed ] - Do you have anything to back up these two statements? I am interested to read more about universities in Japan.

The one about Japanese not studying hard in University is definitely true. While they work really hard to get into college, once you're in, it seems to be more about 部活 and stuff. They touch on this in IJ, while might not be definitive proof, I think it says something if they put it in a Japanese learner's textbook.

I don't know about how degrees are viewed outside of Japan though. But no, classes in Japanese universities aren't hard. Undergrad, at least..idk about grad schools.

Boy.pockets Wrote:

akimoto Wrote:The Japanese don't study that hard in University. No one outside of Japan really recognizes the value of the degree, even if you were to go to Waseda or Toudai.

[ citation needed ] - Do you have anything to back up these two statements? I am interested to read more about universities in Japan.

I can't comment on the value of Japanese degrees, just because it has never come up.

However, concerning how hard students study in Japanese universities, I can give you some anecdotal confirmation: every Japanese friend or contact that I have asked about this has agreed that the hardest part about studying in a Japanese university is getting in. Once you're there, it appears to be a four-year long party (with some emphasis on networking) with a degree at the end. I can't help thinking there must be more to it than that, which is why I keep asking, but so far that's what I keep hearing.

That said, some of the guys I know are very good at what they do, so I'm pretty sure *they* studied hard.

* Looks like Asriel said pretty much the same thing while I was still typing.

mlorenz Wrote:

Boy.pockets Wrote:

akimoto Wrote:The Japanese don't study that hard in University. No one outside of Japan really recognizes the value of the degree, even if you were to go to Waseda or Toudai.

[ citation needed ] - Do you have anything to back up these two statements? I am interested to read more about universities in Japan.

I can give you some anecdotal confirmation: every Japanese friend or contact that I have asked about this has agreed that the hardest part about studying in a Japanese university is getting in.

That has been my experience too - from the few people I have talked too. But I would *love* some references. I found this article interesting - It is one professor's opinion on the Japanese education system especially the entrance exams.

Quote:One irony of Japan’s education scene lies in the sharp contrast between stringent schools and slack universities. While primary and secondary education in Japan produces highly trained pupils, Japan’s universities remain a resting space or “leisure land” for many youngsters. Exhausted, both mentally and physically, by examination hell, they seek relaxation, enjoyment, and diversion in their university life. Japanese students can afford to be lazy because Japanese firms hire university graduates, not so much on the basis of what and how much they have studied, as on the hensachi ranking of their university. The employment race is more or less over after the university entrance examinations, and grades achieved in university subjects do not significantly alter the situation. University students are aware that employers are not interested in what students have learned in university, and rely on on-the-job training and other intra-company teaching techniques to train their new university graduates.

An Introduction to Japanese Society by Yoshio Sugimoto It starts on page 139 and continues on for a while.
Other interesting quotes in the chapter among a similar thread:

Quote:Higher education means, not so much productive pursuit of knowledge, as a consumption phase of relatively uncontrolled leisure time.

Quote:it is more or less assumed that, once one is admitted to a university, one rarely fails to graduate from it.

Anecdote: I've heard university life referred to as 人生の夏休み on more than a few occasions.

The thing that I always called into question was the difference between undergrad and grad.

It's defiantly true that once you get into a uni for undergrad, the likely hood that you will do anything difficult or have trouble graduating is very minor. GPA isn't a critical thing in this case either since businesses do not care about it.

I have always wondered if graduate school is a different beast though. Most Japanese do not pursue graduate school. I believe the numbers continuing on for even a Masters is strikingly less prevalent than anyone even pursuing a Doctorate.

The thing that has worried me about graduate school in Japan though is how much of an effect it would have on future post-docs or employment into an industry. Namely would the fact that you went to grad school in Japan be viewed more negatively versus if you went in the states? It is very important to know since grad school in Japan is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to the US.

I'm going into a grad program in the states with an exchange semester at the University of Tokyo.

It's a business and economics programs and from what I understand 99% of the Japanese students in the program at Todai are company or institutionally sponsored so they will not be doing any job searching after graduation.

If this trend holds throughout most graduate studies in Japan is would also mean that no Japanese companies will come to recruit at that level.

This isn't too surprising. Its not unheard of, even in the states, for businesses to fund an employee's Master's program. MBAs get this often.

As far as recruiting though. I can defiantly agree that many places probably wouldn't recruit grad level students, but that's similar in the states as well I think. ie: Being overqualified. However, in Japan I think recruiting foreigners for spots in a company probably follows different routes.

I actually seem to recall hearing that 1-2 years ago that there was a spike in grad students in Japan because many students weren't finding jobs and were merely opting to continue to grad school to put off becoming an unemployed graduated student. Apparently having graduated and looking for work is a very bad thing in Japan.

vix86 Wrote:I actually seem to recall hearing that 1-2 years ago that there was a spike in grad students in Japan because many students weren't finding jobs and were merely opting to continue to grad school to put off becoming an unemployed graduated student. Apparently having graduated and looking for work is a very bad thing in Japan.

Yes - I read an article about this some time in the last few months. Students are opting to continue their studies, going from undergrad to grad, simply because they don't want to have any unoccupied time to explain when they go for job interviews. Apparently Japanese companies want *this* year's grads only, so if you don't have something lined up, it's better to still be in school and try again the next year. The students know it's crazy, and one of them even brought it up with an interviewer - the interviewer agreed and could not explain why this was the case, just said that that was the way it's done. And that kind of circular logic - "it's the rule because it's the rule" - is something I've certainly seen before, in Japan.

mlorenz Wrote:And that kind of circular logic - "it's the rule because it's the rule" - is something I've certainly seen before, in Japan.

I hear it from my friends as well. "You have to sandwich a working day between your days off for your week's holiday because that's just how it's done." I'm yet to speak to someone who's working environment isn't laughable. I know a lot of people want to live in Japan and stuff, but I don't know why anyone with a promising future would want to dive-bomb their career there. Especially if you're doing CS; you might as well fry your nerves in advance so you can get used to living with RSI. 30 years is the expected career length for computer-based roles apparently. I doubt you'd care about your non-life enough to feel anything at that point though. Better off causing another mysterious Monday morning train delay.

Just get a job with a western company in Tokyo

kitakitsune Wrote:If this trend holds throughout most graduate studies in Japan is would also mean that no Japanese companies will come to recruit at that level.

I spoke with my Japanese teacher about the possibility of getting a job in Japan through Grad School. She told me that it would be even harder, since Grad School over there is research-based and specializes you into a specific field, making it more difficult since if you apply for a job you're not as "general" as the other applicants.

In addition, she told me that people who go to Grad School over there only go to continue into the path of research and that the benefit in the job search is not as much compared to the disadvantage.

My teacher is a Ph.D candidate in Linguistics at UCLA so she said it may be different in science fields.

Anecdotal story though...

I work in the CS field, and have a PhD in CS, as some background. A lot depends on what you intend to do, but if you want a good background in computer science, I would suggest going to one of the better schools in the US and then doing some other degree in Japan if you want to study there. An MBA might be a very different story.

kitakitsune Wrote:Just get a job with a western company in Tokyo

This.

kainzero Wrote:I spoke with my Japanese teacher about the possibility of getting a job in Japan through Grad School. She told me that it would be even harder, since Grad School over there is research-based and specializes you into a specific field, making it more difficult since if you apply for a job you're not as "general" as the other applicants.

In addition, she told me that people who go to Grad School over there only go to continue into the path of research and that the benefit in the job search is not as much compared to the disadvantage.

This is pretty much the case in the US as well. Although, the "general" thing just doesn't make sense since as a grad student you have the baseline all undergrad have + extra. But this is Japan and hardly anything is logical here.

bertoni Wrote:I work in the CS field, and have a PhD in CS, as some background. A lot depends on what you intend to do, but if you want a good background in computer science, I would suggest going to one of the better schools in the US and then doing some other degree in Japan if you want to study there.

See, this is the sort of thing I have heard from a few other people and it is probably what I'll do. Its just astounding the difference in tuition between good schools in Japan vs US. University of Osaka (#3 in Japan I believe) is like $5,000 A YEAR. Compared to the US where a good university will cost you 14-24,000$ depending on whether you get the "out of state" waiver.

Elite US universities are more like $40,000 these days.
$25,000 would be a bargain.....

vix86 Wrote:This is pretty much the case in the US as well. Although, the "general" thing just doesn't make sense since as a grad student you have the baseline all undergrad have + extra. But this is Japan and hardly anything is logical here.

Well, if you combine that with the fact that companies only hire out of school and not people who have already graduated, then it does kinda make sense...

I suppose the extra 2-3 years they spent researching could've been 2-3 years grooming an employee into the system...

vix86 Wrote:See, this is the sort of thing I have heard from a few other people and it is probably what I'll do. Its just astounding the difference in tuition between good schools in Japan vs US. University of Osaka (#3 in Japan I believe) is like $5,000 A YEAR. Compared to the US where a good university will cost you 14-24,000$ depending on whether you get the "out of state" waiver.

Depends what you mean when you say "good university." In California, generally UC is the "good university" and Cal State isn't, but I feel like they're mostly the same except in a couple fields. And IMO if your university's program isn't top 5 in whatever field and you're not interested in research, I feel like it's all the same on down in terms of prestige and where it'll get you, since networking opportunities are virtually the same.

That said, I don't know how the job hunt works in Japan, and your networking won't mean anything if you try to find a job back home.

I'm a computer engineer and worked at a CS lab at Keio for a while. I can answer if you have some specific questions. There's one thing I don't quite understand though, if your background is in East Asian Studies, how do you intend to start grad school in a CS-related field? Do you already have a good level in programming, computer architecture, networking, maths, etc. and some way of proving it?

The graduate program at Keio isn't bad, but the way labs work in Japan is quite different and will not appeal to everyone. It's very hierarchical and rather strict. For example, if I couldn't show up to a weekly meeting for some reason, I had to email the whole lab to explain and apologize. Meetings could last past 11pm. Sometimes people slept in the lab. YMMV, of course, it really depends on the professor(s).

Economics at Keio has a strong reputation and is fairly open to international students so it could be a good choice as well. Club/circle activities can be very interesting if you have a strong Japanese level.

Quote:spoke with my Japanese teacher about the possibility of getting a job in Japan through Grad School. She told me that it would be even harder, since Grad School over there is research-based and specializes you into a specific field, making it more difficult since if you apply for a job you're not as "general" as the other applicants.

In addition, she told me that people who go to Grad School over there only go to continue into the path of research and that the benefit in the job search is not as much compared to the disadvantage.

The whole point is to apply to positions that are relevant to your Masters/PhD study, not mainstream roles. Non-Japanese people aren't needed for those anyway. I find it hard to believe that Japan doesn't have a use for chemists, biologists, mathematicians and other similar specialists in industry. I don't know about the USA, but lots of companies in the UK look for technical PhD hires. At the company I'm currently interning at, almost everyone seems to have a PhD....

I'm thinking of applying to grad school to start next year myself. I'll probably already have a Masters from my home country by then, but that doesn't include any research so I'll probably have to do another Masters there before doing a PhD program. I'll have to forget about it if I can't get funding though...

The alternative is to just start work here after graduating, but I don't feel my life is going to go anywhere if I do that, and I can't imagine I'd get many opportunities to move to Japan then. :/ Even with a spouse visa job seeking wouldn't be easy without having spent a few years in Japan to get my speaking skills up to scratch...

Quote:I know a lot of people want to live in Japan and stuff, but I don't know why anyone with a promising future would want to dive-bomb their career there.

When I have my whole life ahead of me to work, I wouldn't want to dive-bomb by becoming a worker drone sooner than necessary. >_> Someone who's graduated from a good university at undergrad and gone to a good graduate school to study a technical field is in no position to complain about their prospects.

dizmox Wrote:The whole point is to apply to positions that are relevant to your Masters/PhD study, not mainstream roles. Non-Japanese people aren't needed for those anyway. I find it hard to believe that Japan doesn't have a use for chemists, biologists, mathematicians and other similar specialists in industry. I don't know about the USA, but lots of companies in the UK look for technical PhD hires. At the company I'm currently interning at, almost everyone seems to have a PhD....

When a Japanese company needs a specialist in the industry they will typically sponsor the education of one of their own employees who shows academic promise.

Going to a university and actively recruiting a PhD is very rare in Japan. But much more common in the west.